Argumentum ad hominem

[JohnEngelman]

Aren't they?

If by "Communist" you mean members of the CPUSA the answer is "No." The American Communist Party consists of several thousand members nationwide. Those of us who hate Trump are of many different points of view. There are millions of us.

 

[JohnEngelman]

Bear in mind that Argumentum ad hominem is not always a fallacy:

The single most important piece of information in any message is the name of the messenger.

It is always a better practice to refute the argument, rather than to criticize the person who makes the argument.

 

[Saint_Ann]

If by "Communist" you mean members of the CPUSA the answer is "No." The American Communist Party consists of several thousand members nationwide. Those of us who hate Trump are of many different points of view. There are millions of us.esse

I guess I would use "communist" generally in place of "those who hate this country" because I believe in being brief.

 

[Rightguide]

If by "Communist" you mean members of the CPUSA the answer is "No." The American Communist Party consists of several thousand members nationwide. Those of us who hate Trump are of many different points of view. There are millions of us.

You should have voted.

 

[JohnEngelman]

I guess I would use "communist" generally in place of "those who hate this country" because I believe in being brief.

Casually calling someone a "communist" is name calling. Nane calling is the lowest form of discourse. I enjoy political arguments, but I think they should be held at the top of this pyramid, rather than the bottom:



https://paulgraham.com/disagree.html

 

[RoryN]

You should have voted.

I have never stated my race.

https://forum.literotica.com/thread...rk-ages-of-a-theorcracy.1569357/post-95402961

You don't know my race, so shut up about it. Because your a racist, you assume I'm white. I've never declared my race.

https://forum.literotica.com/threads/now-that-parents-are-up-in-arms.1547419/post-93921121

I've never stated my race on Lit. It's laughable what you assholes assume without evidence.

https://forum.literotica.com/thread...-file-on-oliver-anthony.1594165/post-97464305

I've never expressed my race here on Lit, ever.

https://forum.literotica.com/thread...airman-of-joint-chiefs.1628719/post-100539669

************

I am white.

https://forum.literotica.com/thread...as-a-true-racist-leader.1401553/post-83880025

Oh, and I'm white not black. Sorry.

https://forum.literotica.com/thread...luke_atmydik-2-years-ago.696017/post-89867509

Yes, I'm, white, and I'm pro American, if that makes me a white nationalist, then make the most of it you cowardly sissy.

https://forum.literotica.com/thread...id-for-by-the-tax-payer.1508623/post-91233408

 

[JohnEngelman]

You should have voted.

I certainly voted against Donald Trump.

I have known card carrying members of the American Communist Party. I have always liked them. They disagreed with me on many issues, but they disagreed while staying agreeable.

After I graduated from college, I took a fascinating seminar on Das Kapital given by a brilliant member of the American Communist Party. His day job was working as a physicist. In addition he was translating a book from Russian to Swedish on behalf of the Soviet Government.

I already owned most of the books on the reading list, including all three volumes of Das Kapital, and an anthology of essays by Karl Marx, and Friedrich Engels. These had been printed in Moscow by Progress Publishers.

When I showed the reading list to my father, Dad, who was an economist said, "He knows a lot about economics."

I read a political thinker for insight, rather than doctrine. On the basis of that seminar and other writings of Marx that I have done I believe that Karl Marx had two valid insights, and that he was mistaken about everything else.

Marx never advocated the totalitarian methods used in his name during the twentieth century. He did inspire them, so he is not completely innocent. During the twentieth century millions of people were not killed in the name of John Stuart Mill.

 

[Rightguide]

I certainly voted against Donald Trump.

I have known card carrying members of the American Communist Party. I have always liked them. They disagreed with me on many issues, but they disagreed while staying agreeable.

After I graduated from college, I took a fascinating seminar on Das Kapital given by a brilliant member of the American Communist Party. His day job was working as a physicist. In addition he was translating a book from Russian to Swedish on behalf of the Soviet Government.

I already owned most of the books on the reading list, including all three volumes of Das Kapital, and an anthology of essays by Karl Marx, and Friedrich Engels. These had been printed in Moscow by Progress Publishers.

When I showed the reading list to my father, Dad, who was an economist said, "He knows a lot about economics."

I read a political thinker for insight, rather than doctrine. On the basis of that seminar and other writings of Marx that I have done I believe that Karl Marx had two valid insights, and that he was mistaken about everything else.

Marx never advocated the totalitarian methods used in his name during the twentieth century. He did inspire them, so he is not completely innocent. During the twentieth century millions of people were not killed in the name of John Stuart Mill.

That’s a lovely dinner-party memoir, but it quietly swaps civility for absolution, hoping that no one notices.

Yes, communists can be pleasant, brilliant, multilingual physicists who smile while disagreeing. Tyrannies are almost never built by cartoon villains; they’re built by intelligent people with impeccable reading lists and very clean hands. That’s not a defense of the ideas, it’s the mechanism by which they spread.

Saying Marx “never advocated totalitarian methods” is like saying an arsonist never explicitly told the fire where to spread. When your framework treats power, class struggle, and historical inevitability as moral engines, you don’t get to act shocked when coercion shows up to do the driving. The body counts were a predictable feature.

And the John Stuart Mill comparison lands precisely because it backfires: liberal ideas don’t require mass graves to function. Marxism, when taken seriously and implemented earnestly, keeps producing them, across cultures, continents, and decades. That’s not bad luck; that’s empirical consistency. So enjoy Marx for “insight rather than doctrine” if you like, but history has already run the experiment. And it didn’t fail politely.

 

[JohnEngelman]

That’s a lovely dinner-party memoir, but it quietly swaps civility for absolution, hoping that no one notices.

Yes, communists can be pleasant, brilliant, multilingual physicists who smile while disagreeing. Tyrannies are almost never built by cartoon villains; they’re built by intelligent people with impeccable reading lists and very clean hands. That’s not a defense of the ideas, it’s the mechanism by which they spread.

Saying Marx “never advocated totalitarian methods” is like saying an arsonist never explicitly told the fire where to spread. When your framework treats power, class struggle, and historical inevitability as moral engines, you don’t get to act shocked when coercion shows up to do the driving. The body counts were a predictable feature.

And the John Stuart Mill comparison lands precisely because it backfires: liberal ideas don’t require mass graves to function. Marxism, when taken seriously and implemented earnestly, keeps producing them, across cultures, continents, and decades. That’s not bad luck; that’s empirical consistency. So enjoy Marx for “insight rather than doctrine” if you like, but history has already run the experiment. And it didn’t fail politely.

What you say is true. It is also true that the Communist Party members I have known have been better people than many of the right wing posters I have meant on the internet.

 

[HisArpy]

That’s a lovely dinner-party memoir, but it quietly swaps civility for absolution, hoping that no one notices.

Yes, communists can be pleasant, brilliant, multilingual physicists who smile while disagreeing. Tyrannies are almost never built by cartoon villains; they’re built by intelligent people with impeccable reading lists and very clean hands. That’s not a defense of the ideas, it’s the mechanism by which they spread.

Saying Marx “never advocated totalitarian methods” is like saying an arsonist never explicitly told the fire where to spread. When your framework treats power, class struggle, and historical inevitability as moral engines, you don’t get to act shocked when coercion shows up to do the driving. The body counts were a predictable feature.

And the John Stuart Mill comparison lands precisely because it backfires: liberal ideas don’t require mass graves to function. Marxism, when taken seriously and implemented earnestly, keeps producing them, across cultures, continents, and decades. That’s not bad luck; that’s empirical consistency. So enjoy Marx for “insight rather than doctrine” if you like, but history has already run the experiment. And it didn’t fail politely.

This is beautifully written.

The difference between your words and his is that you understand that the idolatry inherent in socialism is in fact just greediness on the part of those individuals who see others merely as a source of money and power.

 

[RoryN]

When all you see is racism, you're the one who is the racist.

https://forum.literotica.com/thread...cepts-in-iron-and-wood.1616463/post-101039264

VVVV

You do realize that you just engaged in racism, right?

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/why-you-cant-have-nice-things.1524856/post-92410327

Can't have racism without a white dude in the building somewhere.

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/thread...n-standing-by-for-help.1569604/#post-95420815

Lol. It's like you insist on your racism

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/why-white-supremacy-will-fail.1578418/#post-96098827

You managed to shoehorn a butt load of fat shaming, racism, and misogyny

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/“most-corrupt-presidency-in-the-history-of-the-republic”.1501400/page-4#post-96439329

the left's racism.

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/thread...of-non-white-murderers.1587241/#post-96888089

Quoted as proof of someone's bigotry and racism.

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/unfit-to-be-an-american.1600344/post-98003415

vile Jasmine's overt racism.

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/army-sees-sharp-decline-in-white-recruits.1602636/post-98252342

Lol, you just can't let your racism go, can you?

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/army-sees-sharp-decline-in-white-recruits.1602636/post-98256534

...you open your eyes to finally see that DEI is nothing but racism.

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/this-is-the-threat-to-the-republic.1615106/post-99261761

The green new deal died after it ran into the brown thumb of racism

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/is-there-a-green-new-deal-thread.1615659/post-99304195

And there's the racism post from one of the troll group.

Context :https://forum.literotica.com/thread...ngton-national-cemetery.1617008/post-99505101

you're showing your racism and bigotry.

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/kamala’s-2024-presidential-run.1614931/post-99728164

DEI did nothing except promote racism

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/roundem-up.1632717/post-100955583

Racism is a human condition.

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/thread...s-more-than-17-trillion.1504227/post-91056987

How totally predictable; rubbery getting caught promoting racism

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/ahmaud-arbery.1523540/post-92305182

Your country was founded on systemic racism

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/why-you-cant-have-nice-things.1524856/post-92410170

***

Pro tip: When all you see is the color of someone's skin, YOU are the racist.

https://forum.literotica.com/thread...cepts-in-iron-and-wood.1616463/post-100989152

He was America's second black President.

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/thread...l-need-to-look-at-this.1627294/post-100403619

The saddest part in that the Black segment of society is over-represented in many of the worst things in society.

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/thread...ies-is-white-supremacy.1626065/post-100290065

^someone needs to wake the fuck up and realize that on college campuses, black students are doing this to themselves and thinking it's progress.

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/appeals-court-strikes-down-nasdaq’s-board-diversity-rules.1624041/post-100083542

I ask again; what makes a black woman more powerful than anyone else? Her skin color?

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/thread...umps-brain-is-dementing.1605371/post-98483577

What exactly is it that makes a "black woman" more powerful than any other woman?

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/thread...umps-brain-is-dementing.1605371/post-98477744

Think about it, if all the people who can nominate someone are white supremacists, ain't no black candidate EVER going to get on the ballot.

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/the-election-steal-is-already-underway.1616736/post-99425548

You mean all the BLACK people she kept in prison past their release dates?

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/mountain-sea-change.1619296/post-99666665

First of all, the police aren't treating blacks "more brutally" than whites. That's PURE BULLSHIT.

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/thread...ng-of-guns-is-revolting.1614136/post-99536902

For instance, if the cops are human and they relate to some and hate others, how the fuck are they "racist?" How the fuck do they "brutalize" only blacks? You can't create a narrative where they're middle of the road but simultaneously claim they're all bigots and racists targeting only blacks. Especially when many of the cops you claim are racists against blacks are black. Or hispanic.

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/thread...ng-of-guns-is-revolting.1614136/post-99537406

You've hurt yourself by deciding that your skin color is somehow the cause of everything both good and bad in your life. That you scream about how it's all whities fault that you're black is indicative of the problem being within yourself rather than anything external. .

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/unfit-to-be-an-american.1600344/post-97996746

Illiteracy rates for adult Blacks nationally is 23% - or 77% literacy not 87.1% as you and others say in order to paint a rosier picture

More data which refutes a high literacy rate for blacks

And some more data on the subject

And more

Do you have any cites to any historical data which shows that black slaves had a literacy rate of any significance? Because in addition to the link I gave earlier, there's this...

And this...

Context: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/a-very-happy.1589924/post-97149229

 

[HisArpy]

You are ignoring content by this member. Show ignored content

 

[RoryN]

Ignoring me doesn't make your statements go away.

 

[HisArpy]

You are ignoring content by this member. Show ignored content

 

[Typo Fu Master]

What you say is true. It is also true that the Communist Party members I have known have been better people than many of the right wing posters I have meant on the internet.

I have seen as many mean spirited posters from the left as I have from the right. I don't believe it's fair to judge an entire political ideology based on keyboard warriors hiding behind anonymity.

The internet brings out the best and the worst in people.

 

[RoryN]

I have seen as many mean spirited posters from the left as I have from the right. I don't believe it's fair to judge an entire political ideology based on keyboard warriors hiding behind anonymity.

The internet brings out the best and the worst in people.

https://forum.literotica.com/thread...ane-people-would-agree.1634829/post-101089975

There are extremists in both parties. We see it play out here on a daily basis.

Orly? "Play out here" means Lit members, not the media / stories from elsewhere.

Cite and quote specific examples. "[Username] is one" with no extremist content cited to back it up, is an obvious fail.

 

[Rightguide]

What you say is true. It is also true that the Communist Party members I have known have been better people than many of the right wing posters I have meant on the internet.

The run-of-the-mill street communist is driven by moral adrenaline. He’s certain history has chosen him to be right, even if he can’t quite explain the footnotes. He chants bumper-sticker slogans, knows exactly who the villains are, and believes power will somehow behave itself after his side achieves it. The revolution is always abstract, bloodless, and scheduled for right after finals week. If reality contradicts the theory, reality clearly needs re-education.

The disillusioned intellectual communist, by contrast, ( think Whittaker Chambers) is someone who actually followed the idea to its logical end and recoiled. These were not people who misunderstood Marx; they understood him too well. They saw how a philosophy that claims moral inevitability inevitably demands human sacrifice. They watched as lies became policy, loyalty became a virtue higher than truth, and violence became merely a “historical necessity.” In short, street-level communists think communism just hasn’t been tried correctly. Those who saw the light know it’s been tried sincerely, repeatedly, and with devastating consistency.

 

[Rightguide]

This is beautifully written.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

The difference between your words and his is that you understand that the idolatry inherent in socialism is in fact just greediness on the part of those individuals who see others merely as a source of money and power.

One group chants for justice. The other learned, at great personal cost, that no idea requiring the suppression of truth can ever deliver it. That’s the difference between people who like the theory and people who survived it.

 

[Chernosoth]

These guys are commies. They play LOUD. Nice guys, but I wouldn't put them in charge of anything that requires sobriety.

 

[JohnEngelman]

I have seen as many mean spirited posters from the left as I have from the right. I don't believe it's fair to judge an entire political ideology based on keyboard warriors hiding behind anonymity.

The internet brings out the best and the worst in people.

What you say is true. Because John Engelman is my real name, I try to be polite.

 

[JohnEngelman]

The run-of-the-mill street communist is driven by moral adrenaline. He’s certain history has chosen him to be right, even if he can’t quite explain the footnotes. He chants bumper-sticker slogans, knows exactly who the villains are, and believes power will somehow behave itself after his side achieves it. The revolution is always abstract, bloodless, and scheduled for right after finals week. If reality contradicts the theory, reality clearly needs re-education.

The disillusioned intellectual communist, by contrast, ( think Whittaker Chambers) is someone who actually followed the idea to its logical end and recoiled. These were not people who misunderstood Marx; they understood him too well. They saw how a philosophy that claims moral inevitability inevitably demands human sacrifice. They watched as lies became policy, loyalty became a virtue higher than truth, and violence became merely a “historical necessity.” In short, street-level communists think communism just hasn’t been tried correctly. Those who saw the light know it’s been tried sincerely, repeatedly, and with devastating consistency.

This is how the brilliant Communist Party member I mentioned earlier in this thread learned about capitalism.

His family was poor and did piece work. His father would bring home items to assemble into clip on ties. The family would assemble the ties. His father would turn in the ties to get more items.

Because the brilliant Communist Party member had been a precious child he figured out how to assemble twice the number of ties in the same amount of time.

For a while the family assembled twice the number of ties, doubling their income. The capitalist who owned this operation asked the father, "How are you able to double your output?"

The father told the capitalist. The capitalist taught the new method to all of his workers, and told them, "From now on I will require you to assemble twice the number of ties, but I will pay you half as much for each tie."

This is not the way capitalism is supposed to work. It is the way capitalism sometimes does work for those who have no alternative, and who need to earn a living.

Those who are attracted to the American Communist Party are not attracted by the deficiencies of the Soviet economy. They are repelled by the deficiencies of American capitalism.

 

[Rightguide]

This is how the brilliant Communist Party member I mentioned earlier in this thread learned about capitalism.

His family was poor and did piece work. His father would bring home items to assemble into clip on ties. The family would assemble the ties. His father would turn in the ties to get more items.

Because the brilliant Communist Party member had been a precious child he figured out how to assemble twice the number of ties in the same amount of time.

For a while the family assembled twice the number of ties, doubling their income. The capitalist who owned this operation asked the father, "How are you able to double your output?"

The father told the capitalist. The capitalist taught the new method to all of his workers, and told them, "From now on I will require you to assemble twice the number of ties, but I will pay you half as much for each tie."

This is not the way capitalism is supposed to work. It is the way capitalism sometimes does work for those who have no alternative, and who need to earn a living.

Those who are attracted to the American Communist Party are not attracted by the deficiencies of the Soviet economy. They are repelled by the deficiencies of American capitalism.

That story gets told a lot because it feels like capitalism, but it quietly leaves out the part where capitalism actually exists. What you’ve described isn’t a market; it’s a monopsony, one buyer, no alternatives, no bargaining power, no exit. Capitalism doesn’t say “the boss is always good,” it says power is constrained by competition. When competition is absent, you don’t get capitalism’s strengths, you get its pathologies. Marx mistook those pathologies for the system itself.

Also, notice what did happen in your story: productivity doubled because human ingenuity mattered. That insight, the one Marx couldn’t solve without coercion, is precisely why capitalism works when it’s allowed to. In a functioning market, the worker who invents a better process either negotiates higher pay, takes the idea elsewhere, or becomes the capitalist himself. The villain in the anecdote isn’t private ownership; it’s the lack of choice.

Communists aren’t attracted by how the Soviet economy actually worked. They’re attracted before anyone has to prove results. They fixate on unfair outcomes and avoid the harder question: which system solves those problems without resorting to force, prisons, or lies? Capitalism has defects because humans do. Communism promises to fix humans, and always ends up punishing them instead.

So yes, people are repelled by the failures of American capitalism. But history shows they’re buried by the solutions offered in its place.

 

[Wilson23]

I guess I would use "communist" generally in place of "those who hate this country" because I believe in being brief.

Then you use the word dishonestly. Not even CPUSA members hate this country, no more than Lenin hated Russia.

 

[Wilson23]

It is always a better practice to refute the argument, rather than to criticize the person who makes the argument.

If somebody posts something here from Breitbart, I don't need to read it to know it should be dismissed with contempt.

 

[HisArpy]

Thank you, I appreciate that.

One group chants for justice. The other learned, at great personal cost, that no idea requiring the suppression of truth can ever deliver it. That’s the difference between people who like the theory and people who survived it.

The hidden secret in justice is that it requires force in order to work. In the end justice is just a fancy word for state sponsored punishment based on a Goldilocks type statistical model. It's still force and punishment but it's meted out by those who in reality just want revenge. It's based on a theory that a regulated data set of severity delivers punishment that isn't too harsh or too soft, but is just right.

Unfortunately, Goldilocks is a fairy tale and the bears probably decided she'd make a better dinner than the porridge she ate.