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doctor_insanus said:
The saddest part of this whole situation is that the deniers in Congress are probably even dumber than the deniers in this thread.
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No the saddest part is that true believers who know even less about scale and consequences than the religionists on this thread are making and enforcing rules that will give every other place in the world an incredible advantage in manufacturing, driving every last manufacturing job requiring energy away, in return for a nearly negligible difference in CO2, worldwide..

Cue.."we have to start somewhere...we should fall on our sword leading..."
 
query said:
No the saddest part is that true believers who know even less about scale and consequences than the religionists on this thread are making and enforcing rules that will give every other place in the world an incredible advantage in manufacturing, driving every last manufacturing job requiring energy away, in return for a nearly negligible difference in CO2, worldwide..

Cue.."we have to start somewhere...we should fall on our sword leading..."
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That would be true. . .if we were leading the charge in environmental rules but we're not. You do realize that right that we suck and suck badly in that area?
 
Sean Renaud said:
That would be true. . .if we were leading the charge in environmental rules but we're not. You do realize that right that we suck and suck badly in that area?
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We suck in our not having as good of lip service as other places...we suck in that other places for various reasons are able to have lower carbon foot-print and the like...and yes I know there's a whole movement that I am not opposed to to rethink things like how spread out we are and on and on...grant you all that...America especially with our love of cars are energy hogs.

What i am saying is let the whackos have cart blanch... basically make us park our cars ride the tram, move to the city...you know all the actually good things...

and it STILL wouldn't make a meaningful difference as a lot of activities are shifted elsewhere.
 
query said:
We suck in our not having as good of lip service as other places...we suck in that other places for various reasons are able to have lower carbon foot-print and the like...and yes I know there's a whole movement that I am not opposed to to rethink things like how spread out we are and on and on...grant you all that...America especially with our love of cars are energy hogs.

What i am saying is let the whackos have cart blanch... basically make us park our cars ride the tram, move to the city...you know all the actually good things...

and it STILL wouldn't make a meaningful difference as a lot of activities are shifted elsewhere.
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Because other places largely don't pay lip service, they fuckin do something. How spread out we are is an issue and it's going to bite us in the ass but there isn't shit we can do about that other than cry about it at this point.

Of course it will make a difference, for starters less jobs will move than your making it sound like and we have a goddamn government for a goddamn reason. Tax the shit out of them, ban their products. Whatever it fucking takes. You live up to 'x' standard or you don't do business in the USA. We lack the spine to do these things, not the power.
 
Sean Renaud said:
Because other places largely don't pay lip service, they fuckin do something. How spread out we are is an issue and it's going to bite us in the ass but there isn't shit we can do about that other than cry about it at this point.

Of course it will make a difference, for starters less jobs will move than your making it sound like and we have a goddamn government for a goddamn reason. Tax the shit out of them, ban their products. Whatever it fucking takes. You live up to 'x' standard or you don't do business in the USA. We lack the spine to do these things, not the power.
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I admire the purity of your heart and I think you and a lot of sincere people on that side of things are willing to go all Ed Beghley on their lifestyle. I would but only because things like those 4 in one Japanese efficiency rooms gets my engineer gears turning...

Also I am a packrat, but I find that I LOVE the simplicity of living out a couple of bags.

All of the things you mention, political cajones lacking aside... would do catastrophic harm to us. We cannot afford to not participate in the world market. We are becoming less and less relevant per capita every year as it is.

Throw up some solar...work on tidal energy (lotta corosian there) quit being pansies about nuke and call it good. I do NOT advocate leaving the world worse for our kids but all things considered the planet is BETTER than when I was born a 1/2 century ago.

We have better understanding of long term consequences of industrial polution. It killed my father eventually, and he was in food processing (and can making) of all things, non toxic indeed.

We have much cleaner air and can and should do better. We can reduce urban sprawl through making it easy, cheap and trendy to rehab/convert spaces/ get multi use zoning..etc.

My dream? Own 1900's brick space somewhere interesting...live above, workshop below with sparks flying and people walking by not only not annoyed I'm building shit in my home, but fascinated...I might even put in some darkened windows so they can watch welding from the street if they want.

You know how much hassle I would get doing shit like that? I mean why does it have to be "these people here" and "those people there'

Friggin lawyers, zoning, etc.

How about this: red neck high-rise...

Take over a parking structure...turn bottom few floors into big grages with lighting, 400 amp panels and fire suppresion systems...let hot-rodders and rednexks work on their stuff at home in the middle of downtown.

The reason people move out to the hinterlands is they are sick of assholes like Dennis Raider the BTK killer telling them what to do on their property. Buddy of mine from childhood just built himself a four car garage out in the middle of nowhere. Oh and he added a coupla bedrooms a bath and a kitchen as an afterthought. He teaches school now maybe 15 miles away to the kids of prison guards that commute 50 miles to work...WHY? They are locked up...One piece of friggen barren desert is the same as another...why isn't his community next to the prison, or hell on top of it put them in caves underground.

To me ACTUAL urban planning (and Im being a little silly above) is where it is at. Present urban planing is about f'n Federal money on projects they don't understand by developers that rape a neighborhood build shit and leave so 20 years later someone else gets a federal grant to replace THAT.

My daughter lives with her brother and "the dudes" in an old architects in an area that was lookin rundown but the owners over time brought back,,,nice area now...

Light rail is coming. It is right now like 2 miles away...the are laying tracks by her now. The City having seen crime follow each mile built, has the balls to actually be honest.."Expect vandalism, burglary car theft to increase shortly, please keep valuables out of sight, please lock your cars and homes, please report lingering strangers..."

No one there asked for light rail...but the federal money pays by the mile so they keep building it a mile at at time.

Why arent those trains drive on drive off flatbeds like a ferry...take me and my car downtown while I nap?
 
about_average said:
No, there just comes a point when it's time to give up trying to explain something to someone who is willfully ignoring the historical record. That time came when I read post 441.

But I know you admitting to the truth would mean post 389 was stupid, and you wouldn't want that. So I understand why you can't.
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Interesting. So you are claiming that if we assume that I am totally wrong and everybody were fully aware of the spherical properties of the earth since 400 bc, it means that global warming is a threat? Non sequitur much? :rolleyes:




doctor_insanus said:
The saddest part of this whole situation is that the deniers in Congress are probably even dumber than the deniers in this thread.
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Or maybe they have though things through and drawn their own conclusions instead of just drinking the Kool-Aid.
 
If you use the word denier to describe someone who disagrees with you, then you are probably a True Believer just like your Evangelical allies in the Green movement. They have no need of Scientific examination and debate just like you.

:eek:

You take it on faith. The only difference is they believe they are going to hell and you believe we're all going to hell if we don't change our ways. You are both promising paradise through the personal salvation of accepting the faith.
 
Copernicus and Galileo were deniers of The One True Faith. People are executed today for their denial of The One True Faith.

It's probably good to keep a few crackpot theories around just in case you were worshiping before the wrong One True Faith.
 
Gaia and Yahweh, sittin' in a tree...

:D

... go figure, just like those radical Republicans and the Evangelicals and snake handlers.
 
StrangeLife said:
Interesting. So you are claiming that if we assume that I am totally wrong and everybody were fully aware of the spherical properties of the earth since 400 bc, it means that global warming is a threat?
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WTF? That's what you got from my post?
No wonder you think knowledge of a spherical earth was the exception rather than the rule amongst the scientific community. :rolleyes:
 
Those fucking Fundamentalists...

;) ;)

They just "know" that man is killing the earth after only 6,000 years. :mad:
 
query said:
Copernicus and Galileo were deniers of The One True Faith. People are executed today for their denial of The One True Faith.
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No one is executed for climate-change denialism, or even runs any great risk of losing tenure, and, N.B.: For every Galileo, there are at least a thousand TimeCube Guys.
 
No really, the climate is changing, take for instance yesterday, at two in the afternoon it was real warm here, but by 10 at night it had cooled off. Must be climate change.
 
KingOrfeo said:
No one is executed for climate-change denialism, or even runs any great risk of losing tenure, and, N.B.: For every Galileo, there are at least a thousand TimeCube Guys.
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4est_4est_Gump said:
If you use the word denier to describe someone who disagrees with you, then you are probably a True Believer just like your Evangelical allies in the Green movement. They have no need of Scientific examination and debate just like you.

:eek:

You take it on faith. The only difference is they believe they are going to hell and you believe we're all going to hell if we don't change our ways. You are both promising paradise through the personal salvation of accepting the faith.
Click to expand...

:cool:
 
Climate scientist drops the F-bomb after startling Arctic discovery.

Jason Box @climate_ice
Follow

If even a small fraction of Arctic sea floor carbon is released to the atmosphere, we're f'd.

11:43 AM - 29 Jul 2014 Copenhagen, Danmark
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The study concerns the large deposits of methane (CH4) — a greenhouse gas over twenty times more potent than CO2 — known to be buried beneath the Arctic. Stockholm University researchers found that some of that methane is leaking, and even making it to the ocean’s surface. They called the discovery “somewhat of a surprise,” which, according to Box, doesn’t quite communicate its importance. Motherboard senior editor Brian Merchant, sensing an opportunity to speak climate in more accessible language, followed up with Box, who stood by his assertion (and use of foul language):

“Even if a small fraction of the Arctic carbon were released to the atmosphere, we’re fucked,” he told me. What alarmed him was that ”the methane bubbles were reaching the surface. That was something new in my survey of methane bubbles,” he said.

“The conventional thought is that the bubbles would be dissolved before they reached the surface and that microorganisms would consume that methane, and that’s normal,” Box went on. But if the plumes are making it to the surface, that’s a brand new source of heat-trapping gases that we need to worry about.
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“The Arctic is our most immediate carbon concern,” Box said, referring also to the CH4 escaping from the melting permafrost. But the sentiment can be expanded to all of climate change:

“We’re on a trajectory to an unmanageable heating scenario, and we need to get off it,” he said. “We’re fucked at a certain point, right? It just becomes unmanageable. The climate dragon is being poked, and eventually the dragon becomes pissed off enough to trash the place.”
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KingOrfeo said:
No one is executed for climate-change denialism, or even runs any great risk of losing tenure...
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As far as tenure goes, it's a lot easier to make a living preaching doomsday. That's where all the money is these day.
 
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