Assuming the "Deep State" exists, is Trump a threat or a blessing to it?

[KingOrfeo]

Longtime Washington insider Mike Lofgren has a theory, expressed in his book The Deep State, that American public policy is dominated by a "shadow government," a hiding-in-plain-sight network of politically unaccountable bureaucrats and corporations. What it does, mainly, is set the limits of acceptable policy discussion and enforce the "Washington Consensus" of economic neoliberalism and foreign-policy neoconservatism. Excerpt here.

These paradoxes, both within the government and within the ostensibly private economy, are related. They are symptoms of a shadow government ruling the United States that pays little heed to the plain words of the Constitution. Its governing philosophy profoundly influences foreign and national security policy and such domestic matters as spending priorities, trade, investment, income inequality, privatization of government services, media presentation of news, and the whole meaning and worth of citizens’ participation in their government.

I have come to call this shadow government the Deep State. The term was actually coined in Turkey, and is said to be a system composed of high-level elements within the intelligence services, military, security, judiciary, and organized crime. In John le Carré’s recent novel, A Delicate Truth, a character in the book describes the Deep State as “the ever-expanding circle of non-governmental insiders from banking, industry and commerce who were cleared for highly classified information denied to large swathes of Whitehall and Westminster.” I use the term to mean a hybrid association of key elements of government and parts of top-level finance and industry that is effectively able to govern the United States with only limited reference to the consent of the governed as normally expressed through elections.

The Deep State is the big story of our time. It is the red thread that runs through the war on terrorism and the militarization of foreign policy, the financialization and deindustrialization of the American economy, the rise of a plutocratic social structure that has given us the most unequal society in almost a century, and the political dysfunction that has paralyzed day-to-day governance.

This sounds like exactly the kind of thing Trump purportedly campaigned to drain out of Washington -- but, is he really any threat to it?

 

[BotanyBoy]

This sounds like exactly the kind of thing Trump purportedly campaigned to drain out of Washington -- but, is he really any threat to it?

Judging by their reaction he's the scariest fucking thing they have dealt with in a long time.

But in reality? Unlikely...but maaaaaaaaaybe, just maybe, he might shit all over it.

 

[Paul_Chance]

The Deep State is real enough. It wouldn't surprise me that elements of it are threatened by Trump being unpredictable and not accountable so far to the normal machinations of the chattering class.

Robert Reich (Clinton's Secretary of Labor) relates the anecdote in one of his books that he was meeting with the career members of the Labor department while trying to implement Clinton's policies and one of the senior career leaders explained to him that, no matter what he tried to do, they had been there for decades - and he would be gone in a few years - and they would still be there. That is the deep state in action.

Personally, I think most of what is currently feeding the news cycle are the remnants of the Clinton machine striking out in small ways and the remnants of the Obama admin trying to salt the fields before they go. Not all of them, probably not even directed from high levels, but the fiercely loyal Mandarins acting independently.

This too will pass. Then get played out all over again in four or eight years.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Robert Reich (Clinton's Secretary of Labor) relates the anecdote in one of his books that he was meeting with the career members of the Labor department while trying to implement Clinton's policies and one of the senior career leaders explained to him that, no matter what he tried to do, they had been there for decades - and he would be gone in a few years - and they would still be there. That is the deep state in action.

Well, maybe that's just the civil service in action, we already knew about the civil service.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

It's not a "Shadow Government," it is out in the open.


It declared itself during the Lois Lerner affair...

:shrug:​

 

[richard_daily]

Judging by their reaction he's the scariest fucking thing they have dealt with in a long time.

But in reality? Unlikely...but maaaaaaaaaybe, just maybe, he might shit all over it.

No way.

Trump is their pawn, and they'll use him to achieve their goals, just like they used Saddam and 9-11.

That said, I don't believe it's exactly a "deep state", but we ceratinly live in a country run by oligarchs.

 

[BotanyBoy]

No way.

Trump is their pawn, and they'll use him to achieve their goals, just like they used Saddam and 9-11.

The Republican side of it sure....they were sketchy at first and a little freaked out but they are rolling with it.

But the (D) side of that coin?

Freaking the fuck out, on a scale never before seen.

That said, I don't believe it's exactly a "deep state", but we ceratinly live in a country run by oligarchs.

Agreed.

 

[KingOrfeo]

That said, I don't believe it's exactly a "deep state", but we ceratinly live in a country run by oligarchs.

But who do you think wields more power within the oligarchy -- the bureaucrats or the billionaires? Serious question.

 

[BotanyBoy]

But who do you think wields more power within the oligarchy -- the bureaucrats or the billionaires? Serious question.

The bureaucrats for sure.

Pfizer and Monsanto can't come fuck me up and take everything from me just because they feel like it.....the FDA/USDA/EPA/DOJ can, and they do it to people day in and day out.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Reading Peter Dale Scott's Deep State book now, very interesting, he name checks Mike Lofgren alot, who I only know from reading Unz Review.

 

[handysr]

No way.

Trump is their pawn, and they'll use him to achieve their goals, just like they used Saddam and 9-11.

That said, I don't believe it's exactly a "deep state", but we ceratinly live in a country run by oligarchs.

While I've personally seen how some people live and breathe politics, both IRL and online, the thought/idea of a group of people running things from behind the scenes has always made sense to me. I've expressed my opinion from time to time, and even though I may bitch about the current figurehead of any given first world country, the thought of this shadow government always makes me pause. At least mentally.

Some folks chalk it up to the New World Order, Soros, the UN, Bilderberg, the Illuminati, etc, but us mere mortals will never know. What I do believe is that there is a powerful influence behind many prominent politicians, and they help drive the direction of their pawns.

Is Trump one of these pawns? Part of me wants to say yes, because of his upcoming job. For the most part though, I don't think this is the case. I think that this is part of why so many people are flipping the fuck out, because he's an unknown variable. He's sure to have skeletons in his closet, but unlike most politicians he probably doesn't owe the unseen backers a huge debt, so he doesn't have to blindly follow what these potential "shadow government" peoples tell him to do. With the established politicians and media in such a frenzy about this interloper, the easily swayed SJWs parrot back the buzzwords they are fed, and the establishment wants more.

As much as some presidents have been hated for what they do in office, and I'll bitch as much as the next guy, but I don't think their actions are always their fault. obama is a serious asshole for how he's treated our country, but I don't believe that everything is all his idea. It should be fun to see if Trump can withstand the pressure, or if he laughs off the powerful hidden forces and does what he thinks is right. It's not like his ideas are all good, but it's a change anyway.

 

[someoneyouknow]

The bureaucrats for sure.

Pfizer and Monsanto can't come fuck me up and take everything from me just because they feel like it.....the FDA/USDA/EPA/DOJ can, and they do it to people day in and day out.

To some extent, they can. Witness Trump using Eminent Domain (a government function) to take people's land from them:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/08/19/donald-trumps-abuse-of-eminent-domain/?utm_term=.26a6ab6399a1

This same situation occurred in Connecticut where a business, Pfizer ironically enough, had the government do its bidding and take land from people:

http://www.governing.com/columns/eco-engines/Eminent-Domain-Outrage-in.html

When the pockets are deep enough, anything is possible.

 

[Sean]

 

[BotanyBoy]

To some extent, they can. Witness Trump using Eminent Domain (a government function) to take people's land from them:

This same situation occurred in Connecticut where a business, Pfizer ironically enough, had the government do its bidding and take land from people:

Once again, all government shit.

The oligarchs are like mafia bosses.....with no enforcers to go bust heads they are just an old fat fuck with some shit for sale like everyone else.

When the pockets are deep enough, anything is possible.

Only because we vote for and fund that kind of system.

(R) and (D) both love using the government as their for-hire goon squads and we incessantly re-elect the same fucking pieces of shit that do it to us.

 

[doowdniw]

I always thought it was the silent hand of the Illuminati. There's a reason conspiracy theories are called theories. Where is Alex Jones on all this?

 

[KingOrfeo]

James Howard Kunstler writes:

I dunno about you, but I rather enjoy watching the praetorian Deep State go batshit crazy as the day of Trump’s apotheosis approacheth. I imagine a lot of men and women running down the halls of Langley and the Pentagon and a hundred other secret operational redoubts with their hair on fire, wondering how on earth they can neutralize the fucker in the four days remaining.

What’s left in their trick-bag? Bake a poison cheesecake for the inaugural lunch? CIA Chief John Brennan has been reduced to blowing raspberries at the incoming president. Maybe some code cowboys In the Utah NSA fortress can find a way to crash all the markets on Friday as an inauguration present. What does it take? A few strategic HFT spoofs? There will be lots of police sharpshooters on the DC rooftops that day. What might go wrong?

Civil War Two is underway, with an interesting echo of Civil War One: Trump dissed Civil Rights sacred icon Georgia congressman John Lewis, descendant of slaves, after said icon castigated Trump as “not a legitimate president.” That now prompts a congressional walk-out of the swearing-in ceremony. The New York Times is acting like a Manhattan socialite in a divorce proceeding, with fresh hysterics every day, reminding readers in a front-page story on Monday that “[Martin Luther] King’s birthday falls within days of the birthdays of two Confederate generals, Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson.” Jeez! Who you gonna call? Ghostbusters?

There’s not much Trump can do until Friday noon except tweet out his tweets, but one can’t help but wonder what the Deep State can do after that magic moment passes. I’ve maintained for nearly a year that, if elected, Trump would be removed by a coup d’état within sixty days of assuming office, and I still think that’s a pretty good call — though I hope it doesn’t come to that, of course. My view of this was only confirmed by Trump’s performance at last week’s press conference, which seemed, shall we say, a little light on presidential decorum.

Perhaps it befits this particular Deep State to go down in the manner of an opéra bouffe. History repeats itself, first as tragedy, then as farce, old Karl Marx observed. What does the Union stand for this time? The rights of former SEC employees to sell their services to CitiBank? The rights of competing pharma companies to jack the price of insulin up from $20 to $250 a vial? The rights of DIA subcontractors to sell Semtex plastic explosives to the “moderate” jihadis of the Middle East?

So the theme of the moment is that Donald Trump is a bigger crook than the servants and vassals of the Deep State. He ran for president so he could sell more steaks and whiskey under the Trump brand. He’s in violation of the emoluments clause in the constitution. Well, I’m not aware that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, or Andrew Jackson put their slaves in a blind trust after they became president. Anyway, at this point in our history, nobody can beat the Deep State for financial turpitude, certainly not a single real estate and hotel magnate.

I guess the big question is whether the Deep State — and, yes, Virginia, the Deep State does exist, unlike Santa Claus — will tear the country apart in the attempt to defend all its ill-gotten perquisites and privileges. The public at large is restive, eager to get on with the job of deconstructing the matrix of racketeering that adds up to the immiserating culture we live in, a society where health insurance company presidents make $40 million a year while ordinary people lose their homes because a $5,000-deductible health insurance policy doesn’t cover the cost of treating a routine tonsillectomy.

I didn’t vote for the Cheeto-head sonofabitch, but it will be interesting to see what he does between noon and six p.m. Friday, if he survives the festivities.

 

[KingOrfeo]

I always thought it was the silent hand of the Illuminati. There's a reason conspiracy theories are called theories. Where is Alex Jones on all this?

Well, I'm afraid this one is all much too, well, realistic for him. Put some Lizard People in it or he ain't gonna bite.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Is the 'Deep State' Trying to Take Down the Trump Presidency?

The firing of Gen. Michael Flynn has popularized the concept of the "Deep State” across the political spectrum.

Breitbart's Joel Pollak attacks the disloyal "Deep State #Resistance" to President Trump, while conservative pundit Bill Kristol defends it.

“Obviously strongly prefer normal democratic and constitutional politics,” Kristol tweeted Tuesday. “But if it comes to it, prefer the deep state to the Trump state.”

Glenn Greenwald is more even-handed: “Trump presidency is dangerous,” the Intercept columnist tweeted Wednesday. “CIA/Deep State abuse of spy powers to subvert elected Govt is dangerous.”

And the conflict is deepening. The New York Times reports Thursday that Trump wants to bring in Wall Street billionaire Stephen Feinberg “to lead a broad review of American intelligence agencies.”

The idea is reportedly provoking “fierce resistance” from intelligence officials who fear it "could curtail their independence and reduce the flow of information that contradicts the president’s worldview."

 

[Rightguide]

It's not a "Shadow Government," it is out in the open.


It declared itself during the Lois Lerner affair...

:shrug:​

The Shadow Government is the one Obama, Ben Rhodes, Sally Yates, John Brennan are forming a few blocks down the street.

 

[KingOrfeo]

The Shadow Government is the one Obama, Ben Rhodes, Sally Yates, John Brennan are forming a few blocks down the street.

Well, a coup d'etat isn't something you can just throw together at the last minute.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Michael J. Glennon, professor of international law at the Fletcher School of Law & Diplomacy at Tufts University, is pessimistic.

JM: Can/should the Deep State rescue us from Trumpism, as Bill Kristol recently mused?

MG: Bureaucratic checking by the security managers won’t work and is a dangerous idea. It won’t work because, unless the security managers deliver a knockout blow and force Trump out of office within the next few weeks, he’ll use divide-and-conquer tactics to root out the opposition and claim their organizations as his own.

The playbook for dismembering a disliked bureaucracy is widely known to organizational theorists, and it’s only a matter of time before Trump will be able to employ those methods to get control of these agencies. Factions within them will align with Trump to do his bidding and ultimately will come to dominate rival, opposing factions. Trump can then declare victory, as he must do so as to restore public confidence in his own judgment—he is, after all, forced to rely upon their information and analysis in making national security decisions; where else can he look?

At that point the rivalry will cease and the “deep state” will emerge front-and-center as Trump’s overt partner in governance. That’s the more likely scenario.

JM: Sounds positively Putinesque.

MG: An alternative scenario is no more comforting. Under it, a continuing series of leaks and challenges to his authority either drive him from office, through resignation or impeachment, or leave him so enfeebled that he is in effect a ceremonial president taking orders from the security bureaucrats, who operate more or less in plain view.

The managers are in this scenario so widely understood to wear the crown that it’s no longer necessary to hide the fact. Of course, this would represent a very different form of government, and given the historical record of abuse of power by these agencies, there is little reason to believe that their rule would represent a “rescue” in any meaningful sense of the word.

JM: Is it possible to oppose both the Deep State and Trump?

MG: My own sense is that a happy outcome is unlikely and that American democracy is now confronting an abyss. The root of the problem is that, as the result of widespread and pervasive civic, political and historical ignorance, the aspirations of the polity to participate in governance vastly exceeds its capacity to do so responsibly.

In recent days, activism and engagement have spiked, but the base of knowledge needed for effective democratic governance still is not present, and it’s hard to see why or how or when that will change.

If it takes reading 1984 to realize we’ve got a problem, chances are it’s too late to do anything useful about it. I may be wrong, and I hope I am. But the realistic answer, I’m afraid, is that people are waking up too late.

 

[Rightguide]

Well, a coup d'etat isn't something you can just throw together at the last minute.

Obama's plan to energize his Deep State was initiated when he wiretapped Flynn illegally and when he issued an EO 17 days before leaving office to "share globally intercepted personal communications with the government’s 16 other intelligence agencies before applying privacy protections." He did this to protect the traitors he activated in his Deep State and make it more difficult to seek them out. Sessions should immediately impanel a grand jury to investigate Obama's motives and actions, and those of his holdovers, in undermining and subverting the Trump administration's transition.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Obama's plan to energize his Deep State was initiated when he wiretapped Flynn illegally and when he issued an EO 17 days before leaving office to "share globally intercepted personal communications with the government’s 16 other intelligence agencies before applying privacy protections." He did this to protect the traitors he activated in his Deep State and make it more difficult to seek them out.

How would doing that conceal their identities?

 

[Rightguide]

How would doing that conceal their identities?

Shear numbers of possibilities caused by the increased dissemination of data makes it more difficult, but they can and will be found.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Shear numbers of possibilities caused by the increased dissemination of data makes it more difficult, but they can and will be found.

Well, they ain't been yet. I wonder if Trump has even thought of ordering the FBI to look for them?