Confused about Gay Marriage

[Recidiva]

I really hate to say this because I don't want to jeopardize the modicum of good-will I've earned here. However, for good or bad, homosexuals will always be "different". Frankly, alot of homosexual couples ar happy to be different. For instance,"Safe Bet", your banner says "Proud lesbian wife and mother!" Why do yo find it necessary to proclaim your homosexuality? Why should we care? YOU are drawing a distinction between you and every other wife and mother. What defines you? Your sexual preference? The fact that you are a proud wife and mother? My wife is a proud wife and mother. She doesn't need to further limit that my declaring her heterosexuality.(But honestly, that's due to socially accepted conventions, and that is what you want to change). I truly understand why you declare your homosexuality. You ARE proud of it and rightly so, and we are on a GLBT Internet forum. I guess what I'd like to suggest is that as homosexuals endeavor to use "Traditional" terminology to describe their relationships, they also sometimes make a point of their obvious differences.

And this often comes down to the heart of those who simply want life to go on as it has without difficult (for them) questions or distinctions.

A life well lived is not one where the status quo is maintained and the highest value is "not rocking the boat." Nor is it an ethical act to maintain false distinctions in order to shore up a position that is not about semantics, but truly about "being better than someone else."

Straight people are NOT superior, they do NOT hold the keys to the kingdom, they do NOT have an ethical or moral high ground here. If you refuse to grant basic rights to those who deserve them, that's YOUR moral failure, and no amount of defensiveness or semantic mumbo jumbo can hide the core of smug self assurance that has no basis in reality, only ego. How do I know? Because I'm straight and I know the difference between doing what's right and doing what makes me feel superior.

It would make a huge difference in standard of living and status and social equity if people were granted the right to HAVE a standard of living, status and social equity if they so choose.

I have no respect for "wanting things to stay the same" just so you don't have to feel as though perhaps society got it wrong for so very long. Society has gotten many things wrong for so very long and the answer is not to bury the issue in the sand and hope it goes away. It clearly isn't an issue for you, and your life would be just fine and dandy if nobody ever darkened your door with the uncomfortable truths that the world has any number of ways of marginalizing and blaming those who are seeking equity, and you've bought into them and feel righteous about them.

Shame on you.

 

[Etoile]

People used to think the earth was flat, too. Whoops!

 

[Safe_Bet]

Is this how you treat everyone who has a difference of opinion with you? Close minded-ness? Intolerance? Profanity? Guess what; there is no homosexual community. There is just one community and I'm just as much a member of it as you are. I was trying to learn more about how to interact with members of the community wh have a different life-style and who have legitimate concerns. I obviously came to the wrong place. This is a feel good place where you just want to be stroked, and that's fine. I'm sorry I didn't know that. But you guys blew an opportunity here. I came here to present clear sincere questions and you dismissed and cursed me. Nice job. The homosexuals I know are a hell of a lot nicer than you.

Oh, gee, I'm sorry!

I'm sorry you stepped into OUR world and found out what it's like to not be allowed to be your own trollish bad self. You came here to present questions and you got answers. You then proceeded to ignore those answers and substitute your own bullshit. That makes you a troll that is only here to argue. If it was otherwise you wouldn't be saying the same crap over and over again.

BTW, regarding you statement that there is "just one community and I'm just as much a member of it as you are" let me clue you in to the fact that the "A" in LGBTQIA doesn't stand for asshole, so no, you aren't any part of MY community. So like I said before - fuck off, dude.

 

[Recidiva]

People used to think the earth was flat, too. Whoops!

Also, smug and confused insistence upon an offensive world view is not being polite.

There are lots of ways to do things wrong.

 

[Ramone45]

Just so you know, if ever have the opportunity to express my opinion in a meaningful way, in a voting booth, your words won't have any influence on me. Just because someone was mean to you doesn't give you the right to be mean to somebody else. I want my homosexual friends to have their rights. What's more I hope they would not be discriminated against in any way. I'll dedicate my vote to my good friends. You can thank me later.

 

[Recidiva]

Just so you know, if ever have the opportunity to express my opinion in a meaningful way, in a voting booth, your words won't have any influence on me. Just because someone was mean to you doesn't give you the right to be mean to somebody else. I want my homosexual friends to have their rights. What's more I hope they would not be discriminated against in any way. I'll dedicate my vote to my good friends. You can thank me later.

I don't really care how you vote or what you think or how this affects you. I'm expressing myself according to the manners and tone I've been shown and that's what I do.

You have no actual power over this issue, despite your insistence that we should thank you and curry your favor. Sometimes having certain people disagree with you shows you that you're on the right path.

I hope some day you grow beyond thinking of your power and your chosen circle of friends, and start thinking about looking beyond into the world and thinking about "greater good" and the meaning of equality and free speech and free expression.

That I'd care about. In the meantime, you appear to be lacking the capacity to learn and somehow think you have the authority to preach. Which is the source of the manners and tone you've exhibited.

Every person in this thread has experienced much worse than your questions here. And that's why the offense of having everything stay the same, "separate and unequal", is intolerable.

If you want to address lost loved ones, suicides, beating victims and otherwise, and behave as if you hold some holy grail of politeness by telling them they should have just left well enough alone and hadn't been so...well...gay...at the world...they'd still be with us...well, you can't. And neither can we. So the voices that can't speak any more trump yours, and they're the ones that are heard the loudest, because of their tragic silence.

You can't compete with that, sorry. Neither can a dictionary definition.

 

[Etoile]

Also, smug and confused insistence upon an offensive world view is not being polite.

There are lots of ways to do things wrong.

Indeed. And "Idiot America" is turning out to be a very interesting book, even if my jaw occasionally drops at the stupidity of some people.

 

[Etoile]

Just so you know, if ever have the opportunity to express my opinion in a meaningful way, in a voting booth, your words won't have any influence on me. Just because someone was mean to you doesn't give you the right to be mean to somebody else. I want my homosexual friends to have their rights. What's more I hope they would not be discriminated against in any way. I'll dedicate my vote to my good friends. You can thank me later.

Feeling particularly self-important and smug, are we?

Everyone deserves equality. That's obvious.

Not everyone deserves respect, however. You show us some, and we'll show it back to you. Instead, you're flaunting your privilege, so you're getting a bad reaction. Funny how you don't flaunt white privilege to black people, isn't it?

 

[Recidiva]

Indeed. And "Idiot America" is turning out to be a very interesting book, even if my jaw occasionally drops at the stupidity of some people.

I'll have to check it out.

You can't legislate that people not be stupid. The only saving grace is you can't legislate that people can't be smart.

Smart doesn't make the news as often as stupid.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Just so you know, if ever have the opportunity to express my opinion in a meaningful way, in a voting booth, your words won't have any influence on me. Just because someone was mean to you doesn't give you the right to be mean to somebody else. I want my homosexual friends to have their rights. What's more I hope they would not be discriminated against in any way. I'll dedicate my vote to my good friends. You can thank me later.

Dude, your vote doesn't mean about shit to me. It's asshats like you that smile the smile and then vote "No" on LGBT rights as soon as the curtain closes on the voting booth.

Minority rights will always be determined by the judiciary because they are CONSTITUTIONAL guarantees. Minority rights will always be voted against by the majority because you and your smug ass ilk want to protect the freak'in status quo.

So in other words, screw you and your "thank me later" for your vote. You don't get to "vote" on my life nor my happiness.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Is this how you treat everyone who has a difference of opinion with you? Close minded-ness? Intolerance? Profanity?

Close minded to what? Your demand that I live my life in compromise to make you happy? Dude, I've been living my life that way already. You want to have a hetero marriage? I'll dance at your wedding. Can't be any more open-minded than that!

Intolerance for what?
You presented your questions, and we gave you our answers.

Then you insisted that we listen to your questions again.

You demanded to have an emotionless discussion. AFTER We told you that there were very strong emotions attached to these questions, very unpleasant, very hurtful. We had already given you our answers.

The emotions we had warned you about came to the fore. Now you're blaming us for them.

Yeah, I use curse words. They are a measure of my emotional distress, I assure you. You have been utterly dismissive of the answers you asked for, that people went to the trouble to provide-- in the face of emotional distress.

get this through your head; this is about our lives. not yours.

Guess what; there is no homosexual community. There is just one community and I'm just as much a member of it as you are. I was trying to learn more about how to interact with members of the community wh have a different life-style and who have legitimate concerns.

You show up and make demands and them blame people for not acceding to your demands. This is how NOT to interact with members of a group you don't understand. You said our concerns are legitimate. Legitimate is a good start. I don't think you understand how important they are, how besetting.

I obviously came to the wrong place. This is a feel good place where you just want to be stroked, and that's fine. I'm sorry I didn't know that.

Didn't you take a look at the thread titles, dude?

But you guys blew an opportunity here. I came here to present clear sincere questions and you dismissed and cursed me. Nice job. .

I asked you something, and you never answered it; If I talk to you like a nice respectful little dyke, how will that help me? What opportunities do you offer? The chance to make one more straight guy feel a little better about his straight privilege?

Do you have any other reason to be here? Want to get to know some folk, hang out and make friends? Or are you just dropping into the gay ghetto?

You got clear, sincere answers. You don't like them-- but that's not our problem. We have other problems more pressing than the opinion of a single, total, stranger.

I give you props; you did try, You apologised for stomping on our toes-- you apologised for being about to stomp on our toes. then you stomped on our toes again.

Now you're all butthurt because people are more concerned with their toes than with the guy in the boots.

The homosexuals I know are a hell of a lot nicer than you.

I know many very nice straight people, too. But you might try asking the homosexual people you know, the questions you asked here-- face to face. I wonder if you've ever done that.

Just so you know, if ever have the opportunity to express my opinion in a meaningful way, in a voting booth, your words won't have any influence on me. Just because someone was mean to you doesn't give you the right to be mean to somebody else. I want my homosexual friends to have their rights. What's more I hope they would not be discriminated against in any way. I'll dedicate my vote to my good friends. You can thank me later.

That's mighty straight of you.

 

[Etoile]

Genuine tip for the OP and any lurkers: It's okay to use the word gay. Homosexual is a term of medical association, and many people don't like to be pathologized like that.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Genuine tip for the OP and any lurkers: It's okay to use the word gay. Homosexual is a term of medical association, and many people don't like to be pathologized like that.

I prefer to use the term "queer" because it makes dickwaffles like the OP "uncomfortable" - as they SHOULD be.

 

[Ramone45]

Arrrgh!!! Here we go with the word thing, again.
I know lots of homosexuals who are NOT "gay". (Ahem)
I know lots of heterosexuals who are NOT "straight".

 

[Safe_Bet]

Arrrgh!!! Here we go with the word thing, again.
I know lots of homosexuals who are NOT "gay". (Ahem)
I know lots of heterosexuals who are NOT "straight".

You know LOTS of homosexuals, huh? How many is "LOTS"? Two, three, ten, a hundred?

If you know "LOTS" why did you come on to this forum and ask about "terminology"? Why didn't you ask your "LOTS" of gay friends?

You don't need to answer because I know why. You are full of shit is "why".

BTW, I am starting to find you REALLY offensive, asshole. Go back to the GB with the rest of the trolls.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Daily effects of straight privilege

This article is based on Peggy McIntosh’s article on white privilege and was written by a number of straight-identified students at Earlham College who got together to look at some examples of straight privilege. These dynamics are but a few examples of the privilege which straight people have. Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and queer-identified folk have a range of different experiences, but cannot count on most of these conditions in their lives.

On a daily basis as a straight person…

* I can be pretty sure that my roomate, hallmates and classmates will be comfortable with my sexual orientation.

* If I pick up a magazine, watch TV, or play music, I can be certain my sexual orientation will be represented.

* When I talk about my heterosexuality (such as in a joke or talking about my relationships), I will not be accused of pushing my sexual orientation onto others.

* I do not have to fear that if my family or friends find out about my sexual orientation there will be economic, emotional, physical or psychological consequences.

* I did not grow up with games that attack my sexual orientation (IE fag tag or smear the queer).

* I am not accused of being abused, warped or psychologically confused because of my sexual orientation.

* I can go home from most meetings, classes, and conversations without feeling excluded, fearful, attacked, isolated, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance, stereotyped or feared because of my sexual orientation.

* I am never asked to speak for everyone who is heterosexual.

* I can be sure that my classes will require curricular materials that testify to the existence of people with my sexual orientation.

* People don't ask why I made my choice of sexual orientation.

* People don't ask why I made my choice to be public about my sexual orientation.

* I do not have to fear revealing my sexual orientation to friends or family. It's assumed.

* My sexual orientation was never associated with a closet.

* People of my gender do not try to convince me to change my sexual orientation.

* I don't have to defend my heterosexuality.

* I can easily find a religious community that will not exclude me for being heterosexual.

* I can count on finding a therapist or doctor willing and able to talk about my sexuality.

* I am guaranteed to find sex education literature for couples with my sexual orientation.

* Because of my sexual orientation, I do not need to worry that people will harass me.

* I have no need to qualify my straight identity.

* My masculinity/femininity is not challenged because of my sexual orientation.

* I am not identified by my sexual orientation.

* I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help my sexual orientation will not work against me.

* If my day, week, or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it has sexual orientation overtones.

* Whether I rent or I go to a theater, Blockbuster, an EFS or TOFS movie, I can be sure I will not have trouble finding my sexual orientation represented.

* I am guaranteed to find people of my sexual orientation represented in the Earlham curriculum, faculty, and administration.

* I can walk in public with my significant other and not have people double-take or stare.

* I can choose to not think politically about my sexual orientation.

* I do not have to worry about telling my roommate about my sexuality. It is assumed I am a heterosexual.

* I can remain oblivious of the language and culture of LGBTQ folk without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion. (I.E, woe betide the gay person who doesn't want to involve themselves in straight culture. That would be a "Screaming fairy" or some such.)

* I can go for months without being called straight.

* I'm not grouped because of my sexual orientation.

* My individual behavior does not reflect on people who identity as heterosexual. (For an example of this, Rmaone here is threatening ALL gays with the potential loss of his vote, because of the reactions of four or five people on this forum)

* In everyday conversation, the language my friends and I use generally assumes my sexual orientation. For example, sex inappropriately referring to only heterosexual sex or family meaning heterosexual relationships with kids.

* People do not assume I am experienced in sex (or that I even have it!) merely because of my sexual orientation.(Also, only homosexuals are encouraged to remain celibate their entire lives in order to avoid "sin" and virgin gays are told "well, you're not gay yet."

* I can kiss a person of the opposite gender on the heart or in the cafeteria without being watched and stared at.

* Nobody calls me straight with maliciousness. (Stella notes; I, personally, use the term to describe malicious people at times, because of the behavior I've observed from so many straights.)

* People can use terms that describe my sexual orientation and mean positive things (IE "straight as an arrow", "standing up straight" or "straightened out") instead of demeaning terms (IE "ewww, that's gay" or being "queer").

* I am not asked to think about why I am straight.

* I can be open about my sexual orientation without worrying about my job.

AND one that she missed:

*I can feel proud of myself for trying to accept gay folk as if they were regular people.

 

[blade_rocknut]

Arrrgh!!! Here we go with the word thing, again.
I know lots of homosexuals who are NOT "gay". (Ahem)
I know lots of heterosexuals who are NOT "straight".

Ya know, I'm not even going to present another point here- they've already been made quite well. The guy asked his questions, got his answers, then blew his cover by rpeatedly dismissing said answers for the sake of continuing this pointless cycle of agitation. I generally hold to a three strikes type policy in dealing with the public, both business and personal relations included. By the time you reach the third strike, you pretty well have established your intentions and are fair game to be persecuted in whatever fashion deemed suitable by those you are antagonizing. Ramone, I am heterosexual, but am ashamed to admit I supposedly belong to the same " community" as you. It is past ime to let this thread die off; even though Stella will continue to bring new, compelling material to post- it doesn't matter to Ramone. You can't fix stupid.
Furthermore, homosexuals who aren't "gay" ? maybe because they aren't allowed to fully engage in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness! ( gay being synonymous with happy...) I wouldn't be happy under those circumstances, would anyone?

 

[Stella_Omega]

even though Stella will continue to bring new, compelling material to post- it doesn't matter to Ramone. You can't fix stupid.

I hear you, Blade.

Arrrgh!!! Here we go with the word thing, again.
I know lots of homosexuals who are NOT "gay". (Ahem)
I know lots of heterosexuals who are NOT "straight".

I know someone named Ramone who will have a fat lip if i ever meet him face to face.

 

[CiralFox]

I'm adding this just for a food for thought:
This came from a psychology article that posed some GREAT questions for you, Ramon.

1. What do you think caused your heterosexuality?

2. When and how did you first decide you were a heterosexual?

3. Is it possible your heterosexuality is just a phase you may grow out of?

4. Is is possible your heterosexuality stems from a neurotic fear of others of
the same sex?

5. Isn't it possible that all you need is a good Gay lover?

6. Heterosexuals have histories of failures in Gay relationships. Do you think you may have turned to heterosexuality out of fear of rejection?

7. If you've never slept with a person of the same sex, how do you know you wouldn't prefer that?

8. If heterosexuality is normal, why are a disproportionate number of mental patients heterosexual?

9. To whom have you disclosed your heterosexual tendencies? How did they react?

10. Your heterosexuality doesn't offend me as long as you don't try to force it on me. Why do you people feel compelled to seduce others into your sexual orientation?

11. If you choose to nurture children, would you want them to be heterosexual, knowing the problems they would face?

12. The great majority of child molesters are heterosexuals. Do you really consider it safe to expose your children to heterosexual teachers?

13. Why do you insist on being so obvious, and making a public spectacle of your heterosexuality? Can't you just be what you are and keep it quiet?

14. How can you ever hope to become a whole person if you limit yourself to a compulsive, exclusive heterosexual object choice and remain unwilling to explore and develop your normal, natural, healthy, God-given homosexual potential?

15. Heterosexuals are noted for assigning themselves and each other to
narrowly restricted, stereotyped sex-roles. Why do you cling to such
unhealthy role-playing?

16. Why do heterosexuals place so much emphasis on sex?

17. With all the societal support marriage receives, the divorce rate is spiraling. Why are there so few stable relationships among heterosexuals?

18. How could the human race survive if everyone were heterosexual, considering the menace of overpopulation?

19. There seem to be very few happy heterosexuals. Techniques have been developed with which you might be able to change if you really want to.
Have you considered aversion therapy?

20. Do heterosexuals hate and/or distrust others of their own sex? Is that what makes them heterosexual?

 

[Stella_Omega]

This could become a rather fun thread with all the debate resources and stuff...

 

[CiralFox]

Don't you just love debates?
I love debates.
I just remember that list as a "thought provoking question" what if it was turned around and heterosexuality was not the norm?

So, these questions are for Ramon. xD

 

[blade_rocknut]

Down where I'm from, folks like ramone are utilized strictly for entertainment value. You know the type; always has a more extreme version of the story you just told, wants to be your friend 'til you walk away, tells tales so off the wall you wonder if he believes them himself. I once knew a guy, widely known for his aversion to the truth ( sadly has since passed away). His presence could bring a bustling jobsite to a halt, to revel in the outlandish story of the day. He could argue a moot point 'til the average person fell down from mental exhaustion. But he was harmless- most people loved him and mourners were many at his passing. I'm rambling- my point is, if you're going to be full of shit, at least take pride in your craft, be entertaining. Anyone can be a pain in the ass!
Loved the article, Ciral. No telling how many hetero males just assumed they're hetero because that's what they're " supposed to be".

 

[CiralFox]

Blade: Exactly.

And...I just think that Ramon is a troll...and narrow-minded, and stupid. =D

But thats only with nice words used. =D

 

[teknight]

Guess what; there is no homosexual community. There is just one community and I'm just as much a member of it as you are.

Yup. There's only one community- and the Jews were but a different kind of Nazi.

 

[JohnnyVert]

Mostly, I'm confused about terminology. By way of disclosure, I do not agree with applying the word "marriage" to the union between same-sex persons, because the term is inaccurate. Homosexuals do have the right to have their union sanctioned and they should have all the priveleges and responsibilities of a heterosexual marriage. I don't fully understand why homosexuals are so hung up on applying the term "marriage" to their union. Which brings me to our next point. I read a story about a lesbian couple and one member of the couple was referred to as the "wife". Does that mean the other member of the couple is the "husband"? And how am I to know which is which? Or are they both "wives"? Please, I'm not trying to be a jerk. I sincerely want to understand. If they are both "wives", that clearly is not a "marriage". It is just as valid a relationship, but it is not a "marriage". Can anyone offer some insight?

Marriage is a relationship, two men can be married and have that relationship.

I disagree with one of the other posters, you can have a husband and wife in a gay male marriage, if you see wife as a role not as a woman. I had a relationship with a guy who at one point told me he wanted to make me his wife, not in the context of legal marriage but how he saw our relationship and my role in it. Everyone doesn't have to be the same.