Avoiding Toxic Masculinity in BDSM

[sweettalk4u]

Pics

Well…
If you’re being sincere… I would move your cock to your profile pic and maybe use your hands, the bottom of your smile, etc. as an AV.
Your cock is pretty great, but the Cockatar is pretty jarring. Like. I’m talking to your cock.
*taps it* is this thing on?

It’s rarely the cock itself that bugs a lot of us, it’s the in your face.

If you’re not being sincere, just ignore me.

I’ll sure try!

 

[sweettalk4u]

Well…
If you’re being sincere… I would move your cock to your profile pic and maybe use your hands, the bottom of your smile, etc. as an AV.
Your cock is pretty great, but the Cockatar is pretty jarring. Like. I’m talking to your cock.
*taps it* is this thing on?

It’s rarely the cock itself that bugs a lot of us, it’s the in your face.

If you’re not being sincere, just ignore me.

Got it off at least

 

[wallstreetguy]

I reject the idea of toxic masculinity. If a person is toxic, they use all the tools at their disposal to be so. Male or female.
I hold the door for a woman, but I also hold her ass when we walk (if she is with me, of course).
That is masculinity.
Femininity is amazing too. It can be brass knuckles in a silk glove as. Or it could be just a beautiful hand in a silk glove.
TM is some baloney made-up phrase to separate men from women even further. Don't fall for it.

 

[KimGordon67]

I reject the idea of toxic masculinity. If a person is toxic, they use all the tools at their disposal to be so. Male or female.
I hold the door for a woman, but I also hold her ass when we walk (if she is with me, of course).
That is masculinity.
Femininity is amazing too. It can be brass knuckles in a silk glove as. Or it could be just a beautiful hand in a silk glove.
TM is some baloney made-up phrase to separate men from women even further. Don't fall for it.

... and again, the phrase 'toxic masculinity' =/= 'all masculinity is toxic'.

 

[sweettalk4u]

Glad

... and again, the phrase 'toxic masculinity' =/= 'all masculinity is toxic'.

Glad you dropped by

 

[wallstreetguy]

... and again, the phrase 'toxic masculinity' =/= 'all masculinity is toxic'.

I reject the term. I do not believe in toxic femininity either.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

I reject the term. I do not believe in toxic femininity either.

OK. Would you agree that some forms of toxic behaviour are more likely to be seen in men and other forms more often in women?

 

[KatieDoes]

I reject the idea of toxic masculinity. If a person is toxic, they use all the tools at their disposal to be so. Male or female.
I hold the door for a woman, but I also hold her ass when we walk (if she is with me, of course).
That is masculinity.
Femininity is amazing too. It can be brass knuckles in a silk glove as. Or it could be just a beautiful hand in a silk glove.
TM is some baloney made-up phrase to separate men from women even further. Don't fall for it.

LOL. You don’t get to reject the existence of something just because hearing about it makes you uncomfortable.

 

[KimGordon67]

LOL. You don’t get to reject the existence of something just because hearing about it makes you uncomfortable.

I also don't get the his claim that men and women are being separated 'even further', which seems to assume that they're already being separated. Really? Where is this happening? Because I'm certainly not noticing it in my day-to-day life.

These claims that there's some sort of manufactured war being fomented between men and women seem to most often be made by men who feel like their masculinity is being threatened by ... women? other men? feminism? ... god knows really. Maybe social progress is compromising their position a bit (and really, only a bit), so they feel a little on the outer compared to where they sat before, and like 'women' (whoever that refers to) aren't so interested in them any more, and from there seem to conjecture that this is how everyone is experiencing things.

 

[KatieDoes]

I also don't get the his claim that men and women are being separated 'even further', which seems to assume that they're already being separated. Really? Where is this happening? Because I'm certainly not noticing it in my day-to-day life.

These claims that there's some sort of manufactured war being fomented between men and women seem to most often be made by men who feel like their masculinity is being threatened by ... women? other men? feminism? ... god knows really. Maybe social progress is compromising their position a bit (and really, only a bit), so they feel a little on the outer compared to where they sat before, and like 'women' (whoever that refers to) aren't so interested in them any more, and from there seem to conjecture that this is how everyone is experiencing things.

It said that when all you’ve ever known is privilege, equality can feel like oppression.

Toxic masculinity is the behavior of men that think they are smarter, stronger, more important, and better…. Because they’re men. So when the men that think that begin to hear people say it isn’t accurate, they get upset. They’re used to a world in which they are the center, the default, and their opinions are automatically more valid than others.

 

[wallstreetguy]

OK. Would you agree that some forms of toxic behaviour are more likely to be seen in men and other forms more often in women?

Sure. Men are more.violent. And more awful.

 

[KatieDoes]

Oh, well, you need to choose your religion.

Variant 1:

Do you agree that the differences are primarily cultural? "Women would be more assertive, dominant, competitive, ..., ..., if we would raise them differently."

If you follow this religion, then of course it works vice versa, too, and society can suppress masculine traits in men the very same way as it is done in women currently.

"Don't sit like that, it's not appropriate!" works for knees spread for both men and women. And the endgame is going to be that society could not only in theory do this, but has to do this to get rid of those undesired masculine traits.

Variant 2:

Now...if you don't follow this religion and think that we are primarily a vessel of our hormones with some cultural sugarcoating, it's getting more complicated because then you are starting to invalidate the physical existence of this person. If masculine traits are bad and they are also fundamental to the male body, then my existence is an abomination.

Please tell me, which point of view should I be happy about now?

The reasons for women and men to sit without their knees flailing about are completely different.

Women are socialized to sit with their knees together to keep ourselves physically safe. If we sit with our legs open, and a man glimpses between our legs, he could be driven by our poor posture to rape or harm us.

Men are socialized to take up as much space as they’d like. Manspreading, as it’s known, is not making men vulnerable to harm. It’s them asserting that they are more important than the person sharing the bus/bench/couch with them.



As far as the rest, masculine traits are not bad. All masculinity is not toxic.

 

[wallstreetguy]

LOL. You don’t get to reject the existence of something just because hearing about it makes you uncomfortable.

I can doubt flat earth theory too.
I'm not uncomfortable. I'm responsible for me. All awful male behavior has consequences. If it is criminal, they should pay. I'd they are douchebag, they should expect consequences.

 

[KatieDoes]

I can doubt flat earth theory too.
I'm not uncomfortable. I'm responsible for me. All awful male behavior has consequences. If it is criminal, they should pay. I'd they are douchebag, they should expect consequences.

Toxic masculinity harms men as much as it harms women. It doesn’t have to rise to the level of criminality to be dangerous.

 

[Kittykan23]

I reject the idea of toxic masculinity. If a person is toxic, they use all the tools at their disposal to be so. Male or female.
I hold the door for a woman, but I also hold her ass when we walk (if she is with me, of course).
That is masculinity.
Femininity is amazing too. It can be brass knuckles in a silk glove as. Or it could be just a beautiful hand in a silk glove.
TM is some baloney made-up phrase to separate men from women even further. Don't fall for it.

If you had a son and he wanted to put on make-up or paint his nails would you say no? If you say to yourself, I would never let him put on make-up, you are conforming to rigid gender norms, this is toxic masculinity. It would be the same if you had a daughter and your wife said no, she can’t play with a GI Joe. It’s not condemning men or male attributes. It’s harmful to everyone!

 

[KatieDoes]

It’s really not that hard, and there’s nothing to be defensive and fragile about.



Be Aragorn, not Gaston.

 

[Kittykan23]

It’s really not that hard, and there’s nothing to be defensive and fragile about.



Be Aragorn, not Gaston.

#truestory

 

[Bramblethorn]

Gosh, I wake up and there's a brand new 4-page thread!

IMHO, a big part of toxic masculinity is treating maleness in itself as the goal. There's a world of difference between the guy who wears blue because he likes blue, and the guy who wears blue because he's afraid wearing pink will make him unmanly. Or the guy who gets outraged when some other guy doesn't meet his notions of masculinity.

Stuff like this FaceBoomer meme that somebody posted in another forum recently:

(Missing the point that part of Cary Grant's appeal was that he didn't take himself terribly seriously, and was quite prepared to do non-macho things if the film required it.)

Some people are just arseholes who are comfortable with harming others, and I don't think there's anything intrinsically gendered about that.

But then there are a lot of guys who harm others and/or themselves, not because they particularly want to, but because they've absorbed the idea that this is what masculinity requires. The dad who loves his son and thinks grinding the softness out of him is a fatherly duty, no matter how miserable it makes them both. The guy who's uneasy about his mate's predatory behaviour but keeps quiet because "bros before hos".

Or the trans woman in denial who finds it easier to join the SEALs as a way of living up to that macho ideal than to walk away from it.

Or the trans guys who turn into misogynistic arseholes because they've got the idea that maleness is a package deal that requires that kind of behaviour, and that the easiest way to be accepted as "male enough" is to distance themselves from anything female-associated.

(Yes, hormones do make some difference; a lot of transmasc people going on testosterone experience increased libido and finding it harder to cry. But they don't force anybody to be an asshole.)

Attempting to tie this back in to the "in BDSM" part of the thread: does anybody remember the dude who showed up here a while back, who said he was interested in being dominated by a woman but not by another guy, because the Man Code meant he had to fight to the death sooner than bend the knee to another man? Sort of a "domination by a woman would be okay because it's Just Pretend, but domination by a man would be too real" thing.

I'm not sure how much of what he posted was real, but taking that at face value, I'd suggest that one's a pretty good example of toxic masculinity in BDSM.

 

[MeekMe]

I see examples of toxic masculinity in daily life and our culture is growing less and less accepting of this behavior. But I see the same things promoted and often aspired to in the BDSM community.

What are some ways we can grow and mature and embrace our men in BDSM without the toxic traits?

Some examples:

• the need to be/or be perceived as tough always

• heterosexism or the inability to share space non-sexually with queer people

• emotional insensitivity

• the need to dominate women (in a non sexual way)

• stoicism/arrogance

Just curious if this is on anyone else's radar?

This wasn’t really on my radar for BDSM specifically, but I have in the past called out toxic masculinity in general conversations. Things like calling out a group of women I used to work with for trying to trash a man for being a stay at home dad. They awkwardly backtracked when I asked if they’d say the same of a woman. So I suppose, simply calling it out when we see it and asking questions that make people rethink their position is a start.

Toxic masculinity hurts boys and men in so many ways. Promoting risky behavior and discouraging asking for help comes to mind. Self care being looked down upon as feminine or unmanly. The almost automatic assumption that feminine = inferior.

Sadly, I think BDSM appeals to people who hold toxic beliefs because on the surface it looks like what they think is ideal. And women can very much hold toxic beliefs that play into this as well.

Men don’t cry. Man up. Be a man. Things said to discourage boys and men from showing emotions, getting medical and mental health care, and generally taking care of themselves. It’s seriously fucked up that there are men in the world that won’t clean their own asshole because they fear it’s “gay.” Like, how did being manly get warped into THAT?

It seems the way forward is having the conversations and providing supportive environments for boys and men to learn to express themselves in more positive and constructive ways. Men have to actively participate in creating these safe spaces as well.

 

[KimGordon67]

Gosh, I wake up and there's a brand new 4-page thread!

IMHO, a big part of toxic masculinity is treating maleness in itself as the goal. There's a world of difference between the guy who wears blue because he likes blue, and the guy who wears blue because he's afraid wearing pink will make him unmanly. Or the guy who gets outraged when some other guy doesn't meet his notions of masculinity.

Stuff like this FaceBoomer meme that somebody posted in another forum recently:

(Missing the point that part of Cary Grant's appeal was that he didn't take himself terribly seriously, and was quite prepared to do non-macho things if the film required it.)

Some people are just arseholes who are comfortable with harming others, and I don't think there's anything intrinsically gendered about that.

But then there are a lot of guys who harm others and/or themselves, not because they particularly want to, but because they've absorbed the idea that this is what masculinity requires. The dad who loves his son and thinks grinding the softness out of him is a fatherly duty, no matter how miserable it makes them both. The guy who's uneasy about his mate's predatory behaviour but keeps quiet because "bros before hos".

Or the trans woman in denial who finds it easier to join the SEALs as a way of living up to that macho ideal than to walk away from it.

Or the trans guys who turn into misogynistic arseholes because they've got the idea that maleness is a package deal that requires that kind of behaviour, and that the easiest way to be accepted as "male enough" is to distance themselves from anything female-associated.

(Yes, hormones do make some difference; a lot of transmasc people going on testosterone experience increased libido and finding it harder to cry. But they don't force anybody to be an asshole.)

Attempting to tie this back in to the "in BDSM" part of the thread: does anybody remember the dude who showed up here a while back, who said he was interested in being dominated by a woman but not by another guy, because the Man Code meant he had to fight to the death sooner than bend the knee to another man? Sort of a "domination by a woman would be okay because it's Just Pretend, but domination by a man would be too real" thing.

I'm not sure how much of what he posted was real, but taking that at face value, I'd suggest that one's a pretty good example of toxic masculinity in BDSM.

I miss that guy ... he was hugely entertaining (although also, and in equal part, quite irritating). Definitely a great example of toxic masculinity though, to the point that I was actually quite concerned for his wife.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Toxic masculinity harms men as much as it harms women. It doesn’t have to rise to the level of criminality to be dangerous.

Thinking of the posts I've seen about guys who refused to wash their arses because touching their own butt was too gay. In the short term, obnoxious for their soon-to-be-ex-girlfriends, but in the long term I can't imagine those guys are likely to enjoy the consequences. [edit: I see MeekMe posted the same example while I was writing this!]

Or the guy who was upset that he might be gay because a male hairdresser washed his hair and he liked how it felt. Not in a sexy way, just "that feels nice". It must be exhausting for these guys having to run every life choice through a filter of "will I lose my Man Card if I do this?"

 

[midwestyankee]

It must be exhausting for these guys having to run every life choice through a filter of "will I lose my Man Card if I do this?"

This, exactly. In fact, this is why, when I had the chance during the early rounds of COVID vaccinations that I opted out of the Bill Gates tracker version and instead got the Permanent Man Card Chip Implant version. I’ll never lose that little rascal now.

 

[Primalex]

Men are socialized to take up as much space as they’d like.

No, they are not.

It’s them asserting that

a) you should sit comfortably if there is no reason to not do it.
b) there is a private protected space around them as long as possible, equal to the woman who puts her bag on the seat next to her instead of the floor.

 

[Primalex]

It’s really not that hard, and there’s nothing to be defensive and fragile about.

Be Aragorn, not Gaston.

Of course, it's Aragorn, not Samwise or, lo and behold, Pippin.

Aragorn is a man! Be the hero, be the king! If you are a man, this has to be your goal!


Welcome to toxic masculinity 101.

 

[Acktion]

The reasons for women and men to sit without their knees flailing about are completely different.

Women are socialized to sit with their knees together to keep ourselves physically safe. If we sit with our legs open, and a man glimpses between our legs, he could be driven by our poor posture to rape or harm us.

Men are socialized to take up as much space as they’d like. Manspreading, as it’s known, is not making men vulnerable to harm. It’s them asserting that they are more important than the person sharing the bus/bench/couch with them.



As far as the rest, masculine traits are not bad. All masculinity is not toxic.

Wow. Just wow. The irony of you, of all people, making this comment here after your performance over here throughout the thread...

Allow me to mansplain for the one and only time in my life.

Just as you have big tits and cleavage that you so ably defended there, I have big balls. You know that feeling at your last mammogram when they squished your tit between those plates? Now imagine that every time you sit down.

I have put on some weight, so my thirty-inch waist of yesteryear is gone. But, my thighs are still twenty-eight inches. Of hard muscle, which is not as forgiving as fat. Between those twenty-eight-inch thighs hangs a scrotum the approximate size of a pool ball with around the same number of nerve endings as a nipple.

Pressing my knees together will, perforce, press those thighs together. With the scrotum and contained testes between them. Ergo, the analogy of the mammogram.

In a nutshell, to paraphrase a rather bright young lady defending her breasts and exposed cleavage, "you need to accept that my ball space has not a damn thing to do with you." Or anyone else. It's not about taking up space but having to work around space that is already taken up. And I will thank you not to assume you know what I'm thinking having balls about as much as you would thank those men for not assuming they know what you are thinking possessing tits.

And, yes, this does actually fall under the heading "Toxic Femininity" and/or "Femi-Nazi." And the fact that you didn't see that, bright as you are, without having it mansplained, when I didn't need a tit-bearer to womansplain that her exposed cleavage has not a damn thing to do with me just absolutely baffles me.