Anyone one seen The Christ,

[Dirt Man]

In the Beginning:

The closest thing my Webster's Dictionary has to describing what the word sin really means is: to depart from the path of duty prescribed by God.

For those here who don't know the word sin is ancient, and has to do with arrows missing their mark. To miss the mark no matter how close to it you get was called a sin.

Now herein lies the tale of sin:

The first sin ever wasn't committed by Adam and Eve. It was committed by The most beautiful, most powerful, most intelligent, most trusted, and closest to God of all of God's creations to that point, an Angel whose name was Lucifer. In a word, next to God himself, this Lucifer, before this Angel sinned was perfect in every way thought possible. It was even thought amongst the other Angels that he shared the very powers of the creator as one of his Titles was: "The Bright Morning Star." It was a time, well actually, it was a time when there was no time, just everlasting, foreverness if you will. And, Lucifer did create one thing. He created sin.

The saying we know as: “Pride goeth before a fall," came about when Lucifer decided that he was better than the one that created him. Lucifer took pride in being the most beautiful, and most favored of all of God's creation. And many of the vast horde of Angels agreed with him. In fact he became so proud of himself that he actually had the nerve to say something like; "I will ascend to God's throne, I will sit where he sits, and I will be God! These three "I will's" are the creation of all sin, and known throughout creation as a Lie. Making Lucifer the Father of all Liars. As what he said he would do, he could not do. (I'm using male pronouns here as there is no gender amongst Angels, and God's point of view has (Almost)always been referred to in a masculine sense, and as Lucifer felt it had the qualifications to usurp the creator, I will refer to him in the masculine sense here as well.)

Now the creator, being omniscient, and omnipresent of course heard Lucifer’s proclamation, and was immediately hurt, and became profusely pissed off at being stabbed in the back by his greatest creation up to that point of creation. In effect, as God’s law governing causes and effects reveal, Lucifer was about to drink a whole can of Whoop Ass. And let’s face it, when it comes to a God who is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, Lucifer’s goose was about to be cooked to a crisp.

The kindest thing that God could have done to Lucifer right then was snap him out of existence. However to be fair, God created the first courtroom so to speak. He temporarily appointed Justice, as the prosecuting attorney, and Mercy as the defense attorney, and himself as the judge over the whole proceedings as between them they had care, or control over all of the absolute laws in the universe. However as judge he could no longer in all fairness also be a witness. But that’s when a third of the Angelic horde after listening to Lucifer’s lies moved in to back Lucifer taking his side. All of them doing their part to act as character witnesses, or whatever in Lucifer’s defense. Following Lucifer’s coaching some may have even lied for him. However their first sin was taking sides against God. In this their nature was the same as Lucifer’s.

Well, it didn’t take long before a battle in the courtroom ensued spilling out into the universe at large. Planets, and galaxies exploded in the conflagration. Life everywhere was in jeopardy of their very existence, and some had already lost even that in the ricochet effect. It was here, in the middle of chaos that God pounded his gavel stopping everything.

It was obvious to God that if the war continued any further that more Angels might be tainted by the lies of the sinners. And that was intolerable to God. He didn’t want to share eternity with puppets, that’s why he had given the Angel’s free will. But he wasn’t about to spend eternity without real love, and real devotion from his creations either. It was his right, and their privilege in the scheme of creation. The problem he knew immediately lay therefore in his gift of free will. With free will his greatest creations were every bit as able to make decisions about everything, and anything as God was, but without the power to change his laws of absolutes if they happened not to like the way something worked, or the way things were. So he decided he would hold a truce, and suggest an experiment to decide the whole issue. The outcome would decide the fate of all sinners from that moment on.

The parameters of the experiment were suggested, and agreed upon by both sides. In as much as neither side wanted the experiment to last forever God created time. And after that God refined the absolute laws governing time. As it would do no good to hold the experiment in heaven, God picked out a planet damaged by the war on the far side of what would later be known as the Milky Way Galaxy, and calling it Earth let loose his creative energy once again on it repairing, and creating as he willed. He planted a special garden that he called Eden, where he would walk, and talk amongst his ultimate creation for this experiment; Man. He planted two special fruit trees in this garden amongst the many other varieties. The Tree of Life, and the Tree of Knowledge of Good, and Evil. For purposes of the experiment these were the two things in the universe that all Angels had, but that Man did not. For purposes of this experiment man had to be totally innocent, but with Free Will to start with. God, and his Angels could intervene, but he had limitations within which to work with to comply with the parameters of this experiment. Many of which had come from Lucifer’s side of the issue, known as the dark side. Lucifer’s side could intervene, but they too had their limitations. As suggested by the side of light. It was also decided that for Man’s part in this experiment that he was to receive a special gift, and which gift was decided by which way the experiment went, and each individual would in effect decide the fate of their ultimate gift. In the end it came down to which side each individual person picked to live their life. This is where the idea of Black, and White, and no Gray in between came from. You’re either on the side of light, or the side of darkness. In this experiment it was mutually agreed that anything gray goes to the dark side. However, God would have to use Justice, and Mercy to decide each case individually. They both had to be contented for an individual to be considered on the side of light, or otherwise the individual was attached to the dark side’s tally. And of course we all know who suggested this. So like shirts and skins the two sides were ready to see the experiment begin. And this is why we were created. To work out every permutation of the greatest experiment in the universe.

And God created Adam. In his own image like he had with all of the Angels, and with free will. What few people think about is that Almighty, and Man were also able to directly communicate with each other just like the Angels, and Almighty do communicate with each other. Since Adam and Eve only a few humans have been able to do that throughout history, only little more than a handful at that. And in each case God had to initiate the contact.

Whether this was done on other planets in the universe is of no importance. It is however as much as we humans are privy to the beginning as seen through a glass darkly. And even this much is argued about. So we know that Lucifer has been hard at work with his part of the intervening. If it sounds like something out of Star Wars, well then lets just say George stole his idea from the best, and leave it at that. The only choice you have to make in your heart is whether to be on the side of light, or the side of darkness. Well this is already becoming what some would say overly long. The time of the experiment is coming to a rapid close. To say anymore would be to challenge the faith of others, and I already know that I have been saved. Do you?

 

[KenJames]

I had the same questions when I was a child, but I kept them to myself because my church taught me that questioning meant you lacked faith, and lacking faith meant you were doomed.

. . .

Didn't mean this to be a sermon, but when I see someone suffering through the doubts that bothered me throughout my childhood and young adulthood, I like to propose other options so you won't torture youself if you're unable to accept the biblical view.

That is an excellent post. I have basically the same view, but you expressed it far better than I could manage.

 

[Linbido]

Linbido...I agree a little with what you say...i think certain things are illustrations...like the creation story but you can't just dismiss the Old testament so quickly. They we're real people wioth real Faith and Jesus when he came along pointed back to the things they said and on occassions explained them further. The OT points to the Messiah....To Jesus himself.

Also I do see why the idea of the "perfect" human being evolved is an attractive idea....but well if that's so I am completely buggered. I don't have the intelligence needed to grasp the theologies and I sure as hell haven't got the strong will needed to reign in my sinning. I would be off to hell with every bugger else if that was the case.

I didn't say that the OT was to be dismissed, only that very little of it should be read by the letter. Some of it is metaphor, some is fiction to communicate the morale of factulal events, some of it is polished, simplified versions of history. But it doesn't really matter wether or not this or that person mentioned and described ever lived or not. It's the book in whole, the questions and answers about human nature and that of God that it conveys, that is the important thing about it.

Was the "perfect human" part a reply to my post? Cause if it was, than you must have misunderstood me. No man (or woman, duh) is perfect. Quite the opposite, we're practically only Good Enough Quality, but not much more, something that is clearly demonstrated when we act in large crowds. An indvidual can be very sensible and thoughtful. A mob is dumber than feet fungus. And much more dangerous.

So it doesn't matter how complex or simple your belief is what matters is that you do believe. Which is a great relief to me I can tell you.

So I believe it is the death and resurrection of Christ and the belief in that that really matters. As I have said before...this is my belief...I can't 100% say it's the 100% right belief...I'm human afterall.

It works for you and it makes you happy, so you'll get no argument from me. I guess you could say that although I think faith is important, belief in the specific christian scripts is not crucial. In all honesty, Dalai Lama has a better shot at salvation than Jerry Falwell, if you get my drift. Without constant divine reaffirmation, and a church that often equals questioning with sin and damnation, it is not strange that the world is filled to the brink with agnostics. But God loves all his children, both those who do and don't and those who wish to have faith. Live a life according to the basic human guidelines of most religions (do unto others et al) and spead some good in this world, and God will not punish you for being brought up in the wrong heathen corner of the panet. That's what I think.


-Lin

 

[Pure]

English Lady said in part,

So it doesn't matter how complex or simple your belief is what matters is that you do believe. Which is a great relief to me I can tell you.

Many religions are not 'belief' centered, as in the Christian mainstream (the Nicene creed enumerates required items, from Virgin Birth to Jesus' dying for human's salvation).

Judaism, certain 'sects' of Christians--e.g., quakers and mennonites-- emphasize the _doing_ , the way of living. As do buddhists, some of whom have no belief in a god. A couple lines of scripture are quite sufficient to indicate how:

He that loveth his brother abideth in the light 1 John 2:10
....
everyone the doeth righteousness is born of him. 1 John 2:29

Or as previously quoted, Micah the ancient Jewish prophet:

What does the Lord require of thee: to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with the Lord.

Considering the enmities, deaths, and holy wars fought in the over doctrinal differences ("beliefs") --some of us say, regarding religion:

Keep it simple;

Do as directed above and at various other places in the Tanach and NT {Deut 8:6; 13:4; John 15:10; 1 Cor 7:19}. See also the 8 -fold path of Buddhism.

If there's judgment, salvation, 'liberation', it's from how one has lived (Mt 25:33).

J.

Note: "Lin" above has said, similarly:
Live a life according to the basic human guidelines of most religions (do unto others et al) and spead some good in this world, and God will not punish you for being brought up in the wrong heathen corner of the panet.

 

[rgraham666]

A lot of interesting stuff here.

I'm going to be up front here and place myself in the agnostic category. To my mind, believers and atheists are flip sides of the same coin. A believer says there is a God, Allah to Zeus, take your pick. An atheist says there is not.

Both are making statements of faith. They believe a thing that cannot be proven. There is no evidence, in my opinion, of the existence of God. There's no evidence against it either.

As an agnostic, I don't know. I can't know. And I ceased worrying about it some time ago.

My faith is that the important thing is to be a good person, to in some small way, leave this universe in better shape than when I arrived in it. And it is a matter of faith. I can't prove this is the truth. I can only hope.

And it took a long time, a great deal of mental sweat to get to this point. I lost all my faith, not only in God, but in my species, those close to me and even myself. I hope that happens never happens to any of you. It is a hideously bleak place to occupy.

But just enough hope remained that I managed to survive and rebuild my faith.

Now my faith is to be a good person, to act towards other people and the world with empathy, wisdom and courage.

I believe that will be enough. I don't know if God exists, but I have faith that if She does, She will be more concerned with my actions than my beliefs.

 

[Guest]

Just a reminder. A number of atheists died for our sins:

Here's a quote from one of my favorite atheists:



Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one


The same man also gave us a wonderful parable:


A Suprise for Little Bobby

It was little Bobby's birthmark today and he got a suprise. His very fist was jopped off, (The War) and he got a birthday hook!

All his life Bobby had wanted his very own hook; and now on his 39th birthday his pwayers had been answered. The only trouble was they had send him a left hook and ebry dobby knows that it was Bobby's right fist that was missing as it were.

What to do was not thee only problem: Anyway he jopped off his lest hand and it fitted like a glove. Maybe next year he will get a right hook, who knows?


Beautiful.

 

[Guest]

Beautiful.

As you are. Only popped in here when I saw your name. P.

 

[Couture]

The kindest thing that God could have done to Lucifer right then was snap him out of existence. However to be fair, God created the first courtroom so to speak. He temporarily appointed Justice, as the prosecuting attorney, and Mercy as the defense attorney, and himself as the judge over the whole proceedings as between them they had care, or control over all of the absolute laws in the universe. However as judge he could no longer in all fairness also be a witness. But that’s when a third of the Angelic horde after listening to Lucifer’s lies moved in to back Lucifer taking his side. All of them doing their part to act as character witnesses, or whatever in Lucifer’s defense. Following Lucifer’s coaching some may have even lied for him. However their first sin was taking sides against God. In this their nature was the same as Lucifer’s.

But being omnipresent etc., shouldn't God have known all the mischief this Lucifer character would be?

And then these other angels took Lucifer's side. And then God couldn't be witness. If God knows everything and is all powerful, then why in the world wouldn't he be judge juror and witness? And why would there have been some sort of court for the angels when there was open mutiny, and I get sent to hell because I have a hard time in believing in this stuff that sounds like so like a Lord of the Rings novel.

 

[Couture]

The parameters of the experiment were suggested, and agreed upon by both sides. In as much as neither side wanted the experiment to last forever God created time. And after that God refined the absolute laws governing time. As it would do no good to hold the experiment in heaven, God picked out a planet damaged by the war on the far side of what would later be known as the Milky Way Galaxy, and calling it Earth let loose his creative energy once again on it repairing, and creating as he willed. .....

So that's what this is...some sort of experiment...maybe even a wager. No actually, see, that's more believable of everything I've heard so far. I can sort of see life could be like that movie with Eddie Murphy and Dan Akroyd...Trading Spaces...no Trading Places. Anyway, these two old men bet a dollar on whether or not Eddie Murphy, the bum, could change places with Dan Akroyd.

But see, that doesn't really leave me with a loving God image. If God were really a loving God, I think he would be down here helping out a little more.

 

[Guest]

So that's what this is...some sort of experiment...maybe even a wager. No actually, see, that's more believable of everything I've heard so far. I can sort of see life could be like that movie with Eddie Murphy and Dan Akroyd...Trading Spaces...no Trading Places. Anyway, these two old men bet a dollar on whether or not Eddie Murphy, the bum, could change places with Dan Akroyd.

But see, that doesn't really leave me with a loving God image. If God were really a loving God, I think he would be down here helping out a little more.

Like Albert Einstein, I don't believe God plays dice: He strikes me as more of a "Super Mario" kind of guy.

 

[Pure]

From the look of things, I'd say it's more "Grand Theft Auto."

 

[Guest]

From the look of things, I'd say it's more "Grand Theft Auto."

Pure, I was going to say that myself, but I thought it might have been considered blasphemous.

Anyhow, I think it may be "Tetris"...

 

[English Lady]

Ok...I'm not operating at my best today (been to the dentist i've got a lovely abscess...and lots of pain!) So I will be brief.


I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John10 7-11


Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 14:6

Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day


John 6:35-40






Ephesians 2


Made Alive in Christ

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Ephesians 2:1-10



All biblical basings for what I believe...I'm not pushing it on anyone else....just showing where it comes from.


I will think about the other issues brought up recently and will reply to them at a later point...


Although God might know everything but he can't force angels/people to do his bidding because of that free will thing....

Ok gonna shut up becase i am sure i'm not making much sense*L*

 

[NoJo]

In the Beginning:

The closest thing....

....Do you?

Phew! I hope you feel better now you've shared that, DM. I know I do.

 

[rgraham666]

Like Albert Einstein, I don't believe God plays dice: He strikes me as more of a "Super Mario" kind of guy.

I liked Stephen Hawkings comeback to that line: "Not only does He play dice, He cheats."

 

[SlickTony]

I've heard it said that God does not play dice with the universe, but he does bat it around and then loses it under the sofa.

 

[KarenAM]

English Lady and shereads, thank you both so much for your kind posts. I've given them both a lot of thought.

Shereads, your theology has a grace which I can appreciate, but it's hard to feel close to a God who is so detached. If God created us because he/she is lonely, why not interact with us more? Do we have smelly feet or something?

And I'm sorry I still don't get it with Christianity; people here have been saying a lot of things and quoting a lot of passages from the Bible, but as always before in my life, this just confuses me. I read the Adam and Eve stuff you posted, EL, and it talks about a serpent, but not about the Devil. Why do people say it was the Devil who got them to eat the fruit if the Bible doesn't say it was?

Then God punishes them for it:

So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."

To the woman he said,

"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'

"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

But everyone says the punishment was that they got kicked out of Eden, even though the Bible says:

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Why does God say "us"? Is there more than one God? And doesn't this say that they got kicked out because God didn't want them to eat from this other tree and live forever, not because they'd eaten from the tree of knowledge? Are we just like God? Was God afraid of them? Is God afraid of us? I thought that maybe I'd read it wrong but when I looked at my Bible it said just what you posted.

Again, please forgive my ignorance, everyone; I'm just trying to understand this stuff. I know several people whose Christian faith has done so much good for them, but whenever they try to explain it to me it just confuses me. I don't think I'm stupid, but I sure feel overwhelmed by all the knowledge here.

I hope your abcess gets better soon and doesn't hurt too much, English Lady!

 

[Dirt Man]

English Lady and shereads, thank you both so much for your kind posts. I've given them both a lot of thought.

Shereads, your theology has a grace which I can appreciate, but it's hard to feel close to a God who is so detached. If God created us because he/she is lonely, why not interact with us more? Do we have smelly feet or something?

And I'm sorry I still don't get it with Christianity; people here have been saying a lot of things and quoting a lot of passages from the Bible, but as always before in my life, this just confuses me. I read the Adam and Eve stuff you posted, EL, and it talks about a serpent, but not about the Devil. Why do people say it was the Devil who got them to eat the fruit if the Bible doesn't say it was?

Then God punishes them for it:



But everyone says the punishment was that they got kicked out of Eden, even though the Bible says:



Why does God say "us"? Is there more than one God? And doesn't this say that they got kicked out because God didn't want them to eat from this other tree and live forever, not because they'd eaten from the tree of knowledge? Are we just like God? Was God afraid of them? Is God afraid of us? I thought that maybe I'd read it wrong but when I looked at my Bible it said just what you posted.

Again, please forgive my ignorance, everyone; I'm just trying to understand this stuff. I know several people whose Christian faith has done so much good for them, but whenever they try to explain it to me it just confuses me. I don't think I'm stupid, but I sure feel overwhelmed by all the knowledge here.

Next time, and every time after that, before you read your bible ask God for his spirit to enter you, and reveal what he will to your understanding. It's that simple. Then you will be able to make up your own mind about all of this. And that's all that God wants you to do right now. See my previous post on this page for the answer to US.

As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man

 

[Pure]

Hi Dirt Man,

It's a little hard to respond to extensive pastings of long passages, and little thread linking them.

But taking this for example.

Made Alive in Christ

Ephesians 2:1-10

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

Let us suppose that either Jews or people in general including Jews are being addressed.

If you read Exodus, Deuteronomy etc. didn't God set up the Jewish religion. Its laws, its prophets.

This is for a couple thousand years. Are you saying, all those people were 'dead in their transgressions.'? entirely victims of their 'sinful nature'? That is to say, God provided NO effective means of man's getting forgiven, receiving grace etc.

Are you really saying that God in 4 BC looked down as said "Holy Shit, this is just not working. The laws, the priesthood. The prophets I've spoken through. Things are so desperately bad that a really strong wake up call is necessary, and a NEW really strong means of dealing with sin (faith in JC)." ?

This does not make sense. To put it bluntly. If God through revelation, prophecy, prayer contact couldn't get it right the first time, and bungled it; why do we think he got it right the second time. The problem of the Jews, which Paul wrestles with in Romans, is a tough one. And Paul, there, iirc, says that the Jews are NOT cut off from God; there is a temporary hardening, but no fundamental defect in the law and procedures (circumcision) etc. If Paul wrote Ephesians, it's plain that that passage gives a radically incomplete, if not incorrect view of things.

Surely the obvious conclusion, in a theistic framework, is that God got it right the first time. Nothing necessary could be lacking,
which Jesus would have supplied when he turned up in the 20s CE .

 

[smutpen]

Wow.

First, let me say that I'm somewhere between impressed and amazed at the knowledge, the thoughtfulness, and especially the civility exhibited on all sides of this discussion. Even for a community of writers, this is exceptional.

So many issues have come up; I'll try to address just a few. Since I state my case as strongly as I can, I'll offer some preliminary disclaimers. My beliefs force me to acknowledge that I am but one glorified ape. I can make no claims of infallibility or secret knowledge. Also, my beliefs force me to hold sacred the right of all humans to believe as they will; morality, crucially for me, can only be related to what people do. Never what they believe. In other words, works, not faith; but more on that later.


EL; the NIV version, to me, reads just as obviously as KJ to be a Promethean story in which a jealous God denies the gifts of sentience and immortality to his creations. That despite the fact that your quote leaves out God's revealing soliloquy in Gen 3:22 to 24. Does the NIV omit those verses?

If God was only voicing his sad recognition of the fate to be caused by guilt and worry and such, why did he throw them out and set guards on the Tree of Life to keep them from it? Another thing to realize is that without a moral sense we would not be human; it is representative of sentience, of the set of qualities that set us apart from other animals. The serpent, in this story, sneaks us the gift of humanity against God's will.


There is nothing whatsoever, by the way, in Genesis, to indicate any connection between the serpent and Satan. Even Satan, in the OT generally (more properly The Satan, a title meaning the adversary or accuser, whose role seems to be as a confidant, familiar and servant of God responsible for prosecuting humans in the court of divine justice) has little to do with the much more recent concept of the Devil. The Devil appears to be an artifact somewhat of Jewish belief by the time of the later prophets, and much more so of Christian belief.

I also found it -- suggestive -- that you were so willing to write off the nakedness thing as symbolic, yet you accept the literal truth of things that strain the credibility of reason and our common everyday experience. It seems that you swallow a camel and strain at a gnat.

Sorry, I couldn't resist...



I am an atheist; but that's a poor label. It describes only the negative. I don't believe in Santa or the Devil either, or fairies in the garden.

To speak positively, I am a humanist. My concern is for humans; I believe human morality must put the interests of humans above all other things. With regard to the rest of nature, it serves us pragmatically to protect and preserve nature. It serves us spiritually (obviously, I mean something different than most by that word) to revere nature.

But to place such abstractions as the 'cleanliness' or 'righteousness' of an alleged supernatural being above the interests of humanity seems to me not only repugnant to reason, but fraught with horrific danger. This is not some hypothetical danger, but one which we all know has been manifested again and again throughout human history. (Actually, it's really only since the rise of monotheism, but that's a different essay...)

As Thomas Jefferson said:

On the dogma of religion...all mankind..have been quarreling, fighting, burning, and torturing one another for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind...

This is the triumph of faith over reason, a cultural phenomenon which I fear and despise. To explain my passion about these issues, consider this: when they burned heretics at the stake, they called it the auto da fe -- "Act of Faith."

It takes a lot of faith in abstracts to light another human being on fire -- not for anything they've done -- but because they believe differently than you.

When the hijackers aimed those planes at the twin towers, that, too, was an Act of Faith.

Faith acts the same, for good and ill, regardless of whether the object of that faith is Jesus or Allah or Buddha or whatever.

Early in the development of Christianity, a great battle took place, a battle for the very soul of the Church. A battle over whether faith or works takes precedence. What you believe, or what you do. Faith won out. It's my opinion that the bad guys won, and that much suffering has resulted. Only the Epistle of James remains of all the writings of the losing side.

The movie that started this thread, by focusing on the last twelve hours of Jesus' life, not only neglects to impart any significant part of Jesus' teachings (which I think more often than not reflect wisdom and compassion), it follows the tradition of elevating the supernatural and irrational aspects of the belief to the prime position.

The notion of magically transferring human guilt to a sacrifical animal, and then punishing the animal in the human's place, far pre-dates Judeo-Christian belief. It is an illogical and shameful attempt by humans to avoid responsibility for their own actions.

It was so prevalent in early humans the Asian settlers of the America's were already infected with it at least 11,000 years ago, probably long before.

But I know that I am responsible for my own actions. That responsibility cannot be shifted from me in any way; not by repentance, not by attempting to repair or make amends for harm done. But at least such things are a reasonable way to deal with that responsibility.

As for the notion that the shed blood of an animal, or a human, or even a God could magically relieve me of my responsibility, I think it impossible, and I would not wish it to be possible.

And then there's the resurrection.

I believe that the wild denial of the simple and obvious reality of death, the frantic desire for a big alpha male to magically grant meaning to our existence so that we need not shoulder the responsiblility for it ourselves, is a terrible cultural failing, a cowardice and dishonesty which permeates most of modern humanity like a hideous plague.

Please understand that I don't feel this about individual believers; as I said, I judge people on their actions, not on their beliefs. It is natural to believe what the people around us believe. Statistically speaking, if some devout Christian here had been born in Saudi Arabia, there's an overwhelming likelihood that they'd be a devout Muslim. That, of course, is another item the Christian God (and the Muslim God as well) neglects to account for in his willingness to torture for all eternity the people who displease him.

But the fact is, in every religion and tradition there are good people and bad. This often bears no detectable relationship to the depth of their faith.

There are beautiful, powerful truths in all the world's great religious traditions; there are great evils in all as well. To my mind, everything of value relates to human reality, to issues important in human life on earth. Largely, the great traditions agree on such issues.

The wildly varying notions about supernatural entities and events and their significance, however, I would discard like so much offal. For it is over such things that hatred and persecution and torture and murder are inflicted on real living breathing human beings who feel real pain, just like you and me.

:sigh:

This is getting long and melodramatic, and I have things to do.

But I'll have to stop back later. I still want to explain why I would disagree with the agnostic sentiment eloquently stated by rgraham666. Atheism is not the obverse of the coin of belief. It can be a position of faith, but many, if not most, atheists are guided by reason.

I also want to address the question, raised here, which philosophers call the Problem of Evil (God is all powerful, God is all good, evil exists). Briefly, I consider the Free Will answer to be a clever feat of Christian apologetical legerdemain that holds water like a seive, and I'm astounded that so many thinking people accept it at face value.

Finally, I'd like to address the whole Satan thing. Basically, I consider it to be a propaganda story, an example of how belief systems only survive by pandering to the power structures of the societies they inhabit. Lucifer's crime, in essence, was that he didn't keep his place, didn't bow his head to the king.

Etymologists say that in its earliest usage in English, the word "evil" meant something very like, "uppity." The American Revolution, with its denial of the divine right of Kings, its repudiation of hereditary aristocracy, would have been considered utterly Satanic by almost all of the powerful people of Europe a century before, and was considered so by many even when it occurred.

More later...

 

[shereads]

Shereads, your theology has a grace which I can appreciate, but it's hard to feel close to a God who is so detached. If God created us because he/she is lonely, why not interact with us more? Do we have smelly feet or something?

Maybe we are the interaction. Some eastern religions are centered upon the idea that all things are connected - we are pieces of God. Separate in this life, but perhaps not always separate. Imagine an endless dance of spirits, coming together, celebrating, falling away, cherishing our independence, then needing to find and connect with each other again. I don't imagine a god that is he or she, but us - only better. Effortlessly powerful and peaceful, fully understanding. Patient. Not controlling the laws of physics, but exisiting with and apart from the physical just as we do. Watching us, loving us, eager for the time when we will each recognize who and what we are.

Or not; I could be wrong.



But it feels right to me, and it's brought me peace. That's enough.

 

[shereads]

A lot of interesting stuff here.

I'm going to be up front here and place myself in the agnostic category. To my mind, believers and atheists are flip sides of the same coin. A believer says there is a God, Allah to Zeus, take your pick. An atheist says there is not.

Both are making statements of faith. They believe a thing that cannot be proven. There is no evidence, in my opinion, of the existence of God. There's no evidence against it either.

As an agnostic, I don't know. I can't know. And I ceased worrying about it some time ago.

My faith is that the important thing is to be a good person, to in some small way, leave this universe in better shape than when I arrived in it. And it is a matter of faith. I can't prove this is the truth. I can only hope.

Nicely said. I was going to say "amen," but that's overused.



I know athiests who preach their faith with an intensity to equal anything in evangelical christianity. It seems to me that atheism is its own religion; I think of a religion as a group who believe that their understanding of the nature of the universe is the only one that can possibly be true.

There are terrifying effects of absolute belief and absolute faith. If you want to read a genuinely chilling example of how a chosen one of God might behave - and feel absolved of any guilt because he was doing as commanded by God - read "Under the Banner of Heaven," by Jon Krakauer who wrote "Into Thin Air."

Based on his research and prison interviews, "Banner" tells the true story of two men who brutally murdered their sister-in-law and their two-year-old niece because God told them these two souls were in the way of His work. The interviews will chill you to the bone - The voice of madness, describing an act of horrific violence and torture, yet the man is so calm and seemingly at peace with his actions that you can't help but believe that he believes he is God's Chosen.

Jon Krakauer's literary reputation rests on insightful chronicles of lives conducted at the outer limits. In UNDER THE BANNER OF HEAVEN, he shifts his focus from extremes of physical adventure to extremes of religious belief within our own borders. At the core of his book is an appalling double murder committed by two Mormon Fundamentalist brothers, Ron and Dan Lafferty, who insist they received a revelation from God commanding them to kill their blameless victims. Beginning with a meticulously researched account of this "divinely inspired" crime, Krakauer constructs a multilayered, bone-chilling narrative of messianic delusion, savage violence, polygamy, and unyielding faith. Along the way, he uncovers a shadowy offshoot of America's fastest-growing religion, and raises provocative questions about the nature of religious belief.

Yes, I know that there are extremes within any group. One man's religion is another man's cult. But when we wonder what could have compelled the 9/ll hijackers to do what they did in the name of religion, we don't have to study Islamic extremists.

One of the murdering brothers whom Krakauer interviewed is asked, "What's the difference between your faith and Osama bin Laden's?" The answer isn't flippant; in fact, Krakauer writes that the man grew quiet for a while and seemed genuinely thoughtful. His answer: "I guess we must seem alike to you, but the difference is that he serves a false God; I serve the one true God."

If I sound proud of being agnostic, it's not so much that as a feeling of peace in having accepted that it's okay not to know. Maybe it's better than okay, to be open to the idea that this life is an adventure whose end we won't know until we get there. It doesn't scare me, because there's no evidence that anything awaits us after death that's more horrible than what we do to each other here on earth.

 

[shereads]

That is an excellent post. I have basically the same view, but you expressed it far better than I could manage.

Some people have a way with words and some people, oh, not have way, I guess.

-- Steve Martin

 

[shereads]

Thanks for the Shereads you've put alot of yourself in that post

Your enthusiasm is contagious...You're so quiet here in AH most of the time, and when you have something to say it's always interesting, and reveals a person I'd like to know better. You're a joy.

 

[KenJames]

Some people have a way with words and some people, oh, not have way, I guess.

-- Steve Martin

I think you're being too modest.