Continuations by people other than the original author/creator aren't worth getting worked up about.

[SimonDoom]

As far as Literotica is concerned, I do wish that the site would exercise some control over stories that have sat stagnant and incomplete for years. Delete them and let the writer resubmit if and when they get back into the mood or overcome whatever obstacles they have faced to cause the stagnation. Maybe if writers knew that they had a deadline to complete their story, they would be either motivated to keep at it, or better yet, complete it before publishing.

Why? Why would this bother you? You can choose not to read them. If you do start a series and it doesn't finish, I can see why it might be a tiny bit annoying, but nothing more than that.

I've read many series that did not "end," and it did not bother me at all. That's just the reality of how it goes.

Obviously, the site is not going to do this. The site values making as much content as possible available to as many readers as possible. It is not going to compromise that value because a few readers don't like it when stories don't finish.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

No. 1, putting aside our own subjective opinions, the site clearly allows fanfiction, i.e., allowing Lit authors to write stories based on the universes of well known published works, but it also clearly says you cannot write sequels and derivative works of Lit authors without permission. So, that's the rule. It doesn't matter whether it's logical.

No. 2, we may disagree, but this rule makes perfect sense to me as a matter of economics, industry custom, and respect for our fellow Lit authors. It IS a little inconsistent, logically, but I think it makes good practical sense.

Fanfiction probably, in most cases, IS copyright infringement, but it's generally not pursued by well known authors (although it is by some) because it's not worth it, because they are making lots of money and the fanfiction authors aren't, and also because in a way it probably adds value to their intellecual property as a whole. It gins up interest in their work and probably increases their sales. These arguments don't apply to Lit authors. I make no money from this. I do it for personal satisfaction, and I feel it would be disrespectful to me for you to write a story based on mine without my permission.

I didn't mention the Lit Rule as in the greater sense I think it's extraneous. Also, reading the publishing guidelines I don't see that specific prohibition in there. A couple of mentions of what you can and can't do with fanfic though.

Your argument centers around ethics. So why is fan fiction ethical for major IPs but not for Lit stories?
Apparently it's ethical to write stories based on Tolkein's characters but not based on Rando Lit Author.
Why is that?

 

[AwkwardMD]

Consider yourself called out.

Please let me know where I got this one wrong:

Omen asserted many people are assholes. You took offense to this, self-identifying as an asshole, and you want an apology.

Is that about the size of it?

 

[Bramblethorn]

I know people feel strongly about this topic and I'm well aware of the legal and ethical arguments. I also feel like as a community which is producing (mostly) free and (somewhat) taboo-breaking content, it would be nice if there was more of a 'hippy' attitude towards it. People will say its down to each individual author, and indeed it is and it must be. I don't know that I've much on here worth borrowing from (although I have been approached for permission for one derivative work) but I am edging towards including some kind of blanket release for what I write and encouraging others to do the same (if they want to, of course.)

I would probably be more relaxed about it if it all was some kind of hippy share-alike thing.

But many of us have had stories ripped off by people who are trying to make a buck off them, in the most cynical mercenary way possible. I can't find it in me to feel peace, love and understanding to the dude who copied my story and put it up on Amazon for sale (with a quick search-and-replace on the names), or the ones who rip off Lit authors' stories and upload AI-droned readings of them on YouTube to be monetised. I didn't agree to be the filling in the sausage.

Most of what I write here is personal to me in one way or another. There are echoes of people I've loved, friends who are dead, things that hurt me badly. I may not be able to stop some petty crook in Russia or wherever co-opting that (without even reading it) to make a few cents from it, but I don't have to condone it. People who want to do better than the vors can show a bit of courtesy, in the same kind of way that one knocks and waits for an invitation before entering somebody else's house.

If somebody asks me, and if what they're asking isn't completely repugnant, I'll probably say yes. I've done so before (to one of the authors in this thread, in fact). But if people want to think well of me they can ask, and wait for an answer.

If somebody thinks that's unreasonable, well, there's not a lot I can do to stop them. If they choose to write some kind of continuation to one of my stories, there are many places they can post it where I'm unlikely to be able to get it taken down. But I'm still going to consider them an asshole.

In my opinion, there two scenarios associated with "continuation" of someone else's work:

• The first is when someone wants to expand on what has been fully created, and write a sequel. The "fandom" effect.
• The second is when someone wants to complete an obviously incomplete work by someone else. The "frustration" effect.

There's a third: when the author has finished the story but some reader doesn't accept it as "finished" because the author hasn't yet milked it quite as dry as they could have.

In which case I never really understand those who object that doing so somehow breaches the ethics of the site - the idea that people can do this is surely built into the very structure of the site. (I appreciate that this means such stories should only be published in the fan fiction section.) And those who object are basically arguing that stories published on literotica somehow deserve a higher level of protection from unauthorised sequels than Star Wars or The 100 or The Wheel of Time, which seems bizzare.

I do think there's an argument to be made for that, yes. Besides the points that @Erozetta already made on this, I'll quote Pratchett:

J.R.R. Tolkien has become a sort of mountain, appearing in all subsequent fantasy in the way that Mt. Fuji appears so often in Japanese prints. Sometimes it’s big and up close. Sometimes it’s a shape on the horizon. Sometimes it’s not there at all, which means that the artist either has made a deliberate decision against the mountain, which is interesting in itself, or is in fact standing on Mt. Fuji.

These big media properties are inescapable. I grew up without ever seeing the original Star Wars trilogy, but as a teenager I could still have told you all the major characters and much of the plot, because it's everywhere one looks and one has to have a certain amount of knowledge about these things to keep up in conversation. Anybody who writes about kids with magical powers is going to find themselves measured against Harry Potter.

Beyond fiction, these stories influence how people see the world; my country had something like 50,000 people record their religion as "Jedi" on the census, and while I'm sure many of those are doing it for the lols, it only became a thing because there are quite a few people for whom Star Wars really is the closest they get to a holy text*.

When people get something shoved down their throats to the extent that these things are, it's to be expected that they'll spit some of it back up. I don't think the same applies for the average Literotica author.

*which seems like the spiritual equivalent of living entirely on 2-minute noodles, but I guess there are worse things out there. And I'll grudgingly admit to having picked up a few things from Lord of the Rings.

 

[alohadave]

I've read many series that did not "end," and it did not bother me at all. That's just the reality of how it goes.

It's a weird thing that people have. I don't understand it either. Lots of things are unfinished, but you can still enjoy what is there.

 

[Erozetta]

But where's the harm?
If someone were crazy enough to want to write a story in my "universe" using some of my characters how am I harmed?
If they put in a note saying, "if you like this please go checkout the author who inspired me..." arguably they've helped me.

I think that's where arguments like "stealing" fall apart. You aren't any worse off if someone does it.

Irritation or upset in any way is harm (an adverse effect, not a physical injury) to the original author.

It's not a great help if the writing quality of the derivative work is shit and people then avoid your work for inspiring the other.

What if the derivative work takes your (self insert) characters into hard noncon territory and you're adamantly against such content? Because that's the risk of carte blanche with the works we write on here and that's the kind of thing that would have me up in arms for another author. And I'm personally fine with noncon content. It wouldn't bother me. But I know it would bother others, and that bothers me.

I'm also fine with people using my work as long as I get veto power of content and get to edit for quality control as far as grammar and storytelling. They can use my work, but they cannot write worse than me, which is hard to do, so they will most likely be fine.

 

[SimonDoom]

I didn't mention the Lit Rule as in the greater sense I think it's extraneous. Also, reading the publishing guidelines I don't see that specific prohibition in there. A couple of mentions of what you can and can't do with fanfic though.

Your argument centers around ethics. So why is fan fiction ethical for major IPs but not for Lit stories?
Apparently it's ethical to write stories based on Tolkein's characters but not based on Rando Lit Author.
Why is that?

The Site is not quite as clear on this as it should be, but in addition to the stated rules, which indicate that Lit intends to abide by authors' copyrights, Laurel has chimed in specifically on this point. She wrote this in a forum in 2017:

There are authors at Literotica don't mind if other writers continue their storylines. Some authors even encourage others to write the next chapter. There are also writers who do not want this.

We allow works derivative of other Lit author's work so long as the continuing author has contacted the original author and has received express permission to post the work here.

That's fairly clear.

As to your second question, I don't think the "ethics" of it are crystal clear with regard to published authors, and some published authors do not approve of fan fiction. It's a gray area.

But the fact that it is accepted, as a matter of industry custom and practice, for fanfic of non-Lit authors doesn't make it OK to do it with Lit authors. I think it's disrespectful, and it's obvious from the comments authors have made ad nausem in this forum for years that many other authors feel this way very strongly. So, knowing that, why would you choose to try to justify doing something that would disrespect a fellow author? Maybe "ethics" isn't quite the right term for it, but "respect" and "courtesy" certainly apply.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Irritation or upset in any way is harm (an adverse effect, not a physical injury) to the original author.

I'm sorry, but being annoyed by something is not harm.

That said, you are under no obligation to read any of it.
In fact what most frequently happens on Lit is people want to continue/finish stories by authors who have disappeared from Lit. Meaning odds are they will never even know about it.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Please let me know where I got this one wrong:

Omen asserted many people are assholes. You took offense to this, self-identifying as an asshole, and you want an apology.

Is that about the size of it?

Omen asserted that anyone who disagreed with him was an asshole.
Either you don't understand the distinction or you're just desperate to troll.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

The Site is not quite as clear on this as it should be, but in addition to the stated rules, which indicate that Lit intends to abide by authors' copyrights, Laurel has chimed in specifically on this point. She wrote this in a forum in 2017:





That's fairly clear.

As to your second question, I don't think the "ethics" of it are crystal clear with regard to published authors, and some published authors do not approve of fan fiction. It's a gray area.

But the fact that it is accepted, as a matter of industry custom and practice, for fanfic of non-Lit authors doesn't make it OK to do it with Lit authors. I think it's disrespectful, and it's obvious from the comments authors have made ad nausem in this forum for years that many other authors feel this way very strongly. So, knowing that, why would you choose to try to justify doing something that would disrespect a fellow author? Maybe "ethics" isn't quite the right term for it, but "respect" and "courtesy" certainly apply.

We have a very vocal group that oppose it. As evidenced by this thread there are quite a few who feel differently.
So clearly we can't predict how any given author would feel about it, so it's a bit of a reach to claim doing it is "disrespecting" another author.
In fact, over the course of these threads we've had a few people acknowledge that it's flattering that someone loves their work that much.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery after all.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Sometimes it's best to just let two things sit side by side.

I’m kind of disappointed not everyone shares these views, but that’s people for you. There’s all kinds and many of them are assholes.

Omen asserted that anyone who disagreed with him was an asshole.
Either you don't understand the distinction or you're just desperate to troll.

Feel free to continue to self-identify though. It helps when you wear the sign.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Sometimes it's best to just let two things sit side by side.



Feel free to continue to self-identify though. It helps when you wear the sign.

You are a terrible troll, yet you try so hard...
It's sad really.

 

[AwkwardMD]

You are a terrible troll, yet you try so hard...
It's sad really.

Okay.

 

[Erozetta]

I'm sorry, but being annoyed by something is not harm.

That said, you are under no obligation to read any of it.
In fact what most frequently happens on Lit is people want to continue/finish stories by authors who have disappeared from Lit. Meaning odds are they will never even know about it.

Agree to disagree on that. Harm is more than something singularly life changing. I personally see harm as anything that affects another person negatively. I don't enjoy causing harm, nor do I enjoy arguing for arguments sake. We don't agree, no harm no foul.

What are some of the possibilities of opening everyone's works to being continued without needing permission from the creator?

What would likely happen by removing the idea of asking permission to use another author's work is a bunch of guys writing shitty quality rape fantasies using the characters of female authors as barely coded stand ins for those authors. (At least that's the way my DMs have said the odds would lean.)

I mean, realistically, those probably already exist, they are just less direct than using the intended target's actual stories as a base to work from.

And I believe fanfic here is stricter on noncon rules. These stories are not being posted under fanfic, but under the category that the story fits within, as though it were the work of that author and not the continuation of the work of another author

If continuations of this nature were forced to be posted under fanfic, I'd have less of a problem with it as it would be under stricter guidelines and there would be no question of the work being derivative of another.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Okay.

The grownups are talking here, feel free to come back when you've learned to disagree in good faith.

 

[Cacatua_Galerita]

Jesus,

Would it be a sin to submit an entry into the Mickey Spillane event? The novelist Frank Morrison Spillane only died in 2006 so his IP hasn’t expired. I’m worried I may be smote until I’m smitten – you know how I enjoy being punished.

While I’ve got you. I’m thinking of writing a ‘Coming of Age’ story but this would clearly be a derivative work of the Book of Tobit, in the Old Testament. Who is the copyright holder of this story? I know it isn’t King James, because this story only appears in the Catholic and Orthodox Bibles.

May the Force be with you, CG.

P.S. The check I put in the collection plate – could you wait until Thursday before banking it?

---

I’m facetiously pointing out that “all derivative works are theft” is a bit too black and white. (As lovecraft68 shows, there’s at least fifty shades of grey involved.)

Because this is an American site, I generally agree with “no, you cannot continue another author’s story without their permission”. US laws will mostly support that (if you have the resources to employ them).

However, if you a writing a parody version, a ‘homage’, an ‘inspired by’, setting your story in a similar universe, or the initial story was already a derivative work or common trope, then the ‘moral answer’ is less clear cut.

If you’re incapable of dealing with nuance, then stick with the basic answer of “don’t without explicit permission”.

 

[Erozetta]

Jesus,

Would it be a sin to submit an entry into the Mickey Spillane event? The novelist Frank Morrison Spillane only died in 2006 so his IP hasn’t expired. I’m worried I may be smote until I’m smitten – you know how I enjoy being punished.

While I’ve got you. I’m thinking of writing a ‘Coming of Age’ story but this would clearly be a derivative work of the Book of Tobit, in the Old Testament. Who is the copyright holder of this story? I know it isn’t King James, because this story only appears in the Catholic and Orthodox Bibles.

May the Force be with you, CG.

P.S. The check I put in the collection plate – could you wait until Thursday before banking it?

---

I’m facetiously pointing out that “all derivative works are theft” is a bit too black and white. (As lovecraft68 shows, there’s at least fifty shades of grey involved.)

Because this is an American site, I generally agree with “no, you cannot continue another author’s story without their permission”. US laws will mostly support that (if you have the resources to employ them).

However, if you a writing a parody version, a ‘homage’, an ‘inspired by’, setting your story in a similar universe, or the initial story was already a derivative work or common trope, then the ‘moral answer’ is less clear cut.

If you’re incapable of dealing with nuance, then stick with the basic answer of “don’t without explicit permission”.

Are you picking up one of his stories and "finishing" it for him?

Inspired works is a different thing than picking up another author's work and posting your own ending to it. If you want to do that, go to chain stories and have at it.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

The Site is not quite as clear on this as it should be, but in addition to the stated rules, which indicate that Lit intends to abide by authors' copyrights, Laurel has chimed in specifically on this point. She wrote this in a forum in 2017:





That's fairly clear.

As to your second question, I don't think the "ethics" of it are crystal clear with regard to published authors, and some published authors do not approve of fan fiction. It's a gray area.

But the fact that it is accepted, as a matter of industry custom and practice, for fanfic of non-Lit authors doesn't make it OK to do it with Lit authors. I think it's disrespectful, and it's obvious from the comments authors have made ad nausem in this forum for years that many other authors feel this way very strongly. So, knowing that, why would you choose to try to justify doing something that would disrespect a fellow author? Maybe "ethics" isn't quite the right term for it, but "respect" and "courtesy" certainly apply.

The issue here is that we aren't discussing whether some Lit rule was violated or not. The O.P. clearly started the discussion in a much wider sense. Having that in mind, ethically speaking, there is no difference between writing fanfic of a popular series and writing a continuation or a spin-off of some Lit story, AS LONG as the new author clearly states that they are writing a fanfic or unofficial continuation or whatever of the original story, and as long as the new author isn't financially benefiting from said fanfic.

There are those who will argue that fanfic is okay because everyone knows whose Star Wars or LoTR are, but that's a weak argument at best, as long as the new author of the Lit, or Amazon, or SOL, or AO3 story clearly states who wrote the original and holds copyright to the characters and the world. This here is a discussion of the general ethics of doing something like this, and Literotica's rules have no bearing here, unless Laurel was proclaimed a saint and thus holds some moral high ground.

 

[jsmiam]

Please let me know where I got this one wrong:

Omen asserted many people are assholes. You took offense to this, self-identifying as an asshole, and you want an apology.

Is that about the size of it?

Omen’s post indirectly, but directly too, called the OP an asshole. That’s the size of it. If you’re trying to wordplay your way out of seeing that, then that’s where you got this one wrong. You also got it wrong by somehow reading I wanted or expected an Apology. How exactly did you see that? Two wrongs. Too wrong. EDIT: and I (basically) agreed overall with omen about continuing works (but not about the insult) too. So you misread that as well. Make that three wrongs.

I’ll enforce a “one retort per alt” policy though. Done with ya.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Omen asserted that anyone who disagreed with him was an asshole.
Either you don't understand the distinction or you're just desperate to troll.

I think you both missed the real point here, and I wonder if @jsmiam did as well, since he only bolded the asshole part.

In her sanctimonious post (one of many), Omenainen possibly meant to say that those who are okay with this are assholes, or maybe she was just saying that some people in general are assholes. It's not 100% clear.
But that's not the best part. The best part is the fact that she is so obviously outraged by this practice, yet her best buddy here, to quote Omenainen, is "stealing" in the same way by writing Star Wars fanfic, yet they are still best buddies somehow, and there is clearly no issue there.

If you are going to grandstand and preach, be consistent at least.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

Why? Why would this bother you? You can choose not to read them. If you do start a series and it doesn't finish, I can see why it might be a tiny bit annoying, but nothing more than that.

I've read many series that did not "end," and it did not bother me at all. That's just the reality of how it goes.

Obviously, the site is not going to do this. The site values making as much content as possible available to as many readers as possible. It is not going to compromise that value because a few readers don't like it when stories don't finish.

Once again the terminology, definition, or whatever you want to call it comes into play.

I was referring to an obviously incomplete story, where there may be a beginning, and possibly a middle, but there is not ending. No resolution. No closure. These are totally different than a series of episodic tales that can stand on their own without anything further being required. I have two episodic series here that I have left as "active" in case I ever decide to add additional episodes, but every installment in both series is itself, complete.

Sometimes these stories are obviously incomplete, as evidenced by there only being one or two chapters posted that are more than a few years old. Other times, their incompleteness isn't evident until a reader has already made an investment in them and winds up frustrated that there isn't closure.

Now, the series manager feature, if used correctly can help to make things clearer, whether it is a chapter story or an episodic series, but stories that have been on the site for years didn't have that as an option to identify whether or not they were complete.

 

[RejectReality]

That's kind of my point. It costs about $45 at minimum to register copyright of a work. Who's going to pay $45 to protect a work put up for free? Particularly those who have over 100 works?

You can collect multiple works as an anthology and copyright them that way. It can be multiple novels worth of stories collected under the title "Darkniciad Anthology #1" and kill many birds with one $45. KeithD mentioned doing that to save time, money, and paperwork on some of his.

Not that it's really worth it when you're writing freely available smut stories, but it is an option.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

Rather than delete incomplete series, perhaps they could be moved to an archive, where they are still available to be read, and possibly continued by the author without having to make multiple resubmissions.

But in either scenario, delete or archive, how would it be determined if a series is complete or not? The distinction between separate chapters of a single stories and anthology type series is a not a simple matter. Many series are a hybrid, made up of stand alone stories that connect into one longer narrative.

As for the overall issue, my position is that no one else knows what happens to my characters, so anything written as a continuation is worthless and not worth any reader's time.

Archiving would be an option I could support.

As for how completeness could be determined, that would require more editorial prowess than this site is capable of currently, at least where older stories are concerned. Unless Laurel and Manu wanted to create an review committee or something similar made up of select members of the site, or encourage readers to report stagnant and incomplete stories.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

SOL has a system that marks stories incomplete and inactive. You see it in the story listings when you search. For people who will absolutely not read something that is not finished, it's a useful feature. Something similar could easily be setup at uploading that gives the option to allow/authorize continuations by others.

That is one of the sites I was thinking of.

 

[SimonDoom]

There are those who will argue that fanfic is okay because everyone knows whose Star Wars or LoTR are, but that's a weak argument at best, as long as the new author of the Lit, or Amazon, or SOL, or AO3 story clearly states who wrote the original and holds copyright to the characters and the world. This here is a discussion of the general ethics of doing something like this, and Literotica's rules have no bearing here, unless Laurel was proclaimed a saint and thus holds some moral high ground.

I personally have mixed feelings about fanfic. It's probably, in most cases, copyright infringement, and some authors don't like it in the same way that some Lit authors don't want their stuff used without permission.

But even if you think fanfic is, on balance, it doesn't follow that we MUST therefore accept that it's OK to write stories of Lit authors without permission. There are some special reasons relating to Lit that are different, and that's evident in how many authors here feel that way. We're not getting paid. We receive compensation in the satisfaction of writing our own original stories. We are a community, while fanfic authors on a fanfic page are not in a community with famous others of the fanfic source material.

This makes sense to me. It seems to make sense to many of your other fellow authors here. It may not make sense to you, and if so there's been so much discussion of it that we'll probably just have to agree to disagree.

Fortunately, Literotica has a given us a rule to resolve the issue, and it makes sense from their position that it would be OK to have a rule that treats these two classes of authors differently. By allowing fanfic, they are abiding by industry norms. By disallowing unauthorized stories based on other Lit stories, they are protecting the copyrights of their authors and honoring the sense that many of them have that they have an exclusive artistic right to make these decisions.

It doesn't always have to make perfect sense, and I concede in this case it doesn't. It just has to work, and to make enough sense. I think that's the case here.