As writers, what's your view of the whole George R. R. Martin writers block brouhaha.

[Kelliezgirl]

I'm not a Martin fan, but I've read a lot of David Weber, and he has several series out there that need an ending, so I can sympathize.

It seems to he a common problem as authors have started these huge, sprawling series. I don't think anyone ever really plans out a 8 or 9 book series. They write a book hoping it will sell and they set up it for a sequel in case it does. Lather, rinse repeat. So more more and more gets added, and the longer a series runs the more pressure there is to really have a satisfying conclusion, which incentivizes just stringing it along a little more.

 

[SimonDoom]

I agree about Daenerys. Her whole arc is based on her "right" to be the queen of Westeros. There is nothing she would be liberating the people of Westeros from, no slavery, no true tyranny. She is going to be the queen because it is her right, no matter how much blood will be spilled for it. There is no inherent righteousness to her cause. Cersei's arc is similar, she just wants to be the queen who actually rules, not just the wife of the ruler.
From a philosophical point of view, Jon Snow and Tyrion are the ones who actually deserve to rule.

Philosophically, yes, but they both made so many bad choices, even if their intentions were good! The whole Jon Snow reveal and story arc almost seemed like a giant series-long MacGuffin, when you consider where it ended up. It literally had nothing to do with the outcome of the story.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

The whole Jon Snow reveal and story arc almost seemed like a giant series-long MacGuffin, when you consider where it ended up. It literally had nothing to do with the outcome of the story.

My thoughts exactly. The whole series was built on that arc, on that particular ground-shaking revelation, only to make it completely irrelevant in the end.
I would have also preferred if there was at least a hint of an explanation in the fantasy sense for the mysterious powers of the red priests and those of the followers of the many-faced god. Just a hint of something that would point to some additional lore and depth. Left like this, it all feels just like something that was needed for the plot and has no world-building value whatsoever. There is so much build-up in the series that practically ended up in a fart.

 

[samhasstories]

Also what was in effect the show tagline, "Winter is Coming": ominous, foreboding, etc. Turned out the winter we were waiting to see amounted to a light dusting of snow in Winterfell, not unlike its summer weather. And a battle that made a few people slightly nervous for half an episode.

 

[CyranoJ]

Martin has been clear for some time that he's written himself into a corner. The mass of stories and characters have grown harder to manage, and he apparently has killed off a character that he later realized he needed. I don't have high hopes for his completing it.

(As for all the further explanations people are concocting for him, I wouldn't put much stock in them. He was a successful writer for nearly a quarter century prior to A Song of Ice and Fire, it isn't "stage fright." And I doubt it's because he's insecure about the notes they completed the HBO show from: writers of all people should know the vast, yawning gap that exists between notes and final product. It's why shows or books completed "from the notes" of such-and-such writer have only a thin connection to what that writer would have actually produced themselves, including Game of Thrones. Pursuant to which: no, people don't "know the ending" in anything but rough outline. That isn't it, either.)

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

So, George R. R. Martin's name crops up quite a lot on this forum, especially when anyone mentions writer's block.

Question: Is it still writer's block if he's still writing?

I mean, it's not like the guy just sits in his home doing nothing. Since book 5 was released, he published a 350-page reference book for that series, five novellas, helped write the first four (?) seasons of GoT, wrote the Nightflyers series for Netflix, and created the entire world for Elden Ring. He's just not writing on the story so many people are waiting for after seeing the first few seasons of GoT and buying the books it was based on.

 

[MillieDynamite]

He has admitted that he has trouble writing about the GOT world and always has. I think writing about one character or set of characters might get old to you.

Question: Is it still writer's block if he's still writing?

I mean, it's not like the guy just sits in his home doing nothing. Since book 5 was released, he published a 350-page reference book for that series, five novellas, helped write the first four (?) seasons of GoT, wrote the Nightflyers series for Netflix, and created the entire world for Elden Ring. He's just not writing on the story so many people are waiting for after seeing the first few seasons of GoT and buying the books it was based on.

 

[CyranoJ]

Question: Is it still writer's block if he's still writing?

I mean, it's not like the guy just sits in his home doing nothing. Since book 5 was released, he published a 350-page reference book for that series, five novellas, helped write the first four (?) seasons of GoT, wrote the Nightflyers series for Netflix, and created the entire world for Elden Ring. He's just not writing on the story so many people are waiting for after seeing the first few seasons of GoT and buying the books it was based on.

This is also very true. The ones I really don't get are the people who rant at him, call him names and denounce him as "lazy" or a "slob" with apparently no knowledge of what his actual output is. Anyone who's really that pressed about ASOIAF needs to let it go.

 

[yibala]

So, George R. R. Martin's name crops up quite a lot on this forum, especially when anyone mentions writer's block. In case anyone has been living under a rock this past decade and in case that rock didn't have HBO, he's been struggling to finish his epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire for the past twelve years and isn't even optimistic (as of this week) that it'll get published by 2025. Each of the books is between 290k and 415k words long and he has so far published five out of a planned seven. At this point, and at the age of 75, even if he does publish book six, very few people expect him to be able to finish book seven.

Book 1 - A Game of Thrones - 1996
Book 2 - A Clash of Kings - 1999
Book 3 - A Storm of Swords - 2000
Book 4 - A Feast for Crows - 2005
Book 5 - A Dance with Dragons - 2011
Book 6 - The Winds of Winter - "Who the hell knows" - Martin this week.

As someone who is struggling to finish even a single 40k novel, I can empathize, but the time it has taken him has caused a lot of controversy - some fans, having paid for the first five books, just want him to get on with it publish the damn thing, whereas others reply that 'he doesn't owe you anything'.

I appreciate the pressure on him and can certainly understand writer's block taking over for even a year or two, it amazes me that he doesn't seem to have the drive to finish what is already a million+ word long book which is already beloved.

(While I can't ban people talking about the TV show and it certainly has had something to do with his writing issues, this thread is really about the creative process of one man)

I agree with others here that I don't see why he'd be motivated to finish. He doesn't need the money. Die hard fans have already got an ending; whatever he writes is just going to be compared (favorably or unfavorably) to that. Martin hit the jackpot as a writer. Why should he keep struggling just to finish a series?

Books 1-3 were some of my favorite fantasy novels. After Storm of Swords, the plot began to wander, introducing new, seemingly extraneous characters and POVs and lacking the clarity and vision of the initial novels. Martin has never been known for his long fiction anyway. His best work before AGOT was short stories, anthologies, and television. So maybe it shouldn't be surprising that a seven novel series is an ordeal.

He did an amazing thing, writing epic fantasy that resonated with millions of people in a way that hasn't been done since Tolkien. I think he should be proud, and I'm happy to discover other talented writers instead of waiting for (another) ending from him.

-Yib

 

[joy_of_cooking]

in between stuffing triple cheeseburgers in it.

and cholesterol level

Slob

Could we not, with the drive by fatphobia?

 

[madelinemasoch]

I am one of those fans still invested in ASOIAF. I have put a lot of thought into this.

1. The show didn't "run out of material" to adapt or "pass the books." After season 4, they stopped adapting it deliberately. They didn't pass the books: they had AFFC and ADWD right in front of them. They just discarded it. Sansa's plotline is exemplary of this: in the books, she's still in the Vale with Littlefinger. In the show, he sells her off to Ramsay (SOMETHING HE'D NEVER DO) and he rapes her: in the books, this character is Jeyne Poole, her friend, posing as Arya.
2. I think they (the showrunners and GRRM) lied to each other. They didn't have a good relationship after this: GRRM stopped writing an episode a season, and would openly praise other TV shows on social media on nights than GoT episodes aired.
3. There were various character conflations of the type I describe with Sansa and Jeyne. I believe Jon was conflated with Aegon and Jon Connington was conflated with Jorah but largely erased. I do not think ANYTHING about the show ending is how the books will actually end. If anything can be said about the show affecting the delay on the books, it's this: casual show fans (locals, as we call them) are going to be PISSED and broken out of their spell when they realize the book ending has NO RESEMBLANCE to the show's last 4 seasons. That MAY be part of his delay, but probably not, to be honest. I think they're barely related.
4. My biggest tinfoil theory is that while the showrunners got the rights by "guessing Jon Snow's mother correctly", I think they guessed it correctly at first and then changed it in the show, because they did not care. I do not think Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's kid. I think he's Ned and Ashara Dayne's kid. Aegon from the books isn't a Blackfyre (such a cope tbh); he's Rhaegar and Lyanna's kid. We have reason to believe character conflation was done in the show even though this isn't "confirmed" because they did it with other characters to streamline and rush to their own slapshod ending. They were trying to end the show as fast as possible and capitalize on the career advancement it gave them while throwing both fans, actors, and crew members under the bus for their own wallets and egos (the showrunners, not GRRM).

 

[NoTalentHack]

Question: Is it still writer's block if he's still writing?

I mean, it's not like the guy just sits in his home doing nothing. Since book 5 was released, he published a 350-page reference book for that series, five novellas, helped write the first four (?) seasons of GoT, wrote the Nightflyers series for Netflix, and created the entire world for Elden Ring. He's just not writing on the story so many people are waiting for after seeing the first few seasons of GoT and buying the books it was based on.

It can be. Blocks can be focused on “this specific thing here,” as opposed to something more general. Especially for a pantser, solving the next problem in a specific story can mean that story is blocked, but another one isn’t. And, again, for a pantser, going off and writing something else can clear it. But that obviously hasn’t worked here.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I suspect his resolution of the Daenerys story arc is more satisfying and convincing than the show's was, but he's probably not inspired to do it because there were so many complaints.

Daenerys's character is an interesting Rorschach test. People saw different things in her depending upon their underlying views, and that led some to be much more surprised and disappointed about what happened than others. I saw her as a potential villain from the beginning, because of her very obvious penchant for cruelty, so I wasn't as surprised as some. But I still think the show handled her evolution badly.

For what it's worth, I've read all the books but gave up on the TV show around, I don't know, series 4 or something. As such, I've heard the outline of Daenerys' arc but haven't seen the implementation and I thought it sounded brilliant - typically GRRM confounding the audience's expectations but also in-line with what is actually written about her in the first few books.

I agree with others here that I don't see why he'd be motivated to finish. He doesn't need the money. Die hard fans have already got an ending; whatever he writes is just going to be compared (favorably or unfavorably) to that. Martin hit the jackpot as a writer. Why should he keep struggling just to finish a series?

Again, maybe it's just because I have the Romantic (with a capital R) vision of the great artist - it shouldn't be about just the money. And I don't think the feedback from the fans is the sole reason either - books 4 and 5 took over a decade together so he was clearly struggling even before the TV show even started.

 

[yibala]

Again, maybe it's just because I have the Romantic (with a capital R) vision of the great artist - it shouldn't be about just the money. And I don't think the feedback from the fans is the sole reason either - books 4 and 5 took over a decade together so he was clearly struggling even before the TV show even started.

It's a good question... why he writes. He certainly doesn't write the kind of formula you'd expect from someone only in it for the money. For a long time after his ASOIAF fame, GRRM still regularly attended cons and hobnobbed with fans and other authors. Maybe he still does. I think he loves the craft and the community. But as a writer, you probably also know there are some stories you're just not motivated to finish. As enthusiastic about them as you once were, and as much effort as you might have already put into them. They become a slog. So what makes you slog through anyway or set it aside indefinitely?

I have two stories now I've commissioned covers for but never finished writing. It's embarrassing. It bugs me to no end. But not enough to force me to keep working on them. We only have so much time.

-Yib

 

[AllenWoody]

I, too, have read all of the published books but only watched the HBO series until it caught up with what Martin had already published. I told myself, “When he publishes the rest of the books I can go back and watch the HBO ending.

Yeah. You may mock me now.

He’s stretched too thin and having too much fun doing other things. Would you rather write chapter eleven of book six of seven, or would you like to go to Morocco for a casting call for the Sand Snakes? Would you rather sit in your studio trying to find the words, or go to a convention where you are thronged with adoring fans?

I’m pretty much done at this point. Even if he publishes book six some day I doubt I’ll be in a hurry to pick it up. After all, by then I will have forgotten much of the story, including book five, which was sort of forgettable anyway. The magic of reading the first several books has long faded.

 

[MajorRewrite]

Books 4 and 5 weren’t good.

It supports my contention that nothing good comes from extending a series beyond 3 books (or chapters here on Lit).

 

[Djmac1031]

I don't wanna judge the guy.

But in all honesty, while I've been tempted to delve into the books, knowing he will most likely never finish them gives me pause.

And the show ending sucked. And the unfortunate side effect of that is it taints my view of the overall story.

Doesn't matter that the show ending wasn't Martin's fault. He's still "guilty" by association.

I think not at least finishing the books will taint his legacy more than if he'd finished and didn't stick the landing.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Books 4 and 5 weren’t good.

It supports my contention that nothing good comes from extending a series beyond 3 books (or chapters here on Lit).

Great point, probably why everyone knows what a Trilogy is but it gets really murky after that.

 

[TomTeacher19]

Martin is a piece of shit. He had a great idea and started a great series.

Then he got greedy for book money and started stretching and reaching to fill pages with substandard garbage.

Then he got the adolescent jerk off boys at HBO to give him TV money with absolutely zero artistic integrity and let them fuck up the whole thing.

But he got richer and richer and did less and less writing (maybe none at all). He gave a crap show a couple crap seasons at the end that he never wrote and they all just did it so they could jerk off on their big piles of money.

Martin is lower than Reek and more despised than cersei and we all know he'll never write again

 

[Bodington]

I imagine upon his death if he hasn't published books six and seven some other author will finally end the series like the examples of Dune and Wheel of Time. Perhaps he has made a contract with another author or even has it stipulated in his Will.

 

[Bodington]

One contrast between the TV show and the books has always mystified me as to discern the rationale why the TV show did not include any scenes of possible lesbian trysts involving Daenerys as in the books. In fact in the scene where the female slave touches Daenerys' belly as a proof example of Daenerys' pregnancy, the latter flinches giving the impression to viewers that lesbian sex would be an anathema to Daenerys.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I imagine upon his death if he hasn't published books six and seven some other author will finally end the series like the examples of Dune and Wheel of Time. Perhaps he has made a contract with another author or even has it stipulated in his Will.

He has mentioned that his will requires all his unpublished notes etc. to be burned, and that his wife wouldn't allow others to write in that universe while she lives. (I assume that means she's heir to his literary estate.)

Martin is lower than Reek and more despised than cersei and we all know he'll never write again

I don't like Martin's stories. (As a whole; some of the non-GoT stuff was okay). I only watched GoT because my partner was into it.

But... if I had the kind of Number One Fans who thought abusing a sibling, covering for the grievous bodily harm/attempted murder of a child, cheating on her spouse and eventually having him murdered, framing a guy for treason (after he spared her life), and all the other shit Cersei does was less despicable than the crime of "not finishing a series"... I'd probably be pocketing the money and fucking off to do something else too.

Meanwhile, there are plenty of other authors writing fantasy. Instead of spending time on being mad at GRRM, why not go check out some of the new stuff that is on the shelves and see if there's anything there y'all enjoy.

 

[bill4672a]

A danger for writers is talking out a story instead of writing it. What happens is that the story gets "finished" in talking about it, and the writer loses the impulse to write it. By "finishing" the novel in creating the GOT HBO series, Martin has lost the impetus to finish writing the story. Psychologically, he is already "done." Whether he can overcome that and recreate the end of the story in the novel and escape the visual "end" in the HBO series remains to be seen.

 

[Abbafan]

He's been talking like most of it was done for six or seven years, now. At times, anyway. At one point he said he was months or a year away. About a year ago he said it was 3/4's done. Now its who the hell knows?

I think he may have just given up or lost interest. Maybe he looked at what he'd written and just wasn't happy with it and didn't want to take another try at it. Or he'd written himself in a corner.

He hasn't published all that much since the fifth book. A few novellas, a couple reference books. Maybe he's lost some of his passion for writing in general. Who knows? He's not saying a whole lot.

 

[HeyAll]

If you pay, you are owed.

If you pay for a book(s) then you are owed an ending within a reasonable time frame.