Chat about cheating . . .

I think a hundred years from now, having sex outside of a primary relationship won't necessarily be viewed as "Cheating." Indeed, it will be viewed as just a normal, healthy thing people do to maintain better physical and mental health. And one that actually helps to keep the primary relationship healthy and strong. In other words, it will be normative behavior and not exceptional.

Why not sooner? Because "fidelity" needs to be redefined and that will take generations to achieve. "No sex with others - ever!" needs to evolve into "Sex with someone else is fine, if..." and what follows will be sensible rules that minimize the risk it poses to the primary relationship. For example, having a one-night stand with someone you'll never see again will no longer be considered cheating. But forming attachments and conspiring to grow a relationship with someone other than your spouse will continue to be considered cheating.

If you think I'm crazy, think again... Think of how homosexuality, bi-sexuality, transgenderism were perceived 100 years ago. Thankfully, we've evolved and come to realize that these are normal, healthy people who are living their lives as authentically and happily as they can. I think the same will happen with non-monogamy.

I think that these dynamic will definitely evolve, although precisely how is anybody's guess. I personally prefer to have a relationship with my lovers - I find it leads to a more consistently enjoyable sexual experience than one-nighters - but that comes with an obligation to ensure that there are limitations to those connections. To oversimplify they are a bit like my platonic friends in that we do have a unique connection that is other than and outside of what I have with my husband, but I would never allow them to intrude on the relationship I have with my husband. That involves a myriad of ways I manage those interactions, but most importantly an honest view of my own feelings and that of my lovers' and my husband.

One of the things that I find about the evolution of sexual relations is how that has gone in the past 100 years or so. If we go back 100 years men were generally "allowed" to have sexual relations outside of marriage. I put that in quotes because it wasn't explicitly permitted per se (by law, the church or society), but it was tacitly accepted for men only. Once women started to get more rights and it became clear that we were increasingly unwilling to accept the traditional double standard, rather than extending the same flexibility to women, society (driven by men) decided to withdraw it from men (at least in terms of how it is judged).

Now as society has continued to liberalize and women's roles have continued to evolve, we are increasingly of the view that we don't need society's permission to be non-monogamous in our relationships or not enter into relationships at all. Along with that has come a cohort of men who seek to stand on moral/ethical grounds to adopt "burn the bitch" style rhetoric. What is interesting to me is that I feel as though many of those men are the ones who, if they lived 100 years ago, would readily step outside their marriage without nearly the moral/ethical constraints that they now seek to impose upon women. Their strident stance on the morality or ethics of these matters is really just cover for their own insecurities and even an unconscious recognition that absent the double standard their position in gender relations is greatly weakened.

So, why did women back in the day accept a cheating husband? Are we that much less jealous or was it simply because we had no choice? it was dominantly the latter in my view. Society was unkind to and unsupportive of single women, especially those with children. For a cheated on wife the alternative to sucking it up and accepting that reality was something approaching destitution (the whole premise that women want monogamy because we want a man to provide for us has always been rooted in the fact that society denied us any other practical means of providing for ourselves).

Those days are gone. But we are still in the early stages of a new view on relationships, especially among women. Historically, the compelled pairing of men and women was substantially driven by what men wanted (one can't say it was all because women wanted a man to provide for us while ignoring the fact that men conspired to deny us the means to provide for ourselves). For some men it was/is their best chance of having a mate at all.

As of now men are still clinging to and trying to enforce a traditional model. But they are slowly losing the ability to impose the double standard because women can refuse to engage on that basis. Guys are still trying to use shaming as their primary tool to compel compliance, but it is becoming less effective all the time. And women are increasingly opting to be on our own rather than put up with a misogynist partner. Those men that could count on the compelled pairing to hopefully one day find a partner are increasingly finding themselves single. It may take a generation or more, but eventually both genders (but especially men I think) will move beyond compelled pairing (and other behaviours). In that environment both genders (but again especially men I think) will alter their expectations because they have no choice - different than it was for women 100 years ago, but potentially with a similar result.

More women using our increased sexual latitude to shut out men who exhibit misogynist behaviour will alter that behaviour. Many of us will still opt for monogamy. But many will opt otherwise and while men won't be obliged to go along with it many will see it as workable, both because they lack alternative and because they have learned to respect our sexual prerogative in a way that they don't today. Women 100 years ago were compelled to accept their husband's sexual activity with other women. They may not have liked it, but they were able to see it with a more open mind than men of that time did or our current time do. Much of that is because they had no choice. Men will be steered in this direction, not because we compel them under duress, but because we do so by withdrawing from a traditional model that no longer suits us.
 
How do you know my wife didn't cheat? And my giving her permission to be with other men going forward wasn't my way of owning it rather than being a victim? Your comment toward @Ed_Sumner seems cruel.

The prospect of cheating does add a dimension to how these things come about. But I think that it is a transgression that is often artificially given universal importance.

Full disclosure: my cheating was the catalyst to a change in our lifestyle. It was a meaningless episode wherein I gave in to temptation, confessed immediately and owned it fully. Meaningless doesn't mean harmless. I just mean it didn't come out of some deeper dissatisfaction with my husband or attachment to another man. It was me being selfish.

What I mean by the transgression being given universal importance is that for some people it is the ultimate sin, can never be forgiven and/or is, at a minimum, evidence of an irredeemable character flaw (i.e. the cheater will always cheat again). But the reality is that none of us is perfect and all commit transgressions. And many who have committed relatively grievous transgressions have managed to truly redeem and reform themselves. Meanwhile, it is unreasonably onerous to see every transgression in an absolute way without any consideration of context.

So why is cheating the ultimate unforgivable transgression while others are forgivable or even acceptable. The fact is that it is not. Maybe for some people it is. But that is a personal perspective, not some kind of universal reality.

For example, fiduciary responsibility is a very high priority to me. You know those car commercials where some guy gets his wife a car and parks it in the driveway with a bow around it? Even if was not in an FLR I would absolutely lose my shit if my husband made that kind of financial decision without consulting with me. That would be a huge transgression. And if he was in the habit of doing that kind of thing or gambling unacceptable amounts of money that would be grounds for divorce even more so than sexual infidelity in a moment of weakness. But there are lots of people who would frame that in terms of generosity rather than financial irresponsibility and disrespect towards me as a partner entitled to be part of major financial decisions.

How those people feel about that doesn't change how I would feel about it. Neither of us is right. It is our own perspective.

I would certainly see my husband cheating as a transgression. But depending on the circumstances I wouldn't automatically see it as the worst thing ever or something we couldn't get past. And I do think that insecurity and a jealous nature will affect how serious of a transgression it is seen as. Likewise the way men have been taught to see female sexuality (including the double standard) plays into it.
 
I think that many, if not most, people's true persona is radically different from the ways in which we are perceived by others, our sexual personae in particular, but we are expected to adhere to a narrow identity, designated as being "normal" and we bring to our respective relationships, urges and cravings our partners are unable or unwilling to satisfy and consequently, we often seek out others with whom to fulfill these secret needs and carry out our forbidden desires. My friends and family would be shocked to meet the outrageous person I truly am!
 
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I think it is fantastic how this has worked out for you and your wife. It affirms that the most sexual organ that we have is our 'brain.' If we think sexy thoughts, it makes all the difference in the world.

As for your "one way" permission slip, I had to chuckle to myself. On the eve of my wife re-connecting with her ex high school boyfriend, she offered me the opportunity to find a 'fuck buddy,' for myself. I'm sure she was feeling some guilt over her upcoming sex date with her old B/F, so I flatly rejected her kind offer. Good thing, moments after she offered, she withdrew the permission for me to fuck another woman. Her only explanation was that she just couldn't stand to think of me being with another woman. The "double standard" is alive and well.
Same. My wife knows she can play with another guy if she wants too. The same doesn't go for me regarding women, she made that clear. As far as me with another guy I got a "don't ask, don't tell".
She's not interested in women at all, unfortunately.
 
Just putting this out there:

I’ve ignored that clown and I’ll ignore anyone who continues to feed it.
 
As of now men are still clinging to and trying to enforce a traditional model. But they are slowly losing the ability to impose the double standard because women can refuse to engage on that basis. Guys are still trying to use shaming as their primary tool to compel compliance, but it is becoming less effective all the time. And women are increasingly opting to be on our own rather than put up with a misogynist partner. Those men that could count on the compelled pairing to hopefully one day find a partner are increasingly finding themselves single. It may take a generation or more, but eventually both genders (but especially men I think) will move beyond compelled pairing (and other behaviours). In that environment both genders (but again especially men I think) will alter their expectations because they have no choice - different than it was for women 100 years ago, but potentially with a similar result.
Beautifully said...
 
So why is cheating the ultimate unforgivable transgression while others are forgivable or even acceptable. The fact is that it is not. Maybe for some people it is. But that is a personal perspective, not some kind of universal reality.
Agreed..

Seeing cheating as the ultimate marital offense is ridiculous. As I've shared before, my father NEVER cheated on my Mom, nor did he EVER hit her. But he made her feel unloved, unintelligent, and emotionally irrelevant to him. If he ever made her feel needed at all, it was only to raise 'his' kids, and keep 'his' house. While it is true that he was faithful, he was also an unloving and often cruel man. THAT was much worse than if he was a kind and loving husband who, on a handful of occassions, gave into temptation and slept with other women while traveling on business. My Mom sure as hell would have preferred that too.

As teens if we found out that my Mom had a lover on the side we would have totally understood it and would have seen it as a coping mechanism. Sadly, she never did. My mom was a financial captive in a shitty marriage. No way I'd ever let my daughters, or nieces follow such a path. I encourage them to earn as much (or more) than men and to be prepared to say "fuck you, I'm gone" if treated poorly by their husbands.
 
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I think it is fantastic how this has worked out for you and your wife. It affirms that the most sexual organ that we have is our 'brain.' If we think sexy thoughts, it makes all the difference in the world.
I place NO value on being able to claim from my deathbed that during our marriage, my wife never had sex with anyone but me. Big whoop.

Instead, I prefer being able to claim that my wife continued to enjoy physical intimacy with me, right up to the very end. And if that meant having to allow her to have occasional physical intimacy with others as well, I'll be quite at peace with it.

I know guys in their 60's who pontificate about the perfect fidelity of their 40 year marriage. Meanwhile, if they're still having sex at all, it's just a few times per year - ie., birthdays and anniversaries. Ugh.. No thanks!

I can't quite place my finger on why, but I think women may grow tired of sex sooner than men if confined to having it with just one person. So I’ve lifted that constraint and continue to enjoy tons of sex with my wife and expect to do so for years to come.
 
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