COVID impacts

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

And tear gas is also a respiratory irritant - a couple of protestors have died just from gas exposure - so it may well increase vulnerability to infection via respiratory pathways.

Exactly!

For lots of reasons, it's much more dangerous than people seem to realize. In earlier protests in Seattle or Portland (can't remember which - it was about a year ago now), the police managed to lodge a tear gas canister in someone's skull. In one of the George Floyd protests, a college student lost an eye to a tear gas canister. One jackass cop sprayed a little kid. Another pulled down someone's mask to spray them in the face.

I wish people would disabuse themselves of the notion that it's a safe deterrent. It's just non-lethal, usually.

With a potentially fatal respiratory disease running rampant, the potential for lethality is much greater, and we don't know how much greater.

 

[JamesMiehoff]

There is also a video making the rounds of a protester successfully kicking a tear gas grenade back to the cops. After kicking it, he turned and ran about 15 feet away and turned back and a second tear gas canister hit him squarely in the nads.

No further information about whether the cops were aiming there or not.

James

 

[Black_and_White_Writer]

And get a good supply of books, movies and booze or you’ll be really bored. If you’re not sick.

That’s my suggestions....

That’s feels like you’ve peaked inside my head, once I’ve walked the dogs, done my chores and exercised I love to curl up reading or watching something and doing something a bit creative on the PC with Inkscape or writing.

 

[Black_and_White_Writer]

Exactly!

For lots of reasons, it's much more dangerous than people seem to realize. In earlier protests in Seattle or Portland (can't remember which - it was about a year ago now), the police managed to lodge a tear gas canister in someone's skull. In one of the George Floyd protests, a college student lost an eye to a tear gas canister. One jackass cop sprayed a little kid. Another pulled down someone's mask to spray them in the face.

I wish people would disabuse themselves of the notion that it's a safe deterrent. It's just non-lethal, usually.

With a potentially fatal respiratory disease running rampant, the potential for lethality is much greater, and we don't know how much greater.

Very true, from my experience living and working in the US and having a few dear friend who’re black when a friend here in England asked me are the police that bad, I said in the major cities what I’d seen by and large they were, especially NYC.

However I did point out that some (not all) police are very bad at their jobs and hate everyone, not just blacks.

I believe the officer on murder charges for George Floyd has prior convictions and trouble with the law such as what we in England class ‘perverting the course of justice’ that can range from deliberately tainting evidence, to witness tampering and other things considered very seriously bad. Makes you wonder why they don’t have more stringent laws for serving officers.

Having only witnessed one act of unrest in NYC I can attest that the police there seemed to be wanting something to ‘kick off’ so they could go in and beat people.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Very true, from my experience living and working in the US and having a few dear friend who’re black when a friend here in England asked me are the police that bad, I said in the major cities what I’d seen by and large they were, especially NYC.

However I did point out that some (not all) police are very bad at their jobs and hate everyone, not just blacks.

I believe the officer on murder charges for George Floyd has prior convictions and trouble with the law such as what we in England class ‘perverting the course of justice’ that can range from deliberately tainting evidence, to witness tampering and other things considered very seriously bad. Makes you wonder why they don’t have more stringent laws for serving officers.

Having only witnessed one act of unrest in NYC I can attest that the police there seemed to be wanting something to ‘kick off’ so they could go in and beat people.

One of the areas in desperate need of reform is the hiring of police who have been fired for cause by other police agencies. God knows it's hard enough for a police officer to be fired. If they manage to do something awful enough and well-documented enough to get fired, they need to be permanently out of law enforcement. What's really alarming is that there are police departments that actively recruit these guys. They're deliberately building a force of thugs. Usually racist thugs, because there's nothing a thug enjoys more than a victim they feel they can abuse with impunity.

It would be such a simple thing to fix.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Speaking of after-effects: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/11/health/coronavirus-lung-transplant.html

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Speaking of after-effects: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/11/health/coronavirus-lung-transplant.html

It sounds like her lungs practically dissolved. That's freaking scary. I'm glad the operation was so successful, at least so far. It makes you wonder what the virus does to other tissues.

 

[Black_and_White_Writer]

One of the areas in desperate need of reform is the hiring of police who have been fired for cause by other police agencies. God knows it's hard enough for a police officer to be fired. If they manage to do something awful enough and well-documented enough to get fired, they need to be permanently out of law enforcement. What's really alarming is that there are police departments that actively recruit these guys. They're deliberately building a force of thugs. Usually racist thugs, because there's nothing a thug enjoys more than a victim they feel they can abuse with impunity.

It would be such a simple thing to fix.

I agree, a dear friend of mine who’s a good 16 years my senior said he remembers the Rodney King beatings and says that nothing much has improved, in fact he says it feels like it’s gotten worse, although he says people are better clued up about these things and they also have got camera phones now. I find it amazing that police all don’t have body cams and they cannot shut them off. That has to be an absolute must.

 

[Black_and_White_Writer]

And tear gas is also a respiratory irritant - a couple of protestors have died just from gas exposure - so it may well increase vulnerability to infection via respiratory pathways.

Whoever authorised the use of gas during a pandemic is insane… looks at those responsible, sorry, forgot who I was talking about.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Boy has this been making the rounds... Excuse me while I enjoy a brief moment of pride.

From an article about it:

"To be absolutely sure this wasn’t a failure of imagination on my part, I did my due diligence and reached out to the city health department for clarification. When asked if the above passage was a tacit endorsement of glory holes, Dr. Demetre Daskalakis, Deputy Commissioner for Disease Control and Incident Commander for the Health Department’s COVID-19 response, told Gizmodo (emphasis, again, ours):

'We trust our audience and New Yorkers are creative enough to know what this means.'"

I read recently that the NYC Public Health Department is making home deliveries of lube and condoms. They should be safe from budget cuts for a while!

 

[ChloeTzang]

Whoever authorised the use of gas during a pandemic is insane… looks at those responsible, sorry, forgot who I was talking about.

There’s only so many tools available for controlling riots. Rioters had free choice as to whether they were there or not. Police rather less so, altho to my mind there best choice now is just stand back and watch. If I was a cop I’d be taking a 14 day quarantine about now and going “you deal with it”

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

There’s only so many tools available for controlling riots. Rioters had free choice as to whether they were there or not. Police rather less so, altho to my mind there best choice now is just stand back and watch. If I was a cop I’d be taking a 14 day quarantine about now and going “you deal with it”

You could say the same thing of any protesters from any time, anywhere. I wouldn't want to live in the world we would live in without them.

 

[NotWise]

There’s only so many tools available for controlling riots. Rioters had free choice as to whether they were there or not. Police rather less so, altho to my mind there best choice now is just stand back and watch. If I was a cop I’d be taking a 14 day quarantine about now and going “you deal with it”

There are choices other than tear gas, which may do no more than scatter people out to regroup elsewhere. Sometimes it's better just to watch and direct traffic around the protest.

I don't know how it worked in other places, but the police here met the first Floyd protest with force. It was a completely tone-deaf response. The police proved the point the protesters were trying to make. For the next two days people stood on street corners and sometimes in the middle of the street with anti-police placards, and it probably lead directly to the riot that tore up downtown.

 

[BelleCanzuto]

There are choices other than tear gas, which may do no more than scatter people out to regroup elsewhere. Sometimes it's better just to watch and direct traffic around the protest.

I don't know how it worked in other places, but the police here met the first Floyd protest with force. It was a completely tone-deaf response. The police proved the point the protesters were trying to make. For the next two days people stood on street corners and sometimes in the middle of the street with anti-police placards, and it probably lead directly to the riot that tore up downtown.

I'll have to see if I can find the orignial article, but one thing that struck me about the response in LA the first weekend was that the police were massing and trying to corral the protestors, and completely ignoring the looters and thieves who were systematically breaking in to stores and stealing things by committee. And then the protestors got tagged as starting a riot.

Then, of course the whole Lafayette Square debacle.

In my small city, the first weekend of protesting was met with a stern response, and some were teargasses after someone supposedly threw a firework at the line of police guarding the main station down town. The group of protestors were across the street and, from the video I saw, not attempting to get into the station. But there were a significant number of police. The rest of the week, and the weekends since then, there have still be protests, but no clashes, no violence, and even some dialogue with the new chief of police.

 

[Javahead]

There’s only so many tools available for controlling riots. Rioters had free choice as to whether they were there or not. Police rather less so, altho to my mind there best choice now is just stand back and watch. If I was a cop I’d be taking a 14 day quarantine about now and going “you deal with it”

Even without rioting, COVID-19 is a problem for cops.

Our son in law is a sheriff’s deputy. His county is on the edge of the LA urban area, but they’ve not had problems with riots. But the jail where he’s currently working now has two quarantine wings for COVID-19, and a deputy at one of the other jails died of it.

Apparently, spitting on each other and deputies has become very popular among the inmates - it’s not really assault, right? They’ve been issued N95 masks, wear gloves when they can, and hand sanitizer is everywhere, but our daughter still worries about him.

 

[BelleCanzuto]

Even without rioting, COVID-19 is a problem for cops.

Our son in law is a sheriff’s deputy. His county is on the edge of the LA urban area, but they’ve not had problems with riots. But the jail where he’s currently working now has two quarantine wings for COVID-19, and a deputy at one of the other jails died of it.

Apparently, spitting on each other and deputies has become very popular among the inmates - it’s not really assault, right? They’ve been issued N95 masks, wear gloves when they can, and hand sanitizer is everywhere, but our daughter still worries about him.

Yeah. Jails, prisons, nursing homes, assisted living facilities, congregate care of any kind is really scary. Stuck in onfined spaces all the time, with possibly sketchy ventillation, no ability to physically distance. I hope you s-i-l is able to stay safe.

 

[Black_and_White_Writer]

Yeah. Jails, prisons, nursing homes, assisted living facilities, congregate care of any kind is really scary. Stuck in onfined spaces all the time, with possibly sketchy ventillation, no ability to physically distance. I hope you s-i-l is able to stay safe.

I’m pretty sure they’d regard it as assault and add a few years onto someone’s sentence. As for out and about, well I couldn’t say, but I know it’d be looked upon in a very dim light. As long as your son-in-law is safe that’s what matters.

 

[NotWise]

I'll have to see if I can find the orignial article, but one thing that struck me about the response in LA the first weekend was that the police were massing and trying to corral the protestors, and completely ignoring the looters and thieves who were systematically breaking in to stores and stealing things by committee. And then the protestors got tagged as starting a riot.

Here we had a large and entirely peaceful protest march through downtown in the evening, then the riot started after the protesters left. Even the police have said that the rioters and the protesters were different people.

The riot didn't seem to have anything to do with Floyd, and everything to do with the local police. "Fuck APD" was spray painted everywhere.

Apparently, spitting on each other and deputies has become very popular among the inmates - it’s not really assault, right? They’ve been issued N95 masks, wear gloves when they can, and hand sanitizer is everywhere, but our daughter still worries about him.

I have heard of people being charged with assault for doing things like that.

We have closely associated State and Federal prison facilities in the southern part of the state which together have had about 635 COVID-19 cases. I'm aware of only one death in any of the prison facilities.

At one point, deaths in congregate care facilities (retirement villages, nursing homes) accounted for 40% of all the COVID-19 fatalities in the state. I doubt the number has changed very much. In the state's most populous county (where I live) I think the vast majority of fatalities have been in congregate care facilities. In outlying counties, and especially on the Navajo Nation, the fatalities have effected more of a cross-section of the population.

 

[ChloeTzang]

You could say the same thing of any protesters from any time, anywhere. I wouldn't want to live in the world we would live in without them.

Big difference between protesting and rioting though. Although the Hong Kong police don’t think so.

 

[Black_and_White_Writer]

Big difference between protesting and rioting though. Although the Hong Kong police don’t think so.

One day China won’t be content to be a problem for the Chinese. They are rapidly becoming a nation that the world can ill afford. I nearly choked on my breakfast hearing of them criticising the US under Trump for racism and human rights. The Chinese don’t have any human rights at all.

 

[Javahead]

Big difference between protesting and rioting though. Although the Hong Kong police don’t think so.

A couple of my brothers in law were Hong Kong cops. They’re both glad they were out before this started. Though from what we’ve heard, Hong Kong has its own share of provocateurs - the big question is whose? The Chinese government, trying to destabilize the movement? Some outside group? Local youth who feel permanently disenfranchised?

I don’t know, but lifelong friends quarrel over the answers. No matter what the truth, it’s a more complex situation there than the news stories here can explain.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Big difference between protesting and rioting though. Although the Hong Kong police don’t think so.

Glad you noticed

Of course there's a difference. The problem is who's defining it. The police have reported quite a few protests as "riots," as have certain news outlets. Then the video proved that they weren't riots at all. A riot to me is personal injury, destruction of property, stealing, that sort of thing. They've been calling it rioting when people don't obey the police. That's not a riot in my book. That's civil disobedience. Civil disobedience is how we make changes without being violent.

The other thing that happened, which was well documented, was police starting the violence and then accusing people of rioting. Some of them were itching for it. Naturally, some have been caught posting things that demonstrated that they were planning the violence to begin with. One thing that a number of police departments did was try to shut protests down before curfew arrived. For whatever reason, they weren't willing to wait for curfew. Those protests were perfectly peaceful, but then police started forcibly herding people. They've also been kettling protesters, which they're not supposed to do.

So yeah, riots and protests are two different things and merit different responses, but it's a big mistake to assume people are rioters just because the police say so to justify their use of force. Throughout these protests, police have proven over and over again that many departments cannot be trusted not to use undue force. It doesn't make sense to just take their word for it about whether force was necessary because people were "rioting."

Even when rioting occurs, police don't have to be indiscriminate. When you have some people exercising their rights and some people doing something illegal, the answer is not to attack everybody.

Edit: Totally agree about Hong Kong, but I'm not so sure it's their local cops who see it that way. At least not to the full extent of mainland China. I read not long ago that they sent a bunch of troops/agents (I was unclear which) to Hong Kong, and then shortly after that, they announced that new, oppressive legislation. Not good.

 

[NotWise]

Of course there's a difference. The problem is who's defining it. The police have reported quite a few protests as "riots," as have certain news outlets. Then the video proved that they weren't riots at all. A riot to me is personal injury, destruction of property, stealing, that sort of thing. They've been calling it rioting when people don't obey the police. That's not a riot in my book. That's civil disobedience. Civil disobedience is how we make changes without being violent.

I think you can find any number of riots in US history that started as demonstrations and became riots in response to police action. The riots at the Democratic National Convention in 1968 are probably an example.

The line between a protest and a riot is that fine. That why, back in the early '50's, the Civil Rights movement taught classes on how to do it Ghandi's way. It doesn't come naturally for most people, but it works. When Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat on the bus, it wasn't just because she was tired. She'd been to a class like that in Tennessee a few days earlier.

She knew what to do, and look what happened.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I think you can find any number of riots in US history that started as demonstrations and became riots in response to police action. The riots at the Democratic National Convention in 1968 are probably an example.

The line between a protest and a riot is that fine. That why, back in the early '50's, the Civil Rights movement taught classes on how to do it Ghandi's way. It doesn't come naturally for most people, but it works. When Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat on the bus, it wasn't just because she was tired. She'd been to a class like that in Tennessee a few days earlier.

She knew what to do, and look what happened.

I agree with that. I just don't think that police should be allowed to use the riot they started as justification for using force. I think the methods taught by civil rights organizers were very effective. The thing is, though, they had to be that pacific out of fear for their lives. They shouldn't have had to do that. As long as people are obeying the law, they shouldn't have to fear police. Just because people aren't demonstrating in what may be the ideal way doesn't mean they've exceeded their rights.

I'm also not sure how well the methods used by civil rights demonstrators back then would work today. Could Rosa Parks do now what she did then and get the same result? There have been numerous mass protests in this country over police brutality against black people, but it seems like it takes riots to get attention. That doesn't excuse rioting, but I think it's a good reason to suspect that going home just because the police say go home isn't going to get you anywhere. It's a complicated issue, but one thing I keep coming back to is that the protesters are amateurs. The police are professionals, or they're supposed to be. It's their job to know how to respond appropriately, even if citizens don't always recognize the boundaries.

There's also been mild to moderate violence by police towards people who were following civil rights-era methods. They were just sitting or standing waiting to be arrested, and they still got roughed up and had phones smashed or taken from them. They've done it to journalists, too, even while they were filming. And think about that poor old guy they pushed and left bleeding on the pavement.

I think when police are intent on being violent, there's not really any method that's going to assure safety.

 

[NotWise]

I agree with that. I just don't think that police should be allowed to use the riot they started as justification for using force. I think the methods taught by civil rights organizers were very effective. [bold]The thing is, though, they had to be that pacific out of fear for their lives.[/bold] They shouldn't have had to do that. As long as people are obeying the law, they shouldn't have to fear police. Just because people aren't demonstrating in what may be the ideal way doesn't mean they've exceeded their rights.

They had to be that passive despite the fear for their lives. Pacifism didn't stop them from being brutally attacked, and they knew it. I crossed the Edmund Pettus bridge in Selma, where the State Police on Bloody Sunday used attack dogs and clubs on peaceful marchers, many of whom were mothers and fathers who wanted a better life for their kids.

Freedom riders? They were arrested all across the south and attacked in Anniston, Alabama. When they reached Montgomery they were attacked by the KKK in a bus barn while the State Police watched. The bus station is still there as a monument, but the barn is gone. They didn't stop. They filled the jails in Mississippi before they got through to New Orleans.

I'm also not sure how well the methods used by civil rights demonstrators back then would work today. Could Rosa Parks do now what she did then and get the same result? There have been numerous mass protests in this country over police brutality against black people, but it seems like it takes riots to get attention. That doesn't excuse rioting, but I think it's a good reason to suspect that going home just because the police say go home isn't going to get you anywhere. It's a complicated issue, but one thing I keep coming back to is that the protesters are amateurs. The police are professionals, or they're supposed to be. It's their job to know how to respond appropriately, even if citizens don't always recognize the boundaries.

There's no reason why it couldn't work today, but it takes real guts to stand up to a police attack. It takes teaching and organization. It isn't accidental, but now there isn't a movement that's organized enough to do it.

There's also been mild to moderate violence by police towards people who were following civil rights-era methods. They were just sitting or standing waiting to be arrested, and they still got roughed up and had phones smashed or taken from them. They've done it to journalists, too, even while they were filming. And think about that poor old guy they pushed and left bleeding on the pavement.

I think when police are intent on being violent, there's not really any method that's going to assure safety.

The civil rights protesters got worse than what's handed out today, but they knew they would and they stood up to it. In the case of Black Live Matter, police response to passive resistance would prove their point, but they don't have the organization and training that they had in the Civil Rights movement.