Are Many/Most Bi's Really Just Closet Hedonists?

[HottieMama]

• then there are the self described Bi's who are actually Hedonists. They could give a good damn about which type of genitalia get THEM off. It's like everybody is actually genderless to them. They don't care if it's a dick or a pussy anymore then I care what color dildo my lover is using. That's why they often say things like "I like cock, but not men". It's ALL about them and the other person is just a "means" so they simply don't CARE about their gender.

Is this really a bad thing? If both parties are honest with each other about expectations, how is this attitude a negative? I care about my partner's pleasure. Sexually, I am much more of a giver than a receiver. However, if I find a person attractive, I don't much care what "equipment" I am "giving" to...

 

[HerLittlePiggy]

First off, I didn't say "ALL". I'm sure there are a lot of Bi's who are sensitive to their current partner and care about giving THEM pleasure simply to please THEM. I'm not talking about those, I'm asking about what I perceive to be the average bi poster here.

Anyways, isn't it really hedonism in disguise when you are willing to have sex with anybody just to get YOUR rocks off? I see this reflected in previously monogamous men and women who are willing to cheat behind their spouses backs. I see this in many of the almost predatory posts from almost exclusively Bi's towards newly coming out individuals. I see that reflected in the "I like cock, but would never date a man romantically" group as well.

The common thread reflected in all of those examples (as well as MANY more) is the constant theme of pleasure for Me, Me, Me! On the rare occasion I do read about someone in this category giving pleaser to another it's most usually couched as "it give ME pleasure to give them pleasure".

Pleasure for me, me, me, above all else is the textbook example of egotistic hedonism. It also appears to be the driving force behind MANY proponents of bi sex, does it not?

So tell me, if that's the case, aren't they one in the same?

The problem I, and I suspect most of the bisexual people of this board, have with your condescending and holier than thou posts is that they serve little purpose other than to belittle our sexuality. In your black and white point of view only straight and gay people have a right to their sexuality. You demean bisexuals and belittle anyone who doesn't agree with your very narrow point of view.

In answer to your question, no bisexuals are not merely hedonists.

I would hope that as someone who is openly lesbian you would comprehend that what you are doing when you classify, pigeon hole and lump all persons of a given set of beliefs as one and then belittle, and berate them that you are no better than the people who have discriminated against you for your sexuality.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Is this really a bad thing? If both parties are honest with each other about expectations, how is this attitude a negative? I care about my partner's pleasure. Sexually, I am much more of a giver than a receiver. However, if I find a person attractive, I don't much care what "equipment" I am "giving" to...

No not necessarily bad, but I also don't think of them necessarily as Bi, either.

Btw, from you're description you wouldn't fall into the category you quoted. From your self-description as a "giver" you'd in fact be excluded from that group. You'd fit, guessing from your current and prior posts, much closer to the second group I described in as you don't "care which flavor they are", but you're still more interested in a reciprocal relationship that isn't simply me, me, me based.


Here's what I'm getting out of this and I'd like to hear your views on it:

Most long term studies show that roughly let's call it 12% - 14% of the population of a group is LGB. Where the numbers get skewed is when people start saying the numbers are actually 15% - 25% of the population once all the "real" bisexuals are factored in. Of course, most of this kind of thinking is supported/originating from Bi advocacy groups & individual Bi advocates. That only makes sense because it gives them additional numbers and therefore additional credibility. I'm not say this is a bad thing necessarily because for a long time Bi/Pan individuals and their rights WERE kind of ignored, much like TGs are. I'm just sayin.

Anyways, I'm just thinking that when you strip out the "experimenters", the posers, the true "I'd fuck a goat as long as I get to come"-ers, the true Hedonists and the "I talk about doing it, but never actually would!"-ers (like Stella mentioned), you get a much more realistic number that matches up much better with the research data.

Granted, it would be cool if 25% of everybody was LGB, but it is much more important to have a true grasp on the accurate numbers and reality cuz the "real" members of the LGBT community are where the changes will come from, not from the posers or wannabes.

 

[joe_doe907]

yup

I don't think the hedonism has anything to do with bisexuals. Most lit posters are horny little sluts, regardless of orientation. What do you expect from a sex forum?

ex-fucking-actly

 

[Safe_Bet]

@ Herlittlepiggy:

Dude, you, much like the other doof LeatherChaps, wasted two paragraphs telling everyone what an awful person you think I am.

You wrote one freakin sentence addressing the subject of this thread and THAT could have been abbreviated to "NO!" **foot stomp**, with no justification or reasons.

That is EXACTLY why I think you are a worthless, pissy assed troll. So, either add to the discussion constructively or otherwise yell up the basement stairs to your mama cuz I really don't want to hear it, K buttercup?

 

[blade_rocknut]

Can we reeeeeaallly exclude experimenters? I mean; who draws the line on what constitutes being truly bi? I tend to lean toward thinking the numbers on LGBT are looking way too low. A great many people; dare I say a majority of those with bi leanings either suppress or cover up their feelings for religion, guilt, shame, or convenience.

I can think of a handful of *straight on the surface* women who'd be enjoying sapphic fun if not for the trappings of family, society, etc. I don't even know THAT many people. Are my friends just kinkier than most? Hmmmmm....

 

[Safe_Bet]

Can we reeeeeaallly exclude experimenters? I mean; who draws the line on what constitutes being truly bi? I tend to lean toward thinking the numbers on LGBT are looking way too low. A great many people; dare I say a majority of those with bi leanings either suppress or cover up their feelings for religion, guilt, shame, or convenience.

I can think of a handful of *straight on the surface* women who'd be enjoying sapphic fun if not for the trappings of family, society, etc. I don't even know THAT many people. Are my friends just kinkier than most? Hmmmmm....

Well, yes and no!

By "experimenters" I was actually TRYING (unsuccessfully - but I knew what I meant ) to mean the gays and lesbians who eventually are factored into the total G/L number (possibly being double counted???). Who I didn't factor in are the actual "bi-curious", who are still straight till they actually DO something other then think on it.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

First off, I didn't say "ALL". I'm sure there are a lot of Bi's who are sensitive to their current partner and care about giving THEM pleasure simply to please THEM. I'm not talking about those, I'm asking about what I perceive to be the average bi poster here.

Anyways, isn't it really hedonism in disguise when you are willing to have sex with anybody just to get YOUR rocks off? I see this reflected in previously monogamous men and women who are willing to cheat behind their spouses backs. I see this in many of the almost predatory posts from almost exclusively Bi's towards newly coming out individuals. I see that reflected in the "I like cock, but would never date a man romantically" group as well.

The common thread reflected in all of those examples (as well as MANY more) is the constant theme of pleasure for Me, Me, Me! On the rare occasion I do read about someone in this category giving pleaser to another it's most usually couched as "it give ME pleasure to give them pleasure".

Pleasure for me, me, me, above all else is the textbook example of egotistic hedonism. It also appears to be the driving force behind MANY proponents of bi sex, does it not?

So tell me, if that's the case, aren't they one in the same?

I read and reread this opening post and my first (second, third, fourth) reaction was always the same. Going by the examples listed~and judging by what I have seen in this forum alone from most of the supposed bisexual people who post here~the initial answer would be "YES! They are self pleasure seeking butt wipes and should be smacked."

However, I don't think that is true of most bi/pan people and (in all honesty) the same could be said for most aggressive studs/butches (the ones I know) and well as those bottom boys. I have had my heart broken more than a time or two by those aggressively butch girls who seemed to not care who they kicked over, as long as they got some pussy if I wasn't willing (or able) to provide it. And after all, I liked dick once upon a time so obviously I don't know HOW to be faithful...not like a real lesbian or gay person. (Do you detect some bitterness here? Good.)

My point is~ I would never deign to paint almost every stud/butch/femme by what a few have done/said...nor would I ever willingly believe that almost every gay male on the planet is a dick waiting for a tight sphincter (or conversely~waiting to BE a tight sphincter) for just any other penis that happens by. However in my own experience I could say that or think that, and be right 98% of the time, based on what I see, know, understand to be true.

Okay, I've been thinking more on this cuz of what you've said. (thanks for the response, BTW. )

I'm thinking now that there are actually three distinct groups that self identify as Bi:

• There's the "I'm gay, but I'm saying I'm Bi till I figure out who the he'll I really am"-ers. They "appear" to be hedonistic because they are trying to discover who they really are. It's only logical that it would be all about themselves cuz that's their focus.

• There's people like your wife who I consider to be truly Bi. They are capable of liking either/both genders. This gives them the capability to be a "giver" as well as a "receiver" because it's not all about them, but about their expanded capabilities (as say compared to a hetero or homo sexual person).

• then there are the self described Bi's who are actually Hedonists. They could give a good damn about which type of genitalia get THEM off. It's like everybody is actually genderless to them. They don't care if it's a dick or a pussy anymore then I care what color dildo my lover is using. That's why they often say things like "I like cock, but not men". It's ALL about them and the other person is just a "means" so they simply don't CARE about their gender.

I guess the capacity for "genderless/dehumanizing sex" whose sole purpose is for THEIR enjoyment is why I consider this group to be Hedonists instead of Bi (in spite of their willingness to indulge in bi sex).

Also because of their willingness to "take on all comers", as long as they themselves are getting off, is why I see so many of this type of person in the Bi community as opposed to the straight or G/L communities. (even here on Lit, where everybody is sexually focused).

This makes much more sense and I agree with the qualifications unequivocally as I see the same divisions through all sorts of sexual lines~whether they classify themselves as queer, straight, bi...whatever.

No not necessarily bad, but I also don't think of them necessarily as Bi, either.

Btw, from you're description you wouldn't fall into the category you quoted. From your self-description as a "giver" you'd in fact be excluded from that group. You'd fit, guessing from your current and prior posts, much closer to the second group I described in as you don't "care which flavor they are", but you're still more interested in a reciprocal relationship that isn't simply me, me, me based.


Here's what I'm getting out of this and I'd like to hear your views on it:

Most long term studies show that roughly let's call it 12% - 14% of the population of a group is LGB. Where the numbers get skewed is when people start saying the numbers are actually 15% - 25% of the population once all the "real" bisexuals are factored in. Of course, most of this kind of thinking is supported/originating from Bi advocacy groups & individual Bi advocates. That only makes sense because it gives them additional numbers and therefore additional credibility. I'm not say this is a bad thing necessarily because for a long time Bi/Pan individuals and their rights WERE kind of ignored, much like TGs are. I'm just sayin.

Anyways, I'm just thinking that when you strip out the "experimenters", the posers, the true "I'd fuck a goat as long as I get to come"-ers, the true Hedonists and the "I talk about doing it, but never actually would!"-ers (like Stella mentioned), you get a much more realistic number that matches up much better with the research data.

Granted, it would be cool if 25% of everybody was LGB, but it is much more important to have a true grasp on the accurate numbers and reality cuz the "real" members of the LGBT community are where the changes will come from, not from the posers or wannabes.

I am still thinking on this part....gimme a second, I will come back to it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yeah, you're right. I sometimes forget that many of the posters here are unemployed fast food workers living in their mama's basement and prolly couldn't get laid even if they were in prison.

You never knew that in the first place. So no wonder you have trouble remembering it.

Think about it the other way around-- that a lot of folks have corporate jobs and responsibilities that they can't set aside. I have seen first hand what happens when the merest rumor gets out about someone's personal life-- being bypassed for a promotion on account of a RUMOR that she was having an affair. NOT a proven rumor.

So yeah, keeping one's desires constricted to complaining and fantasizing on the internet-- sometimes that's about all a person can do.

 

[timetotry]

Stella you hit the nail on the head. My favorite analogy because I am in the construction bidness and tho I am sorta tall at 6' 2" and have worked construction most of my adult life there is a part of me that is as queer as it gets and sometimes I'd give most anything to throw off the wraps that I hide under but it would cost me dearly. I am slooooowly bringing my wife around to the concept (I think) but my crew would shit a brick if they knew and half of them would refuse to work for me which in turn would put my boss in an awkward spot and he'd have to make some difficult decisions so to keep the machine running smoothly I keep my yap closed about the matter at work and probably always will. Wish it weren't that way and maybe someday somewhere it won't be but that's the world we live in.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm also wondering what is so bad about being a hedonist.

Actually, I doubt that Amy and I agree on what hedonism is. She seems to think it's a selfish trait. I think that most humans have too much empathy to be completely selfish in pleasure. Most of the guys here talk about wanting to suck dick, for instance, as opposed to getting their dicks sucked. That's taking pleasure in someone else's pleasure, for sure.

 

[Safe_Bet]

I'm also wondering what is so bad about being a hedonist.

Actually, I doubt that Amy and I agree on what hedonism is. She seems to think it's a selfish trait. I think that most humans have too much empathy to be completely selfish in pleasure. Most of the guys here talk about wanting to suck dick, for instance, as opposed to getting their dicks sucked. That's taking pleasure in someone else's pleasure, for sure.

Valid point. So let's define terms. Here's pretty close to what I'm thinking of when I say hedonism (the egoistic hedonism definition):

http://i.word.com/idictionary/hedonism

By my definition hedonism is intrinsically selfish. You are in it for your OWN pleasure first and formost. Even if one of the "Hedonists" I describe might suck a dick, they are doing it for their own pleasure not for the other persons. They are simply USING their dick as a means to their own gratification. It is nothing more then a meat dildo that cums... It's like it's not attached to a living breathing, EQUAL human being.

Does that make sense to you?

 

[Stella_Omega]

So what you are asking is: "Are many/most bisexuals egocentric and selfish?"

I think the guys who are getting their dicks sucked probably wonder why you would even care. Because you know... It's no real hardship to be the object of someone else's pleasure when you're squirting right down his throat. And men can compartmentalise sex. They don't need love, necessarily.

It's like it's not attached to a living breathing, EQUAL human being.

in theory, possibly-- when it's words on the internet.

But in practice, I think most of these guys would easily admit there was a person attached to the dick.

 

[blueberree]

What would be the point of sex with another human being if you didn't find it pleasurable to please them? And hopeful about receiving the same pleasure?

And I agree that most people here are here because they enjoy sex and they enjoy the opportunity to interact with others who enjoy it as well.

 

[deckardB26354]

Can't we all just get along? I forget who said that...

Anyway...two questions: is it really important and who gives a shit? More importantly...what's it to ya?

Amy, are you trying to say that anyone determined to be bi or 'hedonistic' should be kicked off of the site?

"Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the member sucking party?!"

IMO, this thread needs to cool down...you're running the risk of alienating people that are here because of many different things, among them are: anonymity, fear, curiosity and being just good old fashioned horny. People are here for different reasons...to find themselves, to find an answer, to find a partner--if only for the night or even a couple of hours.

So once again...what's it to ya?

 

[HottieMama]

IMO, this thread needs to cool down...

You obviously haven't read many threads here. This is actually, for the most part, a polite civil discussion...

 

[CJontherocks]

Can't we all just get along? I forget who said that...

I think it was Rodney Dangerfield.

 

[Safe_Bet]

You obviously haven't read many threads here. This is actually, for the most part, a polite civil discussion...

I think his sacred ox got a little gored is all.


EDIT: I do find it kindly humorous however, that with the next dozen posts or so all this will be turned around and I will be accused of being an evil hateful bitch who was picking on HIM!

 

[Stella_Omega]

I think his sacred ox got a little gored is all.

What sacred ox, for crissake? What are you even talking about?

EDIT: I do find it kindly humorous however, that with the next dozen posts or so all this will be turned around and I will be accused of being an evil hateful birch who was picking on HIM!

Well, it's nice to see that you aren't entirely oblivious to what you're doing.

Why have you turned into the literotica troll, Amy?

 

[Safe_Bet]

What sacred ox, for crissake? What are you even talking about?
Well, it's nice to see that you aren't entirely oblivious to what you're doing.

Why have you turned into the literotica troll, Amy?

Wow! Didn't even take a second post.


What the fuck is YOUR problem? I'm trying to have a civil discussion about something that interests me. YOU on the other hand leap right out with the attack bullshit.

And you've got the guts to call ME a troll, bitch?

Tell ya what, Stella. Put me on ignore if I offend you so fucking much!

 

[sadangel]

I can only answer your question for myself Amy.
I don't think I am hedonistic at all. I am bisexual. Yes, I married a man and it could have as easily been a female I fell in love with, but it was not. It was the man who became my husband. It happened in spite of gender. It happened because he completes me. He is the Ying to my Yang. I have seen some cases where I'd say the bisexual person was indeed hedonistic...but I don't think that translates to all or most bisexuals being so.

 

[Safe_Bet]

I can only answer your question for myself Amy.
I don't think I am hedonistic at all. I am bisexual. Yes, I married a man and it could have as easily been a female I fell in love with, but it was not. It was the man who became my husband. It happened in spite of gender. It happened because he completes me. He is the Ying to my Yang. I have seen some cases where I'd say the bisexual person was indeed hedonistic...but I don't think that translates to all or most bisexuals being so.

Angel I think you are missing my point or what I'm starting to conclude or whatever the hell it is I'm doing (besides being insulted by varied assholes )

It's not that I'm saying or thinking all bisexuals are Hedonists, in fact it's the opposite. I'm thinking that there is a HUGE difference between real bisexuals who have the capacity to care about a person regardless of their gender and Hedonists who could care less about anything but getting their own pleasure from anybody, regardless of their gender.

Obviously egoist hedonism isn't only limited to Bi's, but I'm just saying that I THINK I see many more people "saying" they are Bi BECAUSE they are Hedonists.

Does that make sense?

 

[Stella_Omega]

What's the difference between "real" bisexuals, who presumably have sex with both men and women, and "egoistic" bisexuals, who also have sex with both men and women?

Is there a difference between egoistic heterosexuals and "real" heteros?

Are there "real" lesbians and lesbians who are make love to their girlfriends only for ego gratification? How can you tell which is which?

 

[Harber]

Are all heteros hedonists? No, some of them are.
Are all homosexuals hedonists? No, some of them are.
Are all bisexuals hedonists? [.............]

Observant fellow Lit's may deduce a pattern.

'Egoist hedonist' just sounds too Freudian, and thus it's liable to be BS. Plus, bisexuality is an obviously more blurred section of the spectrum than full on straighties or gays. So qualifications and specificity is going to be harder, and - I'd argue - far less bloody important and less relevant.

It's just a 'how long is a piece of string' dead end. If some people simply looking for sexual hijinks call themselves 'bi' - so what. What on earth does acknowledging that achieve? Are these Bi Traitors, false flag operators? Should they be fined and told off? Are they to be outed? How should they act instead? Should we put them in a box marked Straight or Gay? 'Pick a team, damnit!'?

This line of questioning is spurious, and gets no one anywhere in terms of exploring the realities of sexuality and expression (it also slightly smacks of community territorialism).

 

[Stella_Omega]

There are three things I want from all bicurious folk;

• I want them to be honest about their curiosity
  
• I want them to ally with the GLBT in our battle for equal rights
  
• I want them to be willing to relinquish their claim on being a member of a cool minority when they are not an acting part of that minority.

Hedonism? no problem AFAIC. Egotism? Hell, plenty of folk are egotistic. If some dude gets off on sucking cock, I know for a fact he will find plenty of men very willing to be his object of pleasure for the night. If something more starts happening, then someone is going to have to rethink his world view. But that's up to that person, not me.

You're trying to assign a moral value to a sexual preference-- or a lack of morals to a lack of sexual preference. It's ridiculous.