ARCHIVAL DISCUSSION to 11-14-08

[Black Tulip]

as the viaga ad says, 'i'm back!'

thanks to black tulip and others who have helped out!

Hi Pure,

Nice to have you back and cleaning the house. LOL

I assume you haven't read my question about posting the rewrite on one of my stories. Can I post it in the original thread?
There don't seem to be any stories to discuss right now.

 

[Pure]

sure black t.,

post the new version and bump the thread, if you haven't already.

 

[Pure]

fall lineup

hi folks,
now that everyone is vacationed out, let's talk about a fall lineup.

volunteers?

ALSO: Black Tulip has posted a revised story, in the midst of these late summer doldrums, and I encourage people to have a look at least at the first segment.

 

[Pure]

i gather malachiteink

has left. i hope some of those in contact with her will convey my and others' respects. she has a lot to offer.

j.

 

[Pure]

hello

i have posted a kind of 'ad' in the Authors' Hangout. if anyone(s) here would like to say more about our process and any benefits you have, from it, that would be appreciated. it will help keep the ad 'bumped,' also.

thanks,

j.

 

[poppy1963]

Hello, SDC!

I started a thread in this section today and am hoping it wasn't the wrong place. I probably should have inquired first but it seemed to fit best in my opinion and I made the thread. If it is NOT the right place, please move it, or let me know who I should contact about having it moved. Please forgive my unintenional offense for not checking first.

The thread is Poppy's Castle Story Work Thread...This is something that has begun developing in a fantasy Playground thread and I did not want to turn that world into a story working thread...so I am looking for a place to have that. Perhaps I could have started such right at the PG...but I knew it really didn't belong there either.

How can I make this right?

Poppy

 

[Joesephus]

A newbie question

Okay, I'm not a complete newbie but I'm still a computer klutz. I've submitted a story that I know has some typos and other minor problems. It should post tonight or Saturday. I'd like to fix them, but I don't want to postpone the story posting. What happens if I post an edited version?

Also, since I'm interested in getting the story critiqued here, how does that process work?

 

[Pure]

hi joe

you story can be posted here, in its own thread, when it's ready, and you receive the 'green light,' from me. you may post the corrected version, if you want.

see how the threads are labeled, e.g., 'story discussion' and someone's name. that's what it would look like.

what's required under the 'special offer' is that you submit a critique or set of comments on one of these 'story discussion' selections. i'd suggest either Rumple's or Penelope's, since Malachiteink is not around for the time being.
=====

tentatively, the plan is for you to go soon, and Selena, after.

 

[poppy1963]

Thank you very much, Pure...the story goes on...and needs much reworking from the posts into prose......this is a fascinating process to me. I hope it is for the participants here as well. I will be developing a story from the dialogues I have with patrons of my thread in The Playground.

Is this not amazing? I'm writing a story with people from all around the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is amazing...we are so lucky.

 

[Pure]

Hi Poppy,
If a thread is about a serious writing issue, it can stand. Or if you want some comments on development of something by you.

I don't quite understand the thread's contents yet, since there appear to be ten postings by you. Is this an ongoing story for the Playground. Is it ever supposed to be self standing?

If yes, fine, we'll keep it here for now.

Is this a kind of free for all? If this is a kind of group play effort by several of you at the playground, i'm less interested. Maybe it should be posted there. But i'll leave things for now.

You might make it clear to readers what's going on, in the first post of the thread.







Hello, SDC!

I started a thread in this section today and am hoping it wasn't the wrong place. I probably should have inquired first but it seemed to fit best in my opinion and I made the thread. If it is NOT the right place, please move it, or let me know who I should contact about having it moved. Please forgive my unintenional offense for not checking first.

The thread is Poppy's Castle Story Work Thread...This is something that has begun developing in a fantasy Playground thread and I did not want to turn that world into a story working thread...so I am looking for a place to have that. Perhaps I could have started such right at the PG...but I knew it really didn't belong there either.

How can I make this right?

Poppy

 

[poppy1963]

Oh..it IS a serious writing...I just haven't walked this way before...

As I said...it's experimental. Put it wherever you see fit. I like not "fitting" really...so...whatever you see fit...call me Hunter. LOL! In my own realm.

Hi Poppy,
If a thread is about a serious writing issue, it can stand. Or if you want some comments on development of something by you.

I don't quite understand the thread's contents yet, since there appear to be ten postings by you. Is this an ongoing story for the Playground. Is it ever supposed to be self standing?

If yes, fine, we'll keep it here for now.

Is this a kind of free for all? If this is a kind of group play effort by several of you at the playground, i'm less interested. Maybe it should be posted there. But i'll leave things for now.

You might make it clear to readers what's going on, in the first post of the thread.







Hello, SDC!

I started a thread in this section today and am hoping it wasn't the wrong place. I probably should have inquired first but it seemed to fit best in my opinion and I made the thread. If it is NOT the right place, please move it, or let me know who I should contact about having it moved. Please forgive my unintenional offense for not checking first.

The thread is Poppy's Castle Story Work Thread...This is something that has begun developing in a fantasy Playground thread and I did not want to turn that world into a story working thread...so I am looking for a place to have that. Perhaps I could have started such right at the PG...but I knew it really didn't belong there either.

How can I make this right?

Poppy

 

[Pure]

hi poppy

i've looked again at your thread. as i said, i don't see a problem if a small group of people are developing a story.

the thread however could get a better look and feel, in my opinion, if you were not simply reproducing others' comments, which i gather were already posted. could not the others post, themselves, to the thread? if not already, starting now?

the look now is that we have a kind of 'mirror site' or merely archive of a conversation that's occurring, in its entirety, elsewhere. that may deter participants. as a moderator i'd discourage simple mirroring, though of course youre free to discuss one set of issues about a story in one location and another set in another location.

 

[Pure]

QUESTION FOR THE REGULARS? (comment from all are welcome)

I've had this idea that our process appears too forbidding and only suited to the pro or would be pro.

Probably reinforced this impression, when, a couple years back, I proposed the nature of a critique in terms of formality and addressing a list of technical issues (see the thread, 'what's going on here.'

What do you say to now offering people a choice: 1) The author may request feedback for the amateur; this would be descriptive and non-evaluative in general, and include the reader's response. This would be mostly positive and quite supportive, and simply "feedback" as Killer Muffin was trying for, way back. "Feedback" is an articulate reader's reactions, including puzzlements, but without a (overall) critical and advisory component: [e.g.] 'I see a shortcoming in the area of character that you should fix' as opposed to, "Cardboard characters. Redo. Flesh out."


Choice 2) would be more or less as now: The author may request a rigorous critique for the would-be pro or pro.


Of course we have to label the alternatives and describe them neutrally, so there is no connotation of "Choice 1 is for the wuss who can't take it, and choice 2 is for the 'tough' expert with the cojones to deal with what's meted out." Of course I don't want to trivialize the critique area, esp if we set up an alternative approach, a more gentle type of response/feedback. I don't think purely 'feel good' comments are suited in either choice of approach

===
PS Below I have given descriptions of the two choices. First is the completely new description for 'feedback.' Second the same old 'critique,' just slightly modified.

NEW DESCRIPTION OF "Feedback for the new or amateur writer."
{first draft--comments?}

This is to be neutral description or constructive comment. There are generally NOT to be evaluations of the work as a whole. Where you are tempted to evaluate a given area, please rephrase: Instead of 'characters stink; cardboard.' 'I am not taken with any of the characters.' IOW the focus is on reaction as an individual reader to particular features or points.

Most important is to identify the strengths of the work, in any areas such as style, flow, surprise, plotting, impact on reader, eroticism. Be specific and say why you like what you do.

You may, of course, express your puzzlements or dissatisfactions briefly, and let's say, in passages not amounting to more than 20% of your feedback piece. ("I do not understand why Jane returned to her fiance's house after being kidnapped for a week.") You are not being asked to sugar coat anything or make insincere praise. Sometimes silence is golden.

IF you're wondering about details as to what to write about someone's story, remember yourself when first you wrote something and showed it to a teacher. Remember what made it a good experience or a bad one. Act accordingly.

==
Second choice is very much the same as before; slightly softened.
[revised description of critique]

What is a critique? For our purposes, critique is an organized set of comments on the strengths and weaknesses of the story in respect of such issues as (take your choice)--

choice of words,
style,
structure, overall
clarity and coherence, overall
dramatic values,
emotional impact [on the reader],
erotic effects [on the reader],
character.

You, as a reader, have every right to give your considered opinions on these issues, regardless of your writing abilities or writing achievements. That is to say, you are a reader, and authors address *readers,* not 'literary experts,' English teachers, published authors or Grand Poobahs of the Erotic Authors Association.

When commenting, it is essential to offer encouragement where there are at least some areas of strength or merit. Look at the above list, and pick those areas where you see merit, and name some of them, and tell *why* you think the writer has succeeded, in that respect.

Do as you would be done by. Give comments having the sort of tact and respect which *you* would like to be shown, were you receiving. A "Critique" is to be balanced, and normally inclined to the positive; it is not merely a compendium of errors and failings.

Weaknesses in the writing should be discussed factually--indeed, pointing them out may be offered as opinion--without animosity. The author's character is not the topic. Nor is his or her education. Try for a degree of diplomacy generally, and such approach is vital in making *suggestions* as to remedies. In other words, the spirit we want here is, "You might try this," rather than, "Here's what you have to do to fix this defect."

 

[Matadore]

A need filled

Very well done, Pure

Thanks

 

[Pure]

thanks, matadore

your feedback is appreciated.

what do you think of setting of the option of nonevaluative, neutral or constructive feedback for the new authors and rank amateurs (like myself)? feedback about reactions more than evaluations would be sought. possibly there would be evaluations of microfeatures, but not overall ones. ("It's not believable that Sally would discover Henry, at that point, in the pantry with her mom; earlier the mom was said to be in another city." COMPARED TO "Your story line often strains credulity and overall is fatally flawed.")

IOW, i did not merely intend to soften critiques a bit, as in the new writeup, but have a rather different alternative.

 

[Penelope Street]

I had this idea that our process appears too forbidding

Me too.

I think the queue requirements may be part of the problem. How many authors even qualify to submit a story at present? Maybe we should let anyone join the queue, but give preference to those who have critiqued in the past. It's kind of silly having no story to discuss for months on end, isn't it?

I like the idea of giving the author more say in what kind of discussion they want, but I think expecting reviewers to read and remember even more complex guidelines than before may be expecting a bit much. I think we all have a good idea how many people really read sticky threads.

What if the author simply says what they are trying to achieve with the story and submits a series of questions? Like maybe this:

I'm trying to write a scary Halloween story, but I want it to be sexy too. Did you feel, even for a moment, like the heroine was in danger? Was the perfume scene amusing or just silly? Was the erotic scene arousing? Did the ending surprise you? What's the best category for this story?

This way, all anyone needs do is read the story and answer the questions. A reviewer doesn't need to know any rules, guidelines, or anything else, beyond what's in the thread. If the author wants a gentle review, ask questions like, "What did you like best about the story?", "Who's your favorite character?" and "What's one way the story could be improved?"

Is that too simple?

Too many seem to feel unqualified to join in and that's really kinda sad. I loved the whole 'grand poobah' comment- maybe we could include something like that at the beginning of each thread emphasizing that everyone is welcome?

 

[Pure]

jeez, you're making all my OCD symptoms kick up a fuss.

to solve the problem of available stories, i have been letting a few drop ins, e.g., "Jeninflorida's" which i see you commented on.
i have tended to move the offerings of utter virgins who stumbled in.

i do like the idea of the author's requests to answer questions. but surely that wouldn't deter the hardass folks like me from saying, "you want to hear about your characters... well...." that's why i like the idea of a 'soft or 'hard' option--Harlequin or 120 Days of Sodom.

i do see the problem of looking too accomplished and threatening. there are many lurkers in all forums who are scared to say a peep.

what i'm trying to figure is how to be more than the 'story feedback' forum. i don't want a deluge--after all, hundreds of stories are submitted to LIT every day. the other thing I don't want is the 'do me for free' attitude: I knock off 1000 words overnight and send it to others to read and fix, gratis, while i do more important things like my next 'baby does daddy' story. Indeed some in the past, after an initial request and feedback have disappeared.

 

[Black Tulip]

Pure, I can see your problem but I don't have a solution. Sorry.

I agree with you, however, that this should be more than the Feedback Forum.
How can we be less frightening?

 

[SweetErika]

jeez, you're making all my OCD symptoms kick up a fuss.

to solve the problem of available stories, i have been letting a few drop ins, e.g., "Jeninflorida's" which i see you commented on.
i have tended to move the offerings of utter virgins who stumbled in.

i do like the idea of the author's requests to answer questions. but surely that wouldn't deter the hardass folks like me from saying, "you want to hear about your characters... well...." that's why i like the idea of a 'soft or 'hard' option--Harlequin or 120 Days of Sodom.

i do see the problem of looking too accomplished and threatening. there are many lurkers in all forums who are scared to say a peep.

what i'm trying to figure is how to be more than the 'story feedback' forum. i don't want a deluge--after all, hundreds of stories are submitted to LIT every day. the other thing I don't want is the 'do me for free' attitude: I knock off 1000 words overnight and send it to others to read and fix, gratis, while i do more important things like my next 'baby does daddy' story. Indeed some in the past, after an initial request and feedback have disappeared.

I'm new to this corner of Lit because I'm one of the people who felt it a bit threatening up until I re-read the stickies today. Given that, I'll offer my $.02 on the above/current discussion.

After reading your sticky, Pure, I thought, 'Hey, I can do what they're asking - this isn't so bad after all, and it might be enjoyable to participate in more in-depth discussion than Story Feedback offers. Plus, I just started my first story and may need this kind of discussion on it as I get closer to submitting.'

Then I looked at the main page, and found Jeninflorida's unofficial thread. I've given her comments in SF before, and saw that she offered the same type of responses here, which don't lead me to believe adding anything to the thread here will lead to a more in-depth discussion. That's not an attack on the author or her posts, just my impression, which could be totally off.

So, how can I participate? Yes, I know, that's your question, too!

I see the difference between SDC and SF as a higher level of participation from both the author and the critics. To me, that means the author actively participates in the discussion, asking questions about critiques and trying to solve problems. Critics offer more than "Great story! Keep writing!", giving specific comments, questions and suggestions as the sticky suggests.

I think there's a lot of value in making members contribute before having a story reviewed. However, since you're in need of stories, how about opening it up to any author who wants more in-depth, and perhaps more specific, feedback and discussion than SF usually provides, and see how that goes? If the author or critics don't participate in the discussion, a warning could be given and it could be sent to SF if it continues, as outlined in the sticky.

I like the idea of giving critics priority on their stories, and think that might be a happy medium/solution to both problems (too few stories and critics not getting the attention they deserve). If/when I decide to submit something, I'd appreciate special consideration if I've put in my dues here. If I haven't participated, I'd expect to go to the end of the line of non-contributors.

I'm not big on the "all positive feedback" or "true, but polite, critiques" options outlined a few posts above. The idea has merit to encourage author participation, but I'm unlikely to interact with authors who choose #1 because I believe tactful honesty is the best policy, am not comfortable leaving out things that might help someone improve, and figure those seeking validation alone can do so in SF or elsewhere. I guess #1 is contrary to "guided author criticism" in my mind, so I won't look for validation as an author or critic here, I'll look for constructive criticism of what the author (be that me, or others) points to (specific things, or the overall story).

 

[Penelope Street]

I'm new to this corner of Lit because I'm one of the people who felt it a bit threatening up until I re-read the stickies today. Given that, I'll offer my $.02 on the above/current discussion.

Hi Erika! Thanks for joining us. It's always nice to see a new face. Or, I guess, a new AV.

I think there's a lot of value in making members contribute before having a story reviewed. However, since you're in need of stories, how about opening it up to any author who wants more in-depth, and perhaps more specific, feedback and discussion than SF usually provides, and see how that goes? If the author or critics don't participate in the discussion, a warning could be given and it could be sent to SF if it continues, as outlined in the sticky.

I like the idea of giving critics priority on their stories, and think that might be a happy medium/solution to both problems (too few stories and critics not getting the attention they deserve). If/when I decide to submit something, I'd appreciate special consideration if I've put in my dues here. If I haven't participated, I'd expect to go to the end of the line of non-contributors.

That's more or less what I had in mind. I don't believe just anyone should be allowed to start discussion threads whenever they feel like it. Those that do, including one's like Jenin's, should be moved to the story feedback forum. However, the requirement that everyone in the queue have two critiques to their credit lends the SDC, I think, a cliquish feel, enhancing the feeling that one might not belong or be good enough to join. All I'm suggesting is waive the two critique requirement, but order the queue based first on number of critiques (up to two), and then order of entry. Does anyone imagine we'll be inundated with hundreds suddenly wanting their story discussed? I doubt it. If we still only have one story, at most, posted for discussion per week, I'd be shocked if the queue grew beyond a dozen or so. And if some come, have their discussion, and then disappear- so what? The only issue I see might be that the queue requires a bit more management, and if that's the only problem, I can do it.

 

[Pure]

comments to Penny

All I'm suggesting is waive the two critique requirement, but order the queue based first on number of critiques (up to two), and then order of entry. Does anyone imagine we'll be inundated with hundreds suddenly wanting their story discussed? I doubt it. If we still only have one story, at most, posted for discussion per week, I'd be shocked if the queue grew beyond a dozen or so.

I think this is on the right track, Penny. There is some problem ordering the queue as you say, but I like the concept. A problem: For instance if six new, walkin people are in line, and a 'regular' turns up with a story, does he or she have to wait six weeks?

Perhaps the answer is 1) don't have the queue--the ones we're pledged to run-- be too long; say 5-10. As some places say, "we cannot put you on the *waiting list.* for it is too long." 2) let people with a provisional spot have the duty of 'checking in' at least once a month, or they lose their spot. thus a dropin who disappears, with his/her name in line to appear in 8 weeks, loses his position if I don't hear from him/her and s/he doesn't post anything.

I agree that a limit, esp. for newcomer's stories would prevent 'inundation'; that would be 1-2 stories posted per week. (other dropins removed), perhaps.

As far as inundation, I don't think we'd have dozens. but 3-4 dropins a week does take place (though I move most). 4 new stories each week definitely would take focus away from the chosen ones. (don't forget that they'd stay-- so if there were even 3 per week for 4 weeks, that's 12 stories 'up') There could, of course be a time limit--any story's thread is closed after say 2 months, so it drops off the front page, and further.

There has been a 'natural' solution to this problem: most utter dropins do NOT get lots of attention--see the "Poppy" thread. IOW, my impression is that regulars do NOT as a rule spend lots of time on several newbies per week, because they have nothing better to do. OTOH, I do know that doc and certain people make themselves fairly available in the Story Feedback forum--i.e. they like checking out new stuff.

Perhaps a solution is to have a 'collector', drop in thread. Someone just posts a url there, a description, and a request. Those who like critiquing can vist that thread and choose among postings-- indeed the feedback needn't even be posted. Or this could be like a subforum that would look like 'story feedback'.

 

[geronimo_appleby]

is this the forum to get feedback for a work in progress?

it's the first thousand words of a non-erotic piece. as yet i have no clear idea of where it's going.

anyway, am i in the right place?

 

[Penelope Street]

I think this is on the right track, Penny. There is some problem ordering the queue as you say, but I like the concept. A problem: For instance if six new, walkin people are in line, and a 'regular' turns up with a story, does he or she have to wait six weeks?

No, I had in mind those who have been contributing move ahead of those who haven't.

 

[Penelope Street]

is this the forum to get feedback for a work in progress?

it's the first thousand words of a non-erotic piece. as yet i have no clear idea of where it's going.

anyway, am i in the right place?

We've certainly discussed some works in progess in the past. For instance, I think this one is still in progress (the latest version of the story starts in post # 38):
https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?p=19100417#post19100417

 

[Pure]

Welcome Joesephus,

Friends please welcome Joesephus and his story now posted!