Are bullet point character descriptions bad, and if so, why?

[Paul_Chance]

I'd actually say "Give it a try." Depending on what you're writing, it might be a useful technique. You often don't know until you give it a try. Worst case scenario, readers vote low and give you critical comments - which actually doesn't hurt you at all.

(I just finished reading a quartet of fiction books and the author used this approach to help the readers keep track of complex characters and complex relationships. He was able to pull it off because he built on things included in the introductory bullet points. Also, I think Keith has a good comment - it might work in a noir "just the facts" story.)

 

[MetaBob]

There is a long and distinguished history of authors making similar lists of characters in Western Literature, but less in prose than in performed works like plays or films, and certainly with less detail than you want to present.

This list of characters is often titled Dramatis Personae. Jon Krakauer has used them in some of his nonfiction, and Larry Niven, the legendary science fiction author, has done the same in his longer fiction for decades. For some of the sprawling books he writes with many, many characters, it can be helpful. Here's one example, from my paperback copy of his outstanding The Mote In God's Eye, which won practically every award for a science fiction novel published in 1974:

RODERICK HAROLD, Lord Blaine, Commander, Imperial Space Navy
ARKLEY KELLEY, Gunner, Imperial Marines, and Blaine family retainer
ADMIRAL SIR VLADIMIR RICHARD GEORGE PLEKHANOV, Vice Admiral commanding Imperial Navy Forces, New Chicago, and Acting Governor General, New Chicago
CAPTAIN BRUNO CZILLER, Imperial Space Navy, Master of INSS MacArthur
...

However, neither of these authors includes nearly as much information as you propose; while it might be helpful to the writer, I don't want to see that kind of detailed capsule for characters in my books, in fact I think it would detract from my enjoyment of a good work, where I get to know the characters by their actions.

 

[MillieDynamite]

If you write a play, bullet points about characters are quite handy for the actors. But then, the audience doesn't see those, they see the actors. Writing a book is different than a play. So, no, don't do that.

 

[MetaBob]

If you write a play, bullet points about characters are quite handy for the actors. But then, the audience doesn't see those

Sure they do. In the playbill.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Okay, sometimes, but the descriptions are altered to fit the actor. But for goodness sake, let's not do this in stories. Let's find creative ways of describing the person so the reader sees them in their mind.

Sure they do. In the playbill.

 

[lovecraft68]

What you have would be good for your own reference points to refer to and work into the story as it progresses. If you're plan would be to dump all this info at once, it would be way too much info to divulge at once.

 

[Euphony]

Sounds romantic.

Romantic...

"Who ya gonna tell, huh? Who'd believe you? You think there's some fantasy police force focused on stopping doMUSEtic abuse? This ain't toon town."

 

[Djmac1031]

Sure they do. In the playbill.

Only if they read them.

 

[Djmac1031]

Admittedly, I'm probably a crazy person but who my characters are isn't always under my own control, let alone some fly by reader.

My muse and her consorts abuse me if they feel it is necessary in telling their story.

I wish I could quit them but alas...

I had a similar (if less...abusive) experience with one character in particular. Jenna, from my long running series.

Third chapter in I had her fucking the male character, despite the fact they've only met twice so far, months apart.

About halfway through, I could almost hear Jenna in my head:

"This isn't me. I'm fun, adventurous, sure. But I'm not just fucking this guy right away like this. He needs to earn it, earn my trust, work with my boundaries."

And so I scrapped that scene in favor of one where she instead playfully teases him to masturbate in front of her.

 

[KachinaDoll]

No, don't do it, it's awful. I read your two 'bullet' descriptions and twenty seconds later couldn't remember anything about either of them.

Which are you more likely to remember?:

Milly - Age: 30, Height: 5'8'', Weight 140, Hair Color: Black, Eye Color: Green, Occupation: Pharmacist, Hobbies: Board Games, Writing
etc

or,

With a tug, Milly pulled the door of the pharmacy shut and locked it. Another long day dispensing blood pressure tablets and Viagra was over. With a sigh, she brushed her long, black, wind-whipped hair from her face and trudged up the High Street to the church hall and her writing class .

 

[ronde]

No, don't do it, it's awful. I read your two 'bullet' descriptions and twenty seconds later couldn't remember anything about either of them.

Which are you more likely to remember?:

Milly - Age: 30, Height: 5'8'', Weight 140, Hair Color: Black, Eye Color: Green, Occupation: Pharmacist, Hobbies: Board Games, Writing
etc

or,

With a tug, Milly pulled the door of the pharmacy shut and locked it. Another long day dispensing blood pressure tablets and Viagra was over. With a sigh, she brushed her long, black, wind-whipped hair from her face and trudged up the High Street to the church hall and her writing class .

Exactly.

Descriptions of characters are necessary in order to give the reader a reason why things happen as they do. They're best done over time and when included in the thoughts or speech of the characters rather than just a listing by the narrator. In first person POV, the first person narrator can describe the other characters and also describe him or her self with thoughts. In third person, it's best done by the characters describing each other as they notice those characteristics.

 

[MetaBob]

Only if they read them.

I do. And so do most others, I think. Maybe that's a good subject for a poll: when you see a play, do you look at the playbill? Same as I look at the program at a graduation, church service, or sporting event: What was their major? Cum Laude? Who's that singing? Who's On First?

Anyway, how to describe characters in a novel is at issue. Elmore Leonard's advice (see rule #8: Avoid detailed descriptions of characters) is pretty close to: "Don't." And I think there's something to be said for dispensing with many physical descriptions, not least of which is that doing so might hinder some readers from identifying with them. If you emphasize your character's eye color as blue, will that hinder the ability of a reader with brown eyes to identify with that character? In my experience, it will. A character in one of my pieces had "dark" eyes (I didn't specify skin color because it didn't matter) and a reader who was black wrote a very appreciative response because she found herself identifying with that character. Would she have been able to if I'd specified the character's skin color as white (which was how I'd been thinking of her)? My takeaway was similar to Elmore Leonard's advice: if a physical description isn't necessary, you'll only hurt yourself and your story by including it. Focus on actions and dialog, not character physical description.

All that said, the most effective way for me to avoid confusion about who's who in my stories has been:

1. Minimize the number of named characters. Why? Because when I give a character a name, it makes that character more real to me, and because after a certain point my characters become active participants in writing their stories, this can result in scope creep, where the story gets to be longer than I want, perhaps to the point of becoming unmanageable.
2. Don't use surnames unless they're needed. They often aren't.
3. Don't give more than one character a name starting with the same letter, or if you do, make sure the names are visually distinct. Example from one of my books where characters are mostly referred to by their surnames: McGee, Mackie, and McCoy? No no no. Mary and Melissa? Maybe.

Edit: I'm also pretty sure my characters might feel slighted if reduced to items in a bullet list, and we're collaborating on telling their story, that detracts from their reality to me, and I'm pretty sure that would show on the page, too.

 

[Jmanchu]

Hi, beginner writer here. Several of the guides in the Writer's Resources mention that it's bad to list character descriptors "like a police report," which I agree with if it's done inside the story. What about if you list the characters and basic info about them bullet point style before the story begins, like below:

Characters:
Greg - Age: 27, Height: 5'11'', Weight: 170, Hair Color: Brown, Eye Color: Brown, Occupation: Electrician, Hobbies: Golf, Baking
Milly - Age: 30, Height: 5'8'', Weight 140, Hair Color: Black, Eye Color: Green, Occupation: Pharmacist, Hobbies: Board Games, Writing
etc.

Is this bad, if so, why? I know it's better to show vs tell, but doing this allows you to provide details that otherwise would be clunky to include in the body of the story. If I'm writing a story about Greg and Milly meeting in a grocery store and they end up banging in Milly's Jeep in the parking lot, there isn't really any room in the story to mention their occupations or hobbies or hometowns without it seeming shoe-horned in, though the reader still might appreciate knowing. I think writing character descriptions in 1st person POV is especially hard, since the narration can only include things that character would realistically be thinking in the given scenario. Let me know if I'm wrong, but doing the descriptions before the story just seems like a good way of providing info without clunking up the story.

At the start inside the actual story posting for readers to read? Look, would you post your story outline(if you have one, and you're not a total seat of the pants writer like me) before a story starts so people can get a better idea of the story plot and details? No, right? That shit is better served as an outline and kept separate from your actual publication, not something you would post as part of the story to read. People are there to read the actual story.

Bullet points are fine if you have to remember these details as you're writing it for a character OUTLINE, but not for something you add to a story like an information brochure for your story so readers can read about your characters before they actually read about your characters. You want people to be interested in your characters first and all those details you are listing aren't interesting on their own, it's your STORY that makes those details interesting as readers read along. You can slip all that shit in there without having to post that info beforehand. In literally everything you put in there at the bullet point can be fitted into the story for people to discover about the person as the story goes along. Hair color, face, body, eyes, you can see that if you see someone, and people will take notice as they see that. You don't need a bullet point for Greg to see that Milly is a little shorter than him(or for Millie to know that she's a little tall, but Greg is still taller than her), but she's still tall for a woman. Perhaps leggy? She's got that super model height right there. Does she move like a super model? What's the deal with her being a pharmacist, and does she enjoy her work? Your story makes that interesting and should make the readers curious AS they find these details IN the story, not the bullet points. Nobody is interested by bullet points.

Here's some ideas, like with Greg and Milly's height. Maybe if they lean in against each other his forehead presses against hers whenever or if it happens, the top of his forehead kinda presses DOWN over hers, maybe not that much because their height difference aint too different. Even more so if she wears 3 inch heels she's standing head to head with Greg, though he aint short at all(five foot 8, means she's about 3 inches shorter, so 3 inch heels will make her level with him). Also what caught his attention about her? Those enchanting green orbs? Are they like emeralds, or soft pastel green, and how do they make him feel when she's staring at him with those eyes? You don't need bullet points to use that information to make the story interesting, or to make the details interesting. Bullet points are NOT NEEDED.


Like you said, better to "show than tell," and you want to show all those details in the most interesting way but organically, as it happens if it does. Why is Greg and Millie's height, hair color, weight, hobbies, etc interesting? Bullet points don't answer that, but that story itself sure can. Details added in that way that makes your characters come alive will not clunk up your story at all, that's the primary definition of show don't tell for storytelling. But Bullet points are pure clunk if you were to add it that way.

What I'm saying is: It's not the details themselves, it's WHAT you do with those details that matter in the story.

 

[SimonDoom]

There is a long and distinguished history of authors making similar lists of characters in Western Literature, but less in prose than in performed works like plays or films, and certainly with less detail than you want to present.

This list of characters is often titled Dramatis Personae. Jon Krakauer has used them in some of his nonfiction, and Larry Niven, the legendary science fiction author, has done the same in his longer fiction for decades. For some of the sprawling books he writes with many, many characters, it can be helpful. Here's one example, from my paperback copy of his outstanding The Mote In God's Eye, which won practically every award for a science fiction novel published in 1974:

RODERICK HAROLD, Lord Blaine, Commander, Imperial Space Navy
ARKLEY KELLEY, Gunner, Imperial Marines, and Blaine family retainer
ADMIRAL SIR VLADIMIR RICHARD GEORGE PLEKHANOV, Vice Admiral commanding Imperial Navy Forces, New Chicago, and Acting Governor General, New Chicago
CAPTAIN BRUNO CZILLER, Imperial Space Navy, Master of INSS MacArthur
...

However, neither of these authors includes nearly as much information as you propose; while it might be helpful to the writer, I don't want to see that kind of detailed capsule for characters in my books, in fact I think it would detract from my enjoyment of a good work, where I get to know the characters by their actions.

True, but again, apples and oranges. Lists like these can be useful for complex science fiction/fantasy stories that feature many characters, like Dune or the story you've referred to. And they can be helpful for someone who's about to watch a Shakespeare play for the first time. But none of that has anything to do with a short erotic story about a guy meeting a girl at the grocery store and then having sex in the parking lot. Nobody needs to know he likes board games. In the first few paragraphs, an author with any skill can convey all the needed background information about the characters in a far more elegant way.

 

[Bramblethorn]

There is a long and distinguished history of authors making similar lists of characters in Western Literature, but less in prose than in performed works like plays or films, and certainly with less detail than you want to present.

This list of characters is often titled Dramatis Personae. Jon Krakauer has used them in some of his nonfiction, and Larry Niven, the legendary science fiction author, has done the same in his longer fiction for decades. For some of the sprawling books he writes with many, many characters, it can be helpful.

I've seen it in a couple of recent SF/F books too (Martha Wells' "Witch King", Tamsyn Muir's "Locked Tomb" series). As you say, it's for stories that have large casts, and usually the DP provides the minimum necessary to remind a reader who this character is and where they fit into things:

Crux MARSHAL OF THE HOUSE OF THE NINTH
Aiglamene CAPTAIN OF THE GUARD OF THE NINTH
Sister Lachrimorta NUN OF THE LOCKED TOMB
Sister Aisamorta NUN OF THE LOCKED TOMB​

No physical description, and definitely no hobbies.

 

[Britva415]

there isn't really any room in the story to mention their occupations or hobbies or hometowns without it seeming shoe-horned in

Sounds more like a scene than a story. If those details aren't important enough to the scene to either write them into the scene or write additional scenes to reveal them, they're not necessary to the story at all.

There are entire novels where these details aren't included. Because they aren't necessary to the particular story.

Think "Chekov's Gun."

 

[MillieDynamite]

Milly - Age: 30, Height: 5'8'', Weight 140, Hair Color: Black, Eye Color: Green, Occupation: Pharmacist, Hobbies: Board Games, Writing
etc

first, you misspelled by name, it's Millie, the height is actually 4 feet 11 1/2 inches (yes the half an inch is important) the weight is none of your damn business, eyes are dark brown, my color is called High Yellow. LOL

 

[JaxRhapsody]

first, you misspelled by name, it's Millie, the height is actually 4 feet 11 1/2 inches (yes the half an inch is important) the weight is none of your damn business, eyes are dark brown, my color is called High Yellow. LOL

Aieght, ya high yellow havelin.

 

[Canteloupe]

the weight is none of your damn business

90 lbs of Dynamite Big Bada Boom!!

 

[Mastered_again]

I prefer PowerPoint presentations

 

[Candy_Kane54]

I prefer PowerPoint presentations

I once wrote a PowerPoint Presentation that played a mean game of Tic-Tac-Toe ...

 

[goodpen86]

If I saw character descriptions at the beginning of a story like your example I would immediately stop reading. I’ve always struggled with description in writing but it’s necessary to paint the full picture. And weaving description into the body of your work is part of the art form. Everyone does it differently. For me I’ve started to try to describe characters in short bursts instead of in one long paragraph. Depending on the story I may describe the character through the eyes of another.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

You can write short stories that capture a moment and capture a personality, with a minimum of words.

Go find the 750 Word Anthology collections for any number of excellent examples, or try these two:

A Girl on the Bus

Brooke Works at the Hardware Store

750 words? Luxury!

There’s an active thread in the challenge section for 100 word stories. It really makes you focus on what the reader absolutely needs to know.

https://forum.literotica.com/thread...no-more-no-less.1587504/page-16#post-97418335

 

[MillieDynamite]

Canteloupe,​

The ninety pounds has long since had more weight added to it. 90 lbs of Dynamite was a nickname when I was a teen and young adult.

 

[ElectricBlue]

750 words? Luxury!

There’s an active thread in the challenge section for 100 word stories. It really makes you focus on what the reader absolutely needs to know.

https://forum.literotica.com/thread...no-more-no-less.1587504/page-16#post-97418335

Yes, I've seen those. If I went into that thread with my own one-hundred word stories, it would be like going to the heaven in Samuel Taylor Coleridge's tiny poem, plucking the strange and beautiful flower, and finding it on my pillow when I woke. I'd never want to come back!