Are bullet point character descriptions bad, and if so, why?

[Paul_Chance]

I still think the OP should give it a try and see how it turns out.

My main reason for abandoning a story is bad spelling, grammar, or punctuation. I'd consider a bullet list of character description to simply be a technique. Not commonly used, but in the hands of a good storyteller, could be effective.

I personally dislike "stream of conscious" type stories - but, at the same time, in the hands of a good storyteller, I've enjoyed some of them.

It all depends on the story the trick or technique is used in. All sins are forgiven if you tell a great story.

 

[AchtungNight]

I’m a writer of the stream of consciousness type and my mind frequently goes in crazy spirals and other polygonal directions. No Falconer can keep up with this bird easily! But yeah, even I’d avoid bullet point descriptions before using them based on response here. Don’t want to upset your audience, hopefully you’ll amuse them and make them think.

 

[Britva415]

I'd consider a bullet list of character description to simply be a technique. Not commonly used, but in the hands of a good storyteller, could be effective.

I agree even though I advised OP not to do this.

If they endeavor to tell a good enough story and (more importantly) tell it well enough with this technique, my hat's off to them for trying.

 

[Britva415]

Regarding Chekov's Gun -

There are multiple layers to that. Not only do the bullet-pointed details themselves represent Chekov's Guns, one could regard the bullet-pointed list itself as one, too.

If the story itself has a reason for including the details as well as for presenting them as a bullet-pointed list as well, hats off.

 

[Candy_Kane54]

Regarding Chekov's Gun -

There are multiple layers to that. Not only do the bullet-pointed details themselves represent Chekov's Guns, one could regard the bullet-pointed list itself as one, too.

If the story itself has a reason for including the details as well as for presenting them as a bullet-pointed list as well, hats off.

I could see the beginning of the story to be like an episode of Mission Impossible where Jim is going through the folders with the characters needed to make up the team and the target of their mission ...

 

[Britva415]

I could see the beginning of the story to be like an episode of Mission Impossible where Jim is going through the folders with the characters needed to make up the team and the target of their mission ...

Or maybe a reveal later on which explains that that was why this data was presented in that format. Twist - she was a spy dun dun dunnn!

 

[MrHereWriting]

Hi, beginner writer here. Several of the guides in the Writer's Resources mention that it's bad to list character descriptors "like a police report," which I agree with if it's done inside the story. What about if you list the characters and basic info about them bullet point style before the story begins, like below:

Characters:
Greg - Age: 27, Height: 5'11'', Weight: 170, Hair Color: Brown, Eye Color: Brown, Occupation: Electrician, Hobbies: Golf, Baking
Milly - Age: 30, Height: 5'8'', Weight 140, Hair Color: Black, Eye Color: Green, Occupation: Pharmacist, Hobbies: Board Games, Writing
etc.

Is this bad, if so, why? I know it's better to show vs tell, but doing this allows you to provide details that otherwise would be clunky to include in the body of the story. If I'm writing a story about Greg and Milly meeting in a grocery store and they end up banging in Milly's Jeep in the parking lot, there isn't really any room in the story to mention their occupations or hobbies or hometowns without it seeming shoe-horned in, though the reader still might appreciate knowing. I think writing character descriptions in 1st person POV is especially hard, since the narration can only include things that character would realistically be thinking in the given scenario. Let me know if I'm wrong, but doing the descriptions before the story just seems like a good way of providing info without clunking up the story.

You're asking writers for their opinions, and 99% of them seem to have gone to the same school.

What you want is the opinions of your readers.

Do it and find out.

 

[ElectricBlue]

You're asking writers for their opinions, and 99% of them seem to have gone to the same school.

Name me a mainstream novel that presents such a bullet list.

If 99% of the writers are saying, "Don't do it," are you really trying to say we're all wrong and the 1% guy (whoever they might be, I saw no-one putting their hand up) is right? Even you are hedging your bets by not giving an opinion yourself, merely pointing somewhere else. At least the rest of us are committed to our beliefs .

 

[Paul_Chance]

Name me a mainstream novel that presents such a bullet list.

If 99% of the writers are saying, "Don't do it," are you really trying to say we're all wrong and the 1% guy (whoever they might be, I saw no-one putting their hand up) is right? Even you are hedging your bets by not giving an opinion yourself, merely pointing somewhere else. At least the rest of us are committed to our beliefs .

Nope. It's an author's choice (with input from your editor). A few off the top of my head. I will also point out here that what we write here is also not mainstream fiction, so more appropriate would be it's use in genre fiction.

The Witch King - Martha Wells (Fantasy - excellent author by the way, I highly recommend the Murderbot Series).
Into Thin Air - John Krakuer (sp), non-fiction about Mt. Everest
The Mote in God's Eye - Larry Niven (Science Fiction)
Pretty much every book in the Warhammer Series (Science Fiction)
The New Jedi Order (assorted authors - Science Fiction), as well as several other of the Star Wars subseries.
Pretty much every novelization of a play (Ibsen's work pops to mind)
Some editions of Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion (some also place it in the back)

It's an author's choice. Just because we at Lit like or don't like it, doesn't mean it's not a potentially useful tool, especially as in an example of Chekov's Gun, as other posters mentioned. (As a plot device, place something in the character list that is used in the story. For instance, in a mystery driven tale, you could easily hide clues in such a list, so that when you got to the reveal, it would have been in front of the reader all the time, if they remembered it.)

 

[Djmac1031]

For the record: I never told the OP to not do it.

I said I'd skip it if I saw it in a story, and that I thought his efforts would be better spent sprinkling those details throughout the story as he wrote instead.

That's my opinion, for whatever they find it worth. After that they're free to do as they please.

 

[Paul_Chance]

For the record: I never told the OP to not do it.

I said I'd skip it if I saw it in a story, and that I thought his efforts would be better spent sprinkling those details throughout the story as he wrote instead.

That's my opinion, for whatever they find it worth. After that they're free to do as they please.

Yep. Opinions on Lit are worth exactly what we paid for them.

I'd certainly question it's necessity in a classic sized short story, with only two or three main characters. My inclination would be to not do it. But, now that we've talked about it, I might be tempted to try it, since I approach Lit as a place where I can play around.

Oh, also Gaiman's "Good Omens", where it's used for humorous purposes and in tribute to one of the inspirations, The Screw Tape Letters (CS Lewis).

That's pretty good company.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

You're asking writers for their opinions, and 99% of them seem to have gone to the same school.

What you want is the opinions of your readers.

Do it and find out.

99% of licensed drivers will tell you not to turn down the wrong way down a one way street, too.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Nope. It's an author's choice (with input from your editor). A few off the top of my head. I will also point out here that what we write here is also not mainstream fiction, so more appropriate would be it's use in genre fiction.

The Witch King - Martha Wells (Fantasy - excellent author by the way, I highly recommend the Murderbot Series).
Into Thin Air - John Krakuer (sp), non-fiction about Mt. Everest
The Mote in God's Eye - Larry Niven (Science Fiction)
Pretty much every book in the Warhammer Series (Science Fiction)
The New Jedi Order (assorted authors - Science Fiction), as well as several other of the Star Wars subseries.
Pretty much every novelization of a play (Ibsen's work pops to mind)
Some editions of Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion (some also place it in the back)

It's an author's choice. Just because we at Lit like or don't like it, doesn't mean it's not a potentially useful tool, especially as in an example of Chekov's Gun, as other posters mentioned. (As a plot device, place something in the character list that is used in the story. For instance, in a mystery driven tale, you could easily hide clues in such a list, so that when you got to the reveal, it would have been in front of the reader all the time, if they remembered it.)

Many books have a list of characters. The OP is talking about a chart full of vital statistics, which is a different thing entirely. He came asking if it was a good idea, and the overwhelming majority of the advice was, "No, it's not."

The Chekov's Gun analogy is nonsensical. His plays introduce something as part of the action, not in a list up the front.

Yes, it is an author's choice, sure, but when a new writer asks such a question, surely consensus advice (rather than disagreeing with the overwhelming majority just for the sake of being contrary) is more useful for someone just starting out. If it was fifty/fifty, it would be a different matter, but it wasn't.

When a writer knows what they're doing, in terms of the writer's toolbox (which the OP clearly doesn't, or the question wouldn't have been asked), that's when they can go experimental. Otherwise, they're just going to look silly.

 

[Bramblethorn]

My main reason for abandoning a story is bad spelling, grammar, or punctuation. I'd consider a bullet list of character description to simply be a technique. Not commonly used, but in the hands of a good storyteller, could be effective.

I personally dislike "stream of conscious" type stories - but, at the same time, in the hands of a good storyteller, I've enjoyed some of them.

It all depends on the story the trick or technique is used in. All sins are forgiven if you tell a great story.

There's a line about technique that I quote a lot from Roger Ebert's review of Battlefield Earth: "The director... has learned from better films that directors sometimes tilt their cameras, but he has not learned why."

Techniques are tools. A good writer will usually know a wide range of techniques, what they're good for, and when to use them. But something I see a lot of new writers fall into is using techniques for the sake of using them, or because they saw somebody else use that technique and so they've assumed that's what writers do.

Unnecessary use of fancy techniques is often harmful, because it gets the reader thinking questions like "why is the author using this technique?" and that tends to break the reader out of the story. Dipping back into film, it's something that has ruined better films than Battlefield Earth for me: that moment when I find myself thinking "that's an impressive special effect, I wonder how they achieved it?" is the moment where I'm no longer accepting the characters as real.

Regarding Chekov's Gun -

There are multiple layers to that. Not only do the bullet-pointed details themselves represent Chekov's Guns, one could regard the bullet-pointed list itself as one, too.

If the story itself has a reason for including the details as well as for presenting them as a bullet-pointed list as well, hats off.

I'm sure somebody could write a great story from that opening. But there's an important difference between Literotica and traditional publishing here.

If I go to the library or a bookshop and pick up a traditionally-published book, even if the opening doesn't do it for me, I do know that somebody who's in the business of publishing and selling books has reason to think people would like this book, enough to recover what it cost them to publish and sell it. That's by no means a perfect recommendation, their tastes might be quite different to mine, but it's reason to keep reading a little longer and see if it improves.

Here, though, we don't have that same recommendation, and so readers are less likely to extend the benefit of the doubt. Even if the author has figured out something dazzlingly clever that makes this opening work, there's a risk that a lot of readers will miss it because they didn't stick around to see whether the author knows what they're doing.

 

[AchtungNight]

At the same time, the editorial staff of this site and other reviewers have read our work and found it worthy entertainment regardless of it being in physical book format. Some may have even printed it out and put it in a binder somewhere or otherwise preserved it. I hope that’s so, anyway. Every time we get a good review, a favorite, a high rating, this is proven true.

 

[MrHereWriting]

Name me a mainstream novel that presents such a bullet list.

If 99% of the writers are saying, "Don't do it," are you really trying to say we're all wrong and the 1% guy (whoever they might be, I saw no-one putting their hand up) is right? Even you are hedging your bets by not giving an opinion yourself, merely pointing somewhere else. At least the rest of us are committed to our beliefs .

Why are you so easily offended that you need to defend an opinion that needs no defending? You'd think I'd slapped your mother by grouping you in something you're proud of. Relax; you shouldn't read insults into everything.

On Lit, it's the opinions of your readers that are important, especially if you want to try something new or rarely done.

And to answer your question: See Paul Chance's response.

99% of licensed drivers will tell you not to turn down the wrong way down a one way street, too.

There are laws to driving in the states, but there are no laws when it comes to creative expression. (I know, I know, see "obscenity" rulings, but lets not be so pedantic in our understanding of people's meanings all of the time.)

 

[bumpercars]

I think a big part of why so many people are advising against bullet point descriptions is that people don't absorb information as well through lists as they do through stories. When we see characters doing things, we come to our own conclusions about them, and we generally trust our own conclusions more than anyone else's.

If you put in a bullet point that Milly likes board games, I might remember. But if I see her playing a board game, I'll not only remember but learn more about her character from the way she plays. If she plays co-op games, I'll learn that she wants to have someone on her side. If I see her winning at poker I'll learn that she can be deceptive when she needs to be. If she plays Twilight Imperium, I'll learn that she'll do anything to get what she wants even if it takes all day.

Some people are giving examples of authors who have used a dramatis personae at the beginning of their works, and there's a lot you can learn from those authors, but I don't think a dramatis personae is meant to do much description work. In Good Omens, for example, we are told that Crowley is an angel who didn't fall so much as saunter vaguely downwards. That's funny and it sets us up for meeting him, but it isn't meant to tell us his full bio, only whet our appetite. It doesn't try to tell us that he keeps plants, that he has a cool old car, and that he's in love with an angel even if he can't admit it.

So, in short: I recommend that you spread the information out over the story, so that readers can digest it.

 

[alohadave]

99% of licensed drivers will tell you not to turn down the wrong way down a one way street, too.

The difference being that traffic instructions are unambiguous and not open to interpretation.

While there are common ways of doing things in writing, you can go down that one-way street and be fine, if you can do it well.

 

[SimonDoom]

I agree with what Bramblethorn wrote above. There are many tools you CAN use, but as an author you should always be asking yourself why you want to use them.

I wouldn't adopt an absolute, black-and-white rule against inserting a dramatis personae list at the beginning of a story, which includes traits. But look at the examples people here are giving for these kinds of lists: they're novels and plays. That's apples and oranges. The OP is talking about a short stroke story he intends to write. How in the world can one possibly justify a list of traits that includes baking and board game playing at the beginning of such a story? It makes no sense IN THIS CONTEXT. This story, based on the intended author's own stated intentions, calls for the introduction of traits sparingly, organically, and only to the extent necessary to propel the story to the sex scene in the parking lot that the OP wants to get to. It's hard to see how information about board games in a list would get one there, unless the thing that attracts the two characters is a common interest in Monopoly and they have a flirty debate on the way out to the parking lot about which colored monopoly is best to achieve victory. And even then, the best way to bring it up is organically, through the story.

 

[Mastered_again]

A bullet list sounds like a casting call.
Better to bring them out in the story, painting a picture verbally of how the attributes present themselves, positively or negatively and how they affect their fellow characters.

 

[Britva415]

as an author you should always be asking yourself why you want to use them

This author did.

Answer: Because they're "clunky [for me, given my writing skills] to include in the body of the story."

 

[SimonDoom]

This author did.

Answer: Because they're "clunky [for me, given my writing skills] to include in the body of the story."

And those who responded took the time to explain, in reasonable detail, why, in this particular case, it would be far clunkier to do what the author proposes. This is just my personal opinion, but that's true of everything that anyone says in this forum, correct? In this case it's an opinion that I think is sound based on the experience and based on the circumstances as the author describes them. Nobody has explained why having a character trait list that mentions a love of board games will in any way enhance this seemingly very short story that leads to quick sex. No reader will be worse off for not knowing that. And if in fact that detail is somehow useful to the story, it will be better to present it organically in the story.

"I've never done this before and I saw someone else do this somewhere" isn't a very thorough process of really asking oneself why one wants to do something in a story.

It's the author's choice. But nobody in this now 4-page thread has made a good case for taking this approach IN THIS PARTICULAR STORY.

 

[StillStunned]

"Milly's fingers struggled with the buttons of his jeans. She hadn't felt this excited since she'd unboxed Journeys in Middle Earth, and she hoped she wouldn't be as disappointed. More real-life playing, less messing around on her tablet. Finally she drew out his cock. Forget about Journeys in Middle Earth, she thought, this is Cthulhu Wars! The pharmacist in her was pleased by his standard of hygiene as well."

Someone else can write up Greg. I got as far as "kneading her soft white flesh like dough" and "pubes trimmed as carefully as a first-class putting-green", then realised I couldn't be arsed.

 

[Canteloupe]

The OP is talking about a short stroke story he intends to write.

This was a hypothetical question, Greg and Milly are just an example. I have no intention to write a boring vanilla story about parking lot sex lol

 

[SimonDoom]

This was a hypothetical question, Greg and Milly are just an example. I have no intention to write a boring vanilla story about parking lot sex lol

The advice you've been given applies regardless of whether it's a hypothetical or not. It doesn't matter. Come up with other hypotheticals for short stories and try to come up with examples where the list of traits at the beginning of the story improves the story. I think you'll find it's difficult.

This is my main point. You can only answer questions like these in the context of a specific story idea, and ask yourself what is the purpose of every word in the context of the story.