Climate continues to change.

[phrodeau]

Where do you suppose those fossil fuels came from? The cavemen went and buried all the Dino's and trees or something?

Or possibly, millions of years before we happened along, the climate changed... Or maybe it was dino-fart.

Anyway, yes, as you point out so eloquently, climate changes, even without our input.

We should maybe cork all the volcanoes, while we're at it, so they stop adding their sequestered carbon to the atmosphere!

Will, I'm hoping into my dinosaur burning personal conveyance to go home to sip a nice Old Fashioned on the deck. (Made from Trex!) (The deck, not the drink)

Fossil fuels have been buried for hundreds of millions of years. You seem to acknowledge that.

And in a few decades, humans have managed to pull up and burn so much of those that we are in real danger of running out, of burning all the fossil fuel ever produced over those millions of years.

And yes, it's as if the earth's population of life suddenly multiplied a millionfold and every creature started farting all within the space of a hundred years.

All the volcanoes erupting in a year will only produce the same amount of CO2 that humans cause in four days. And all the volcanoes in the past 800,000 years haven't managed to increase the atmospheric CO2 over 300ppm. Humans have done that in only a century.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

Fossil fuels have been buried for hundreds of millions of years. You seem to acknowledge that.

And in a few decades, humans have managed to pull up and burn so much of those that we are in real danger of running out, of burning all the fossil fuel ever produced over those millions of years.

And yes, it's as if the earth's population of life suddenly multiplied a millionfold and every creature started farting all within the space of a hundred years.

All the volcanoes erupting in a year will only produce the same amount of CO2 that humans cause in four days. And all the volcanoes in the past 800,000 years haven't managed to increase the atmospheric CO2 over 300ppm. Humans have done that in only a century.

"Dinosaur Breath"

 

[Hypoxia]

Denial of human-induced climate-change was cooked-up in the same corporate think tanks that denied cigarettes linkage to cancer. That's documented. Believers are suckers for propaganda. Sad. And dangerous.

I'm reminded of the Reptilioid-Republican plan to make Earth suitable for the ET alien monsters by 1) making the place comfortable via global warming and 2) fattening up human livestock on McFood, hence epidemics of obesity. Y'all are lunch. Pass the salsa.

 

[gunthernehmen]

I don't care what extent the change is due to humans. Trust me, the Earth will make a correction if needed and will be just fine long after we're done.

Meanwhile, I'm content that I'm doing less damage to the world than the self righteous aholes like Gore.

I have no intention of giving up the creature comforts that I do have and obviously neither do any of you. So deal with the consequences if or when they come.

Until you're all living in mud huts and chatting on lit using smoke signals or something you have no standing to take the moral high ground.

 

[phrodeau]

I don't care what extent the change is due to humans. Trust me, the Earth will make a correction if needed and will be just fine long after we're done.

Meanwhile, I'm content that I'm doing less damage to the world than the self righteous aholes like Gore.

I have no intention of giving up the creature comforts that I do have and obviously neither do any of you. So deal with the consequences if or when they come.

Until you're all living in mud huts and chatting on lit using smoke signals or something you have no standing to take the moral high ground.

Yes, the earth cares not if we foul our nest so badly that it kills us off. I kinda do, though.

 

[Que]

Exactly. Move to the head of the class.

The global warming we are now facing is a direct result of digging up fuels and burning them, increasing CO2 levels in the air. Biofuels don't do that; firewood doesn't do that. It's the fossil fuels.

A therm of energy created from firewood is going to release roughly the same amount of your evil CO2 that a therm of energy created from burning coal would.

Either CO2 is an issue or it is not.

Not to mention the amount of ancient hydrocarbons that are released in the process of making, planting, or harvesting as well as transporting and utilizing biofuels.

In order to burn a gallon of gasahol, you have most likely released a lot more CO2 than you would if you would simply burned gasoline, depending on where it is created and where it is utilized.

Your entire religion is based on magical thinking.

 

[Stain_mAnn]

Yeah, you have " most likely..." "depending on ..."

*chuckles*

 

[phrodeau]

A therm of energy created from firewood is going to release roughly the same amount of your evil CO2 that a therm of energy created from burning coal would.

Either CO2 is an issue or it is not.

Not to mention the amount of ancient hydrocarbons that are released in the process of making, planting, or harvesting as well as transporting and utilizing biofuels.

In order to burn a gallon of gasahol, you have most likely released a lot more CO2 than you would if you would simply burned gasoline, depending on where it is created and where it is utilized.

Your entire religion is based on magical thinking.

You haven’t learned about the carbon cycle yet? Well, simply put, the firewood comes from a tree that took CO2 out of the air and into its many parts, from roots to leaves. The parts used for firewood will only release part of the CO2 that the tree absorbed over its lifespan.

I’ll let you look up the details. Please return to this thread once you’re knowledgeable on the topic.

 

[Que]

You haven’t learned about the carbon cycle yet? Well, simply put, the firewood comes from a tree that took CO2 out of the air and into its many parts, from roots to leaves. The parts used for firewood will only release part of the CO2 that the tree absorbed over its lifespan.

I’ll let you look up the details. Please return to this thread once you’re knowledgeable on the topic.

You didn't read a thing I wrote.

Is this firewood magically transported to where it is burned using firewood power? Do you have any idea how many hectares of firewood would be required to meet some pretty minor energy output that we get from pumping oil?

It's not even the least bit sustainable because of logistics.

Not to mention the fact that burning that is far more harmful to human habitation than burning natural gas. By a wide margin.

Carbon sequestration in trees doesn't care whether the carbon dioxide molecule came from hydrogen carbons trapped in Shale oil or if it came from burning a tree the amount of sequestration that occurs is exactly the same regardless of which source you chose to burn.

 

[Que]

Yeah, you have " most likely..." "depending on ..."

*chuckles*

Yeah, Rob, it depends on whether you make the alcohol in grandpappys still and hand carry it to the pick-up truck. Or whether you have to transport the corn to a refinery and the alcohol to where people actually live.

 

[Que]

In Phrodeaus fantasy religion, none of these hard facts exist:

http://news.cornell.edu/stories/2001/08/ethanol-corn-faulted-energy-waster-scientist-says

It is barely sustainable if you only count the fossil fuels that go into producing the corn.

Then it takes more energy to turn that corn into ethanol then you get out of the ethanol. In other words it would take more than a gallon of ethanol to make a gallon of ethanol. That's after you already have the corn.

Never mind the huge amounts of basic human needs freshwater that are expended in growing the corn and making the alcohol.

The only reason it's done at all is to get votes from the farm Belt states for big defense department appropriation bills. No other reason.

 

[phrodeau]

In Phrodeaus fantasy religion, none of these hard facts exist:

http://news.cornell.edu/stories/2001/08/ethanol-corn-faulted-energy-waster-scientist-says

It is barely sustainable if you only count the fossil fuels that go into producing the corn.

Then it takes more energy to turn that corn into ethanol then you get out of the ethanol. In other words it would take more than a gallon of ethanol to make a gallon of ethanol. That's after you already have the corn.

Never mind the huge amounts of basic human needs freshwater that are expended in growing the corn and making the alcohol.

The only reason it's done at all is to get votes from the farm Belt states for big defense department appropriation bills. No other reason.

Is that what you want to argue, that biofuels aren't sustainable because it takes fossil fuels to produce and transport them? Surprise, it takes fuel to produce and transport fossil fuels, too.

When biofuels are used for biofuel production and transportation, voila, sustainability.

 

[gunthernehmen]

Yes, the earth cares not if we foul our nest so badly that it kills us off. I kinda do, though.

Then why are you living in a house and not a sustainable came?

Will you be the one the murders about 6 billion people? Because that's what it will take.

I have enough shit on my conscience. I don't need that too.

I'll take my chances that the world outlasts me. My chances are good.

Is that what you want to argue, that biofuels aren't sustainable because it takes fossil fuels to produce and transport them? Surprise, it takes fuel to produce and transport fossil fuels, too.

When biofuels are used for biofuel production and transportation, voila, sustainability.

I suppose you drive one of those environmental disasters work gigantic batteries made with toxic chemicals and rare earths and runs on electricity generated from dead dinosaurs?

Again, when are you moving into a hut? Why do WE have be the ones giving everything up so YOU can jet to a world simposium on climate change?

 

[Que]

Is that what you want to argue, that biofuels aren't sustainable because it takes fossil fuels to produce and transport them? Surprise, it takes fuel to produce and transport fossil fuels, too.

When biofuels are used for biofuel production and transportation, voila, sustainability.

Except biofuels are not used for biofuel production it can't be done ; it is not done .

Biofuels in general are only only done now because of government subsidies.

If something cannot continue indefinitely it will not continue indefinitely that's a rule of Economics that is immutable. This cannot continue indefinitely because you can't subsidize something like that indefinitely which means it's not sustainable. You have no idea what sustainable actually means.

Each batch of biofuel would be completely consumed making the next batch of biofuel

 

[Que]

And we haven't even discussed the fact that you cannot ship alcohol by Pipeline and you have to use even more dinosaur fuel to get that already completely neither environmentally nor economically sustainable product to Market.

 

[gunthernehmen]

And we haven't even discussed the fact that you cannot ship alcohol by Pipeline and you have to use even more dinosaur fuel to get that already completely neither environmentally nor economically sustainable product to Market.

THAT'S a pipeline I wouldn't mind near my mud hut, so long as I could run a tap to it!

 

[phrodeau]

I’d ask how you figure that, but I know you can’t.

 

[bhurry]

I’d ask how you figure that, but I know you can’t.

Cow farts and pig shit. = ?

 

[Que]

I’d ask how you figure that, but I know you can’t.

Since it takes more energy to create a gallon of ethanol than is contained in a gallon of ethanol how is your "sustainable" perpetual motion machine of fueling your utopia from corn going to be sustained?

 

[gunthernehmen]

Since it takes more energy to create a gallon of ethanol than is contained in a gallon of ethanol how is your "sustainable" perpetual motion machine of fueling your utopia from corn going to be sustained?

But don't you realize that farm subsidies and regulatory matters take care of those extra costs!!!

Well that and the fact that corn based foods are much more expensive now that E gas is so prevalent. Not to mention the cost of replacing the carbs on lawn mowers and chainsaws every year, ruined by this environmentally "friendly" crap they required by law to sell these days.

Phro, biofuels are not even remotely sustainable in the volume that is required by today's population and technology.

Which brings us back to: Are YOU willing to murder 6 billion people? And by the way, who get's to choose WHICH 6 billion die? I have to assume you wouldn't be volunteering to be one of them. But hey, SOMEBODY has to run things after the riff raff are out of the way.

 

[Que]

But don't you realize that farm subsidies and regulatory matters take care of those extra costs!!!

Well that and the fact that corn based foods are much more expensive now that E gas is so prevalent. Not to mention the cost of replacing the carbs on lawn mowers and chainsaws every year, ruined by this environmentally "friendly" crap they required by law to sell these days.

Phro, biofuels are not even remotely sustainable in the volume that is required by today's population and technology.

Which brings us back to: Are YOU willing to murder 6 billion people? And by the way, who get's to choose WHICH 6 billion die? I have to assume you wouldn't be volunteering to be one of them. But hey, SOMEBODY has to run things after the riff raff are out of the way.

All true but it is not just the costs that is the problem. Corn ethanol takes energy out of the equation, it does not add to it.

It robs Peter to pay Paul and it enriches corn farmers and accomplishes nothing else.

 

[phrodeau]

Since it takes more energy to create a gallon of ethanol than is contained in a gallon of ethanol how is your "sustainable" perpetual motion machine of fueling your utopia from corn going to be sustained?

Because you are full of shit.

The only way that can be true is if serious fudge is made with the numbers. Producing ethanol from corn also produces animal feed. You're adding the energy put into feed production and transportation to make your claim. Here is the guy quoted in your link above, admitting to it.

http://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/1/2/41/htm

Manufacture of a liter of 99.5% ethanol uses 46% more fossil energy than it produces and costs $1.05 per liter ($3.97 per gallon). The corn feedstock alone requires more than 33% of the total energy input.

The largest energy inputs in corn-ethanol production are for producing the corn feedstock plus the steam energy and electricity used in the fermentation/distillation process.

Nowhere does he take the value of that feedstock or the energy it contains into account.

 

[von_Bismarck]

Since it takes more energy to create a gallon of ethanol than is contained in a gallon of ethanol how is your "sustainable" perpetual motion machine of fueling your utopia from corn going to be sustained?

^ This is what it looks like when someone throws up a word salad of scare terms.

 

[Hypoxia]

Then why are you living in a house and not a sustainable came?

Will you be the one the murders about 6 billion people? Because that's what it will take.

Was this gibberish supposed to mean something? What's a "sustainable came"? Who are "the one, the murders"? What you imbibing, kemosabe? Stay away from the amyl nitrate -- it's bad for you.

Human industrial activity has released gigatons of greenhouse gases that measurably raised global atmospheric temperatures. More energy in the hydrosphere drives shifting climate and more intense weather. The biggest storms in recorded history and greatest temperature extremes were last year.

If you want to go extinct yourself, don't let us stop you, but don't take us with you.

 

[gunthernehmen]

Was this gibberish supposed to mean something? What's a "sustainable came"? Who are "the one, the murders"? What you imbibing, kemosabe? Stay away from the amyl nitrate -- it's bad for you.

Human industrial activity has released gigatons of greenhouse gases that measurably raised global atmospheric temperatures. More energy in the hydrosphere drives shifting climate and more intense weather. The biggest storms in recorded history and greatest temperature extremes were last year.

If you want to go extinct yourself, don't let us stop you, but don't take us with you.

Blame the autocorrect on my phone. sustainable one. Will you be the one that murders 6 billion people?

Why do you live in a stick built house with central heat (and probably A/C as well)? Why do you drive a car built from materials raped from the ground and powered (regardless of the prime mover in the vehicle) by dead dinosaurs? Why do you use a computer, made from those same dinosaurs and powered with yet MORE electricity generated from them. The signals themselves are traveling on fiber buried using yet more heavy machinery or perhaps over satellites lofted by rockets that emit gigatons of pollutants.

You are an incredible hypocrite.

Why do you not live in a mud hut, farming potatoes and raising chickens? If you're going to talk the talk, walk it too.