Avoiding Toxic Masculinity in BDSM

[Primalex]

Question is what to do about it?
Some seem to want to go back to how it used to be, but they also seem (at least to me) to be romanticizeing to the point of actually fictionalizing it.

On an individual level, I think everyone has to pick their own balance point between belonging to a group and paying with some individuality and freedom or ”freedom’s just another word for nothing left to loose”.

On a society level though? Or to bring it back to the OP at least somewhat, in the BDSM community at large or locally?

Does the BDSM community glorify toxic masculinity?

I can't come up with anything right now (then again, my sleep wasn't the best). But that's the problem again, what is the sign? If I watch her crying from pain and don't comfort her (yet), is this "toxic stoicism" or part of the scene? In how many pictures of "BDSM role model man pinning the woman against the wall" do we see a guy that is actually only putting on an act? We don't know if he thinks:"Yeah, look at me bitches, I'm an alpha male!"
The BDSM communities are already fighting the "Dear vanilla person, the symptom you are seeing is not a sign of abuse." I have no idea how this could be successfully combined with the complete opposite message without ending BDSM.



Does the BDSM community tolerate toxic masculinity?

Well, this thread has shown that the answer is:"Yes, if it comes from the right persons". If more people in the community complain about me using the "f" word than about someone using gender subversion it seems to be a logical conclusion. Or is using the "f" word more toxic than gender subversion, because swearing is active aggression, while gender subversion is more passive-aggressive and so...less masculine and less problematic? I have no idea what the train of thought is of someone who wants to fight toxic masculinity but then refuses to call it out when it jumps in your face. And not even just refuse to call it out, but even "like" it. And not even just like it, but ridicule the one person calling it out.
This is the most alien thing for me. You can suck my cock and eagerly swallow all of my cum and I will still call you out five minutes later if I think you've done some bullshit. And if this means no more soft wet mouth for me and to jerk off for a month, so be it then. Maybe it's the wrong approach, I could use more oral sex in my life. Maybe I just frame my self destructive ability to destroy meaningful connections as something positive. Who knows.


Do we have slippery slopes? Definitely, in my opinion.

The whole degradation / misogynistic field is fertile soil for toxic masculinity and I'm pretty sure that it's able to radicalize some men, did so in the past and is going to do so in the future. What can we do about it? We can't really call it out, because we can't distinguish it from the BDSM scene. I guess the only option is something like the "smoking kills" stickers on cigarettes to raise or maintain awareness. Do we reach the persons we want to reach with this or are we just preaching to the choir with this? I have no idea.

 

[Primalex]

When you talk about stage 1 and stage 3, are these the ones you mean?

Oh, ahem, yes.

 

[KimGordon67]

Okay, but I will respond.

The reality is that people start with a good idea and while pursuing this idea, they end up in not very good implementations. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"Women have the same worth as men!" -> "Women don't just belong in the kitchen and bedroom!" -> "You are seeking a 1950s relationship?! You are a disgrace to women."

Maybe some of the contributors here are genuinely somewhere at the "good idea" part of it and I wrongly position them somewhere else in the chain. Then this is not a malicious act. The reality though is that we have reached the bad implementation ideas stage in society, especially in the corresponding echo chambers. I don't mind bad ideas in echo chambers, I mind when they spill over and extremists try to implement them. If I don't know where your point of view is on the chart above, then I will more likely assume you are supporting the bad implementations stage, too. Especially when I get the impression that you are merely regurgitating slogans from the echo chambers.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding some contributors because I'm seeing them through the stage 3 glasses. Maybe you are misunderstanding some contributors, because you are seeing them through the stage 1 glasses.

PLP19s first two contributions were not worded as stage 1 post. That's a hill I'm going to die on.

This is an incredibly weird interpretation of how social change happens. Let me offer an alternative:

"Women have the same worth as men!" -> "Women don't just belong in the kitchen and bedroom!" -> "You are seeking a 1950s relationship?! You are a disgrace to women." replaced with "Women gain something close to equal representation in the paid workforce, and equal pay, and men take up some of the responsibilities associated with domestic labour and childcare, and everyone's a bit happier [massively over-simplified but you get my point]."

I think you are paying too much attention to the (admittedly often loud) extremist voices. Maybe, instead, think 'Hmmm, if a lot of women and some men say that something they call 'toxic masculinity' is an issue in their day-to-day lives, possible it's worth considering that this is a valid perspective, and it might be worth looking into what this concept means'. Or just ignore it all. But instead you chose to get all defensive and start down the 'not all men' track (or something like that ... I honestly lost track of the argument a couple of pages back).

There's always going to be dissenting voices on things. That's often how a workable consensus is finally reached. This is particular the case in feminism (and I'm sure in other political movements - feminism just happens to be the one with which I'm most familiar.) Here's an example ... an actual example, not that weird chain of 'statements' that you constructed. I'm working with material on prostitution at the moment. All of it is written from a feminist perspective, and all of it says qualitatively different things about prostitution. Some of it I think 'yeah, right on, that makes total sense', some of it I think 'Hmmm ...?' and some of it I think 'Well, clearly this is batshit crazy'. But I don't assume the batshit crazy perspective defines ALL feminist perspectives on prostitution ... although it was part of the original feminist perspective on prostitution, and from there more sensible (IMO) perspectives emerged.

 

[Primalex]

think you are paying too much attention to the (admittedly often loud) extremist voices.

Ignoring extremists does not seem to work very well to prevent that they gain momentum. That's the problem.

But instead you chose to get all defensive

"Defensive" - everyone here "defends" their point of view. This is why it's a discussion and not a circle jerk. Well, I know that some here would love this to be a circle jerk instead and likely even expected this to become one and I understand that I must be the party pooper. How can I dare to discuss masculinity as a man!

and start down the 'not all men' track (or something like that ... I honestly lost track of the argument a couple of pages back).

Obviously, because I've never been on that track nor denied the existence of toxic masculinity. The one who did so was wallstreetguy. Hell, I've written an example of it myself here. I did reject that toxic masculinity is promoted in the BDSM community. I'm still waiting for an example by the way.

 

[KimGordon67]

Ignoring extremists does not seem to work very well to prevent that they gain momentum. That's the problem.



"Defensive" - everyone here "defends" their point of view. This is why it's a discussion and not a circle jerk. Well, I know that some here would love this to be a circle jerk instead and likely even expected this to become one and I understand that I must be the party pooper. How can I dare to discuss masculinity as a man!


Obviously, because I've never been on that track nor denied the existence of toxic masculinity. The one who did so was wallstreetguy. Hell, I've written an example of it myself here. I did reject that toxic masculinity is promoted in the BDSM community. I'm still waiting for an example by the way.

Oh. Right. The Asshat PM thread is full of examples.

 

[Primalex]

Oh. Right. The Asshat PM thread is full of examples.

This is the core problem - people who refuse to read what I've written.

 

[KimGordon67]

This is the core problem - people who refuse to read what I've written.

lmao - this from the guy who engaged with approximately 1.5 of the sentences from the three-paragraph post that I made.

I'm out of this discussion ... it was interesting to begin with, way back at the beginning, but it's just gotten incredibly hair-splitting and noisy since then. Have fun.

 

[Primalex]

lmao - this from the guy who engaged with approximately 1.5 of the sentences from the three-paragraph post that I made.

I've read it. I've even understood it.

I just don't see the point in making a whole multiversum graph of all possible results of desirable and undesirable changes for no reason. I had no idea that someone could interpret the graph as:"The only possible result out of the Women's Right movement is people bashing 1950s relationship." or believe that I lack so much knowledge that I could believe that nothing positive resulted out of the Women's Right movement. Seriously?

Nothing, really nothing would be different if I had written:
"Women have the same worth as men!" -> "Women don't just belong in the kitchen and bedroom!" -> "You are seeking a 1950s relationship?! You are a disgrace to women."
"Women have the same worth as men!" -> "Women deserve equal pay!" -> "Gender pay gap decreases!"

Let's talk about the first case.

I'm out of this discussion ... it was interesting to begin with, way back at the beginning, but it's just gotten incredibly hair-splitting and noisy since then. Have fun.

For every single contributor in this thread:

Do not discuss with me further if you believe that

"Toxic masculinity is promoted in the BDSM community."
and
"Toxic masculinity exists in the BDSM community."
is the same sentence with the same meaning, especially if I have even highlighted the verb to show its significance in the sentence. It is not the same sentence. The difference is not hair-splitting. If you believe the difference between these two sentences is hair-splitting, cease any further discussion with me, we will never be able to properly exchange information.

 

[IrisAlthea]

I would argue the same argument applies to forms of femininity that are potentially emotionally damaging to those who perform it for themselves, but that territory can get dangerous and I'm not going there in this thread.

I agree.
I don’t know what you mean by dangerous but it’s certainly hard to talk about with people.

Does the BDSM community glorify toxic masculinity?

I can't come up with anything right now (then again, my sleep wasn't the best). But that's the problem again, what is the sign? If I watch her crying from pain and don't comfort her (yet), is this "toxic stoicism" or part of the scene? In how many pictures of "BDSM role model man pinning the woman against the wall" do we see a guy that is actually only putting on an act? We don't know if he thinks:"Yeah, look at me bitches, I'm an alpha male!"
The BDSM communities are already fighting the "Dear vanilla person, the symptom you are seeing is not a sign of abuse." I have no idea how this could be successfully combined with the complete opposite message without ending BDSM.



Does the BDSM community tolerate toxic masculinity?

Well, this thread has shown that the answer is:"Yes, if it comes from the right persons". If more people in the community complain about me using the "f" word than about someone using gender subversion it seems to be a logical conclusion. Or is using the "f" word more toxic than gender subversion, because swearing is active aggression, while gender subversion is more passive-aggressive and so...less masculine and less problematic? I have no idea what the train of thought is of someone who wants to fight toxic masculinity but then refuses to call it out when it jumps in your face. And not even just refuse to call it out, but even "like" it. And not even just like it, but ridicule the one person calling it out.
This is the most alien thing for me. You can suck my cock and eagerly swallow all of my cum and I will still call you out five minutes later if I think you've done some bullshit. And if this means no more soft wet mouth for me and to jerk off for a month, so be it then. Maybe it's the wrong approach, I could use more oral sex in my life. Maybe I just frame my self destructive ability to destroy meaningful connections as something positive. Who knows.


Do we have slippery slopes? Definitely, in my opinion.

The whole degradation / misogynistic field is fertile soil for toxic masculinity and I'm pretty sure that it's able to radicalize some men, did so in the past and is going to do so in the future. What can we do about it? We can't really call it out, because we can't distinguish it from the BDSM scene. I guess the only option is something like the "smoking kills" stickers on cigarettes to raise or maintain awareness. Do we reach the persons we want to reach with this or are we just preaching to the choir with this? I have no idea.

I think the BDSM community is diverse enough to find examples of most behaviours and of someone glorifying them.
I think it does provide a cover for certain types of behaviour, much the same as ”it was a joke” and for people who have their own agendas in one way or another.
I do believe in openly discussing it and asking questions when something feels off. Not as in bargeing in white hat style in someones scene perhaps but as in ”Hey, this and that makes me uncomfortable/feel off, what’s the deal?”
Yes, my alias is Ms Awkward who makes everyone uncomfortable.

As for the pictures and the porn…to me it is fantasy land. The reality behind it has it’s own set of problems, but I can’t say I find much difference between the BDSM variety and the mainstreem when it comes to toxicity. And sometimes I don’t find much difference, period.

I think you are right about the slippery slope that opens when you play with certain themes. We don’t tell people that you teach others how to treat you by allowing things, for nothing.
Teaching awareness so people can be mindful of signs like resentment, contempt etc spreading outside if the given parameters, limits sliding uncomfortably is a good thing. Checking in respectfully when you see something that seems called for and accepting people doing so too.
Preaching to the choir and hopefullty to the ones who are unaware but wellmeaning.
The less wellmeaning, you need to call out when you find them I think.

Oh, ahem, yes.

I do that too when I have been arguing stuff in my head first.

This is an incredibly weird interpretation of how social change happens. Let me offer an alternative:

"Women have the same worth as men!" -> "Women don't just belong in the kitchen and bedroom!" -> "You are seeking a 1950s relationship?! You are a disgrace to women." replaced with "Women gain something close to equal representation in the paid workforce, and equal pay, and men take up some of the responsibilities associated with domestic labour and childcare, and everyone's a bit happier [massively over-simplified but you get my point]."

I think you are paying too much attention to the (admittedly often loud) extremist voices. Maybe, instead, think 'Hmmm, if a lot of women and some men say that something they call 'toxic masculinity' is an issue in their day-to-day lives, possible it's worth considering that this is a valid perspective, and it might be worth looking into what this concept means'. Or just ignore it all. But instead you chose to get all defensive and start down the 'not all men' track (or something like that ... I honestly lost track of the argument a couple of pages back).

There's always going to be dissenting voices on things. That's often how a workable consensus is finally reached. This is particular the case in feminism (and I'm sure in other political movements - feminism just happens to be the one with which I'm most familiar.) Here's an example ... an actual example, not that weird chain of 'statements' that you constructed. I'm working with material on prostitution at the moment. All of it is written from a feminist perspective, and all of it says qualitatively different things about prostitution. Some of it I think 'yeah, right on, that makes total sense', some of it I think 'Hmmm ...?' and some of it I think 'Well, clearly this is batshit crazy'. But I don't assume the batshit crazy perspective defines ALL feminist perspectives on prostitution ... although it was part of the original feminist perspective on prostitution, and from there more sensible (IMO) perspectives emerged.

I think it does look a bit differenly depending on where you are in the world.

For me or rather where I am:

"Women gain something close to equal representation in the paid workforce, and equal pay, and men take up some of the responsibilities associated with domestic labour and childcare, and everyone's a bit happier [massively over-simplified but you get my point]."

Is not yet quite the case, but things have come a long way.
Being a stay at home wife would certainly make people look at you as if you had grown another head though and not just an extremist minority. Being too much of a working mom will still catch flack and try sex work if you really want people to question your right and ability to make a choice for yourself as a woman.

 

[KimGordon67]

For me or rather where I am:


Is not yet quite the case, but things have come a long way.
Being a stay at home wife would certainly make people look at you as if you had grown another head though and not just an extremist minority. Being too much of a working mom will still catch flack and try sex work if you really want people to question your right and ability to make a choice for yourself as a woman.

As I'm sure you know, there are literally entire books written about this dilemma. I just couldn't be arsed getting into the detail - it wasn't really necessary for my point to be made about where you choose to focus your attention (and it's also really an entirely different thread). (Also, I do know people who opted to be stay-at-home mums ... and sometimes dads. I think people are getting a little less weird about that decision.)

 

[twister947]

I post this, because the topic of toxic masculinity is being raised over last night's kerfuffle. FWIW...

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/28/1089...slap-will-smith-gave-chris-rock-at-the-oscars

 

[emme8]

I want to add my 2 cents as a wife and as a mother of sons. I have seen several instances where the men in my life have to be on much better behavior and much more careful than I would need to be.

There are times when the my husband's or son's masculinity may have appeared toxic at a glance, but upon a honest evaluation it is at least justified.

For instance i thought my husband almost got into fight over a parking space. Later when I asked him WTF happened. He told me that he had perceived a immediate threat against me, (pregnant and carrying a baby in my arms) before he even responded to the man. I had not perceived what was yelled at me to be threatening, just a jerk. Maybe my husband jumped to a wrong conclusion, but Defending his wife and baby is a husband's job.
In contrast when we found out about a classroom bully touching our daughter inappropriately, he was able to report the situation to the school and to allow the school to handle it. He knew it could be handled better by allowing the school to do their thing. (He also taught my daughter to defend herself and give the kid a black eyes if it ever happened again). It was handled and we never had it escalate.

One of the proudest moments I had as a parent is when I found out me son beat up another bully years later that was picking on another kid in the neighborhood. Was my son the displaying toxic masculinity but intervening? Maybe, but the bully stop being a bully.

Truthfully what annoys me most is when he picks up the more "feminine " caretaker trait and cooks today vegetables for dinner or harassed me about restaurant choices when I travel. Not for weight reasons, for health reasons.

 

[KimGordon67]

I post this, because the topic of toxic masculinity is being raised over last night's kerfuffle. FWIW...

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/28/1089...slap-will-smith-gave-chris-rock-at-the-oscars

Yes ... this is so germane to so much of what's going on in various bits of my life ATM. But a perfect example of when 'good' (i.e. 'protective') masculinity goes wrong. Smith could have just supported his wife in whatever action she chose to take ... which would have been a 'not toxic' way for a man to behave in these situations. Instead, he ... well, he didn't do that.
Rock was also less than awesome here - attacking women who are clearly insecure about their appearance, especially in an industry in which being subject to the male gaze is very core to it's workings, is pretty crap ... although I don't think it quite qualifies as toxic masculinity. He's just a dick.

 

[KimGordon67]

This is your experience. Defending his wife and baby is your husband's job. And that's totally fine! Wanted to say this was a generalizing comment for those of us who are married and don't have the kind of relationships you have... (Or, are about to be married and pregnant. Fingers crossed, it's expensive as hell for us!)

To comment on how it almost escalated into a fight, I obviously don't know all of the details, but people also yell stuff at me all the time on the street whether I am presenting masculine or feminine (AKA, either they assume me to be a cis woman or they take me for a "faggot" or, worse, a trans woman! Gasp! As I have often been mistaken for...). It will happen when I'm alone, and it will happen when I'm with my man, too.

He ignores it. I ignore it. Y'know why? Because these people are goddamn crazy. If someone is willing to yell at me on the sidewalk and not from the relative safety of their car, then I generally don't want to escalate the situation by responding to them and provoking their anger. One time, a man who was already angry at the world saw me walking by myself, me being bearded and wearing the most inoffensive masculine casual clothes, and yanked my earphones out of my ears to yell at me. What the fuck am I going to do, yell back? No. He didn't continue to threaten me because I just kept walking and completely ignored him. He was probably mentally ill, on a drug-induced psychotic break, or otherwise sober but very passionate and angry in the moment, refusing to control his actions in response to his feelings. It had nothing to do with me.

For the times when I'm being targeted for my femininity, and my fiancé is not responding, he's doing the right thing. I don't want it to escalate. That's dangerous. You don't know what kind of heat someone is packing around here. And even barring that, you don't know how tough they are, bare knuckles. Even barring that? It's not good for our mental health to pick fights with these idiots. It feeds anger issues, it makes enemies on the streets, the catharsis doesn't last forever, and it is not a good emotional resolution.

If it's going to happen, then it happens. Threatening them with violence will not stop an actually-violent person. It will just provoke the situation. Like my mother once said, let them start the fight. But, that's why us more vulnerable people travel in packs, anyway. We are less likely to be attacked, and we just get catcalled and hollered at by "braver" passersby on the sidewalk and in their cars.

I'm really sorry that this is part of your everyday life. It's been many years since I've had random men engage with me in a threatening way in public, but I remember how much it sucked. I fucking hate that people think this sort of thing is somehow 'OK' ... or even that they'd WANT to engage with other humans like this.

 

[Primalex]

Smith could have just supported his wife in whatever action she chose to take ... which would have been a 'not toxic' way for a man to behave in these situations.

Isn't "doing nothing and letting abuse happen and then being ashamed and traumatized for not having reacted" a likely choice of the wife in this situation though? Why is this outcome the morally superior one, where the victim pays the full price and the abuser none?

 

[IrisAlthea]

I post this, because the topic of toxic masculinity is being raised over last night's kerfuffle. FWIW...

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/28/1089...slap-will-smith-gave-chris-rock-at-the-oscars

First, speaking of toxic, I have to question why these prize ceremonies are linked to this re-enactment of school yard hazing.
It’s not like we hand out the Nobel Prize in Physics and then say ”and by the way, your toupé is ugly, hahaha”.

A debate was held at the Althea house yesterday.
I woke up and read an account by someone who had stayed up and watched the show. He had linked a short clip and article saying that Ms Pinkett Smith had an illness etc.

Background: Daughter asked me recently if I too get this itch in my palm, wanting to slap stupid people and assholes. I told her that I know the feeling but that her hand will get very tired if she acts on the itch all the time. She asked if I know that by experience and I said it eas from extrapolation from a sample…

So I felt some sympathy and empathy with Mr Smith.

During the day I read and heard a lot of debate about it with people assuming he would be violent with his family etc based on this.

When we talked about it in the evening I realized my husband found it an outrageous overreaction. He told me it was about alopecia and not the more serious illness I had thought about and we looked at a longer clip. He also pointed out that it is hard to escalate if you start with violence at tgat point.
I pointed out that we have both done much the same as Mr Smith and with closed fist too and he pointed out that it has been a few decades.

TL;DR So yes, I walked it back a bit. It was an overreaction.
That it would be about feeling that you own the woman or that you would automatically be abusive to your family, seems at least as much of an overreaction though.


Looking at Ms Pinkett Smiths reaction, I wonder what happened there though. Because that comment hit hard and I think she has heard worse.
Someone said ”And they say that women are ruled by their emotions” and having seen the speak and appologies later, it seems very emotional and uncontrolled.
I think there is more backstory to this.

 

[Winter_Fare]

I post this, because the topic of toxic masculinity is being raised over last night's kerfuffle. FWIW...

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/28/1089...slap-will-smith-gave-chris-rock-at-the-oscars

They both did something stupid. Rock does stupid things for a living, sometimes they're funny, this time not so much. Smith should have known better, you don't answer words with violence. He made a fool of himself, set a bad example. It wasn't a binary situation. Action short of smacking Rock upside the head would have been more effective all round.

 

[Primalex]

Action short of smacking Rock upside the head would have been more effective all round.

Not sure if we have the same definition of effective. His action was 100% effective in stopping Chris Rock; that's pretty effective.

But the really silly thing is, that you (and some other people here) believe anyone can win a heckling contest against a professional stand-up comedian, who has literal decades of experience how to deal with people from the audience yelling for not liking one of his jokes and how to make a joke out of this, too.

 

[twister947]

Lost in all of this: the "joke" (that was no joke at all) was more offensive than the bitch slap. That's the conversation the World should be having.

 

[Winter_Fare]

Not sure if we have the same definition of effective. His action was 100% effective in stopping Chris Rock; that's pretty effective.

But the really silly thing is, that you (and some other people here) believe anyone can win a heckling contest against a professional stand-up comedian, who has literal decades of experience how to deal with people from the audience yelling for not liking one of his jokes and how to make a joke out of this, too.

Oh... Silly me. Piss off though xxx

 

[Primalex]

So, where is the line?

You don't punch down. You don't kick someone who is already on the floor. It's not really difficult.

 

[IrisAlthea]

I want to add my 2 cents as a wife and as a mother of sons. I have seen several instances where the men in my life have to be on much better behavior and much more careful than I would need to be.

There are times when the my husband's or son's masculinity may have appeared toxic at a glance, but upon a honest evaluation it is at least justified.

For instance i thought my husband almost got into fight over a parking space. Later when I asked him WTF happened. He told me that he had perceived a immediate threat against me, (pregnant and carrying a baby in my arms) before he even responded to the man. I had not perceived what was yelled at me to be threatening, just a jerk. Maybe my husband jumped to a wrong conclusion, but Defending his wife and baby is a husband's job.
In contrast when we found out about a classroom bully touching our daughter inappropriately, he was able to report the situation to the school and to allow the school to handle it. He knew it could be handled better by allowing the school to do their thing. (He also taught my daughter to defend herself and give the kid a black eyes if it ever happened again). It was handled and we never had it escalate.

One of the proudest moments I had as a parent is when I found out me son beat up another bully years later that was picking on another kid in the neighborhood. Was my son the displaying toxic masculinity but intervening? Maybe, but the bully stop being a bully.

I think it is still a pretty established idea that the man is to be the protector but as I wrote to wallstreetguy earlier, it looks different in different cases. If the guy is in a wheelchair or if she is a kick boxer etc, it changes things.
I think this can be a huge source of pressure for men in a relationship.

This is your experience. Defending his wife and baby is your husband's job. And that's totally fine! Wanted to say this was a generalizing comment for those of us who are married and don't have the kind of relationships you have... (Or, are about to be married and pregnant. Fingers crossed

Yes, I think this is something that you have to work out in every relationship and sometimes even in tight groups of friends or collegues in some cases.
For me personally it is a given that it is a shared responsibility, but with different tasks. Like I stay vigilant and aware of my surroundings, even when walking with a large male with a scary resting face. And when in a ”bad place”/”bad company”, I try to not provoke anything with my behaviour. I used to hang out with a guy who had a talent for pissing off the biggest badass in the room and leave others to handle it. Not a keeper.
In some cases, I can make use of the fact that I look way less threatening and sometimes just make sure to not get in his way.

*Fingers crossed*

To comment on how it almost escalated into a fight, I obviously don't know all of the details, but people also yell stuff at me all the time on the street whether I am presenting masculine or feminine (AKA, either they assume me to be a cis woman or they take me for a "faggot" or, worse, a trans woman! Gasp! As I have often been mistaken for...). It will happen when I'm alone, and it will happen when I'm with my man, too.

He ignores it. I ignore it. Y'know why? Because these people are goddamn crazy. If someone is willing to yell at me on the sidewalk and not from the relative safety of their car, then I generally don't want to escalate the situation by responding to them and provoking their anger. One time, a man who was already angry at the world saw me walking by myself, me being bearded and wearing the most inoffensive masculine casual clothes, and yanked my earphones out of my ears to yell at me. What the fuck am I going to do, yell back? No. He didn't continue to threaten me because I just kept walking and completely ignored him. He was probably mentally ill, on a drug-induced psychotic break, or otherwise sober but very passionate and angry in the moment, refusing to control his actions in response to his feelings. It had nothing to do with me.

For the times when I'm being targeted for my femininity, and my fiancé is not responding, he's doing the right thing. I don't want it to escalate. That's dangerous. You don't know what kind of heat someone is packing around here. And even barring that, you don't know how tough they are, bare knuckles. Even barring that? It's not good for our mental health to pick fights with these idiots. It feeds anger issues, it makes enemies on the streets, the catharsis doesn't last forever, and it is not a good emotional resolution.

If it's going to happen, then it happens. Threatening them with violence will not stop an actually-violent person. It will just provoke the situation. Like my mother once said, let them start the fight. But, that's why us more vulnerable people travel in packs, anyway. We are less likely to be attacked, and we just get catcalled and hollered at by "braver" passersby on the sidewalk and in their cars.

It’s hard to know when attack is the best defense and when it’s not. The low affect, deescalating method is great until it is really bad and it’s usually a split second decision.
I’m sorry you have to spend so much energy on things many of us get to avoid just by being.

Not sure if we have the same definition of effective. His action was 100% effective in stopping Chris Rock; that's pretty effective.

100% effective in the moment, but perhaps causing trouble long term.
Question is if there would have been a possible solution 100% effective, both short and long term, wher you don’t have to appologize later.
And yes, heckling back would be a poor choice in this case.

Again, split sec decision and an emotional one to boot.

You don't punch down. You don't kick someone who is already on the floor. It's not really difficult

It’s what I grew up with, but also to keep a cool head, think first and to choose the least ”harsh” but still effective solution.
And yes, I failed miserably at those latter things but got better over the years.

 

[twister947]

I'm not sure the effectiveness was limited to "in the moment"...Chris Rock, and uncountable others, will remember this for a long time.

Thing is, this was all over the news yesterday, and will be discussed for some time to come. If the Smiths had let it pass, if it was mentioned at all, it would be buried on page three.

 

[IrisAlthea]

I'm not sure the effectiveness was limited to "in the moment"...Chris Rock, and uncountable others, will remember this for a long time.

Thing is, this was all over the news yesterday, and will be discussed for some time to come. If the Smiths had let it pass, if it was mentioned at all, it would be buried on page three.

True.
I was thinking more about effective for the Smiths.

 

[Primalex]

Isn't "doing nothing and letting abuse happen and then being ashamed and traumatized for not having reacted" a likely choice of the wife in this situation though? Why is this outcome the morally superior one, where the victim pays the full price and the abuser none?

I like how nobody is telling me that I have no idea what I'm talking about. I guess it's only masculinity I have no clue about then.