Avoiding Toxic Masculinity in BDSM

[Primalex]

A man that is confident in his masculinity has no need to perform for others to prove his masculinity to them or himself.

People are, of course, ‘allowed to’ perform whatever legal behaviors they choose to.

I'm sorry, I was pretty sure it would have been obvious that I'm not talking about the legal point of view; after all, there isn't much to debate about the fact that legal things are legal and illegal things are illegal.

Let me rephrase my question:

Is it mutually exclusive to be a confident man and display masculinity?

 

[KatieDoes]

I'm sorry, I was pretty sure it would have been obvious that I'm not talking about the legal point of view; after all, there isn't much to debate about the fact that legal things are legal and illegal things are illegal.

Let me rephrase my question:

Is it mutually exclusive to be a confident man and display masculinity?

I think you’re under the mistaken impression someone is trying to make the case that all masculinity is toxic.

No one is saying that at all.

Men that are confident in their masculinity display it without performative toxicity.

 

[Primalex]

I think you’re under the mistaken impression someone is trying to make the case that all masculinity is toxic.

No one is saying that at all.

No, I'm under the impression that you are trying to paint the existence of superhero man, who embodies all positive traits and on the opposite side the toxic man, who embodies all negative traits.

Men that are confident in their masculinity display it without performative toxicity.

After all, why else are you so keen to make a connection with "confidence"? "Men should not behave in a toxic way" would be completely sufficient. Yet, it seems to be very important for you to distinguish between confident men and not so confident men.

I mean, the (older) James Bond is so toxic, that he sexually coerces and assaults women. I've never heard anyone saying that James Bond is an archetype for insecurity.

And the problem I have with this is, that you are just fueling the existing toxic stereotypes of what a "real man" has to be or how a "real man" has to act or what a "real dominant" is.

You can be insecure and still be part of a healthy BDSM relationship as dominant.

 

[IrisAlthea]

I think you’re under the mistaken impression someone is trying to make the case that all masculinity is toxic.

No one is saying that at all.

Men that are confident in their masculinity display it without performative toxicity.

Are you saying that everyone who is competitive about their performance is toxic though?

 

[KatieDoes]

Are you saying that everyone who is competitive about their performance is toxic though?

I have zero recollection of when I’ve said anything that would cause you to believe that is my point of view. Can you point out out what led you to ask that question?

 

[KatieDoes]

No, I'm under the impression that you are trying to paint the existence of superhero man, who embodies all positive traits and on the opposite side the toxic man, who embodies all negative traits.



After all, why else are you so keen to make a connection with "confidence"? "Men should not behave in a toxic way" would be completely sufficient. Yet, it seems to be very important for you to distinguish between confident men and not so confident men.

I mean, the (older) James Bond is so toxic, that he sexually coerces and assaults women. I've never heard anyone saying that James Bond is an archetype for insecurity.

And the problem I have with this is, that you are just fueling the existing toxic stereotypes of what a "real man" has to be or how a "real man" has to act or what a "real dominant" is.

You can be insecure and still be part of a healthy BDSM relationship as dominant.

Evertyone carries some insecurities. Even men that are confident in their own masculinity and don’t need to belittle women to prove themselves men can and will have insecurities about aspects of themselves.


James Bond is a fictional character, created to appeal to insecure men.

 

[Primalex]

James Bond is a fictional character, created to appeal to insecure men.

like Harry Potter.

 

[KatieDoes]

like Harry Potter.

Maybe… I‘m not a huge fan of either series, and don’t know the intricacies of Harry Potter as a character. Isn’t he a child, though?

I wouldn’t be shocked to find out that JK Rowling and Ian Fleming would get on and be friends if the timing had worked out.

 

[IrisAlthea]

A man that is confident in his masculinity has no need to perform for others to prove his masculinity to them or himself.

People are, of course, ‘allowed to’ perform whatever legal behaviors they choose to.

I have zero recollection of when I’ve said anything that would cause you to believe that is my point of view. Can you point out out what led you to ask that question?

The quote above makes me wonder if, not believe - hence the question mark.

Toxic masculinity is performative masculine behaviors, that insecure men do to posture for themselves and others that they are ‘real men’.

in a BDSM context, it can be especially dangerous. A genuinely masculine man as a Dom places the safety and well being of his sub as a priority. A toxic man exploits her willingness to submit to him, which can place her in danger, physically, mentally, and emotionally.

The reason I ask, is because I think that defining behaviour as toxic tends to lead to confusion. You can watch two people express the same behaviour, f ex competing, for entirely different reasons.

To me, the toxicity lies in ideals and roles that people are supposed to fit into.
The idea that men have to be competitive is certainly one example, but so is the idea that a man needs to be tough, don’t care how others percieve him, sure about himself, are others.
To tired to go look, but Meeks posted a great example earlier in this thread.

 

[KatieDoes]

The quote above makes me wonder if, not believe - hence the question mark.




The reason I ask, is because I think that defining behaviour as toxic tends to lead to confusion. You can watch two people express the same behaviour, f ex competing, for entirely different reasons.

To me, the toxicity lies in ideals and roles that people are supposed to fit into.
The idea that men have to be competitive is certainly one example, but so is the idea that a man needs to be tough, don’t care how others percieve him, sure about himself, are others.
To tired to go look, but Meeks posted a great example earlier in this thread.

Again, I said nothing conflating being competitive with toxic masculinity. Frankly, I don’t even view being competitive as a strictly masculine trait.

 

[KimGordon67]

I went back to the beginning of the thread, to try and remember what we were talking about to begin with, and came back to Primalex's question about what masculinity looks like when it's not toxic. It's something I'm still thinking over, partly because I do dislike attributing specific desirable traits to one gender or another, because it seems essentialist. But at the same time, I'm very attracted to masculinity - even when I'm attracted to women, there's usually an air of something masculine about them. I feel like there's a certain 'hardness' that I like, which is a physical thing, but can translate to actions as well, when I think it's probably about confidence and decisiveness. Obviously these are things women exhibit to - we're just often softer, physically and emotionally, and a little more cautious in our decision making (I think).
Where those traits become toxic is where men think that 'hardness' = (non-consensual) control and sometimes violence, that 'confidence' means not considering anyone else's feeling, and when 'decisiveness' occurs without taking responsibility for consequences, especially negative consequences for others. Obviously in a bdsm context, these are not ideal outcomes, especially for a submissive person.
I'm possibly over-generalising here ... and it is struggle to really define attractive masculinity. There's a certain je ne sais quoi about it. It just smells good, and tastes good, and feels good.

 

[EdwardsOtherSide]

I went back to the beginning of the thread, to try and remember what we were talking about to begin with, and came back to Primalex's question about what masculinity looks like when it's not toxic.

Volodymyr Zelenskyy?

 

[EdwardsOtherSide]

I went back to the beginning of the thread, to try and remember what we were talking about to begin with, and came back to Primalex's question about what masculinity looks like when it's not toxic.

Okay; a less flippant reply.
One lady defined healthy masculinity as the "guardian" or "protector" archetype.
A man who gives her a feeling of security.
Implicit in here is strength, both physical and emotional. Emotional maturity and self-control are necessary to balance the strength and ensure that it is used appropriately.
A willingness to go into harm's way for others is part of it. A guy doesn't have to be a soldier though; a firefighter can be an avowed pacifist. Heck, being a school teacher in some areas qualifies.
Healthy masculinity includes the understanding that one has to strive to achieve, but you get to choose your own measures of achievement.
Healthy masculinity includes taking care of yourself. You don't have to be a world class athlete or an obsessive CrossFitter, but having physical and mental activity as part of your routine matters, as does the self-restraint to eat thoughtfully. Personal hygiene; if a guy smells bad, he doesn't get to whine about what he is "owed".

What healthy masculinity is not: Obsessed with appearances (but not unkempt). A bully. A whiner. Abusive. Striving to make displays of masculinity. It doesn't confuse video games and YouTube videos with competence. Entitled.
Let's put that last one in bold, Healthy masculinity is not ENTITLED. The world doesn't owe you anything, living on mommy & daddy's largesse or a trust fund doesn't make you "independent", just because you did everything in the "how to score" book including buying dinner doesn't mean she "owes you sex".

 

[Primalex]

Overall, it seems that masculinity is somehow defined by how it makes the woman feel.

 

[Primalex]

To elaborate my previous post - the examples I have given for femininity "collaborative, vulnerable, empathetic, caring, encouraging, self-sacrificing" don't talk about how a feminine woman should make a man feel. I'm not really trying to say much right now, I'm too exhausted to think much today, but the difference somehow stuck out.

 

[Winter_Fare]

Overall, it seems that masculinity is somehow defined by how it makes the woman feel.

Hey x late to the party but here's my two cents.

I doubt that, Primalex. I mean, my own femininity is projected outward in everything I do or don't do. My appearance is part of it, how I make others feel is part of it, the parts are inseparable. "How it makes women feel" is just a snapshot in time, a symptom or consequence of the man as a whole.

Maverick irresponsible sometimes violent behaviour is the hallmark of toxic masculinity. It makes some women (and men) afraid, but that's just collateral damage.

The real damage is done to the man, or the boy in childhood and adolescence, we're our own worst enemies, humans. Burying all emotions but anger and lust is a sure path to misery.

 

[HotBrand]

Overall, it seems that masculinity is somehow defined by how it makes the woman feel.

It's been nearly half a year. Primalex hasn't accepted a single point that I've seen. The counter-points in the vein of "not all men", "women are just as bad", "I know women who say", and "well, in my experience" are just rebuttal via reductio ad absurdo . It might be time to move on.

That's regrettable but at least there's been some really good things discussed here and I genuinely appreciate reading some of the perspectives and experiences written.

Thank you all for taking the time to express your thoughts. I'm sure other readers have gained a lot from this too

 

[Primalex]

<bla bla>

Who the fuck are you? You haven't made a single post about the topic in this thread.

 

[HotBrand]

Who the fuck are you? You haven't made a single post about the topic in this thread.

Hi! I'm HotBrand!

Stalk me, gorgeous.

You could be my sub if you play those manly cards of yours right!

 

[Primalex]

Hi! I'm HotBrand!

Stalk me, gorgeous.

Okay, give me a second.


Holy shit, now I understand why you can't contribute your own thoughts on complex topics - you have hardly ever left The Playground. And the one time you did, it was a picture thread on the General Board.

 

[HotBrand]

Okay, give me a second.


Holy shit, now I understand why you can't contribute your own thoughts on complex topics - you have hardly ever left The Playground. And the one time you did, it was a picture thread on the General Board.

You got me. Shit.

HotBrand was critically hit. Lose three manly points!

Still ... made you chase me, didn't I? Had to prove your macho with some immediate aggression AND passive-aggression followed by some creeping. That's a COMBO.

What is toxic?

You is toxic.

It's you. You're toxic, milady. Five months of graciousness from the citizens of Lit, and the world of Internet at your fingers, and you're still in total denial that toxic masculinity is a thing - even as you do it. It's almost admirable.

When you're next beating off in a sock, fantasising about me and punching some plasterboard to purge the gay away, just remember: it's not us.

It's you.

 

[Primalex]

Well, I've read two cringey exchanges today. One is this:

https://imgur.com/Y0f05gi

and the other one is this:

https://imgur.com/gcVGFdM

I really can't make up my mind which one is worse.

 

[HotBrand]

Well, I've read two cringey exchanges today. One is this:

https://imgur.com/Y0f05gi

and the other one is this:

https://imgur.com/gcVGFdM

I really can't make up my mind which one is worse.

Vote me, people. Vote HotBrand!

P.S. Totally beat Primalex in a verbal spar. Man, everyone's going to think you're barely a man now.

 

[KatieDoes]

HotBrand with the win, for sure.


Chef’s kiss, and cracked me the fuck up, too.

 

[aussiegeekygal]

You got me. Shit.

HotBrand was critically hit. Lose three manly points!

Still ... made you chase me, didn't I? Had to prove your macho with some immediate aggression AND passive-aggression followed by some creeping. That's a COMBO.

What is toxic?

You is toxic.

It's you. You're toxic, milady. Five months of graciousness from the citizens of Lit, and the world of Internet at your fingers, and you're still in total denial that toxic masculinity is a thing - even as you do it. It's almost admirable.

When you're next beating off in a sock, fantasising about me and punching some plasterboard to purge the gay away, just remember: it's not us.

It's you.

Somehow you made me chase you, too. Lol.

However I ended up here, I'm not at all disappointed. This pretty much flirting in plain sight with all the ladies of lit and I'm in awe. I wish I was this cool