Demonizing sex workers

[SimonDoom]

The question to ask, IMO, is whether you'd recommend a prostitution career to your daughter, or say, little sister.
Whether you'd tell them that prostitution is not worse than, say, managing a fast food restaurant.

If you tell them, yes, prostitution is a fine career choice, then you may ask others why don't they think the same.
If you tell them no, prostitution is NOT a fine career choice, then you have your answer.

This is a provocative and interesting way to frame the issue, and I agree it has a lot of power, but I don't think it quite "seals the deal." I am generally very libertarian on these issues, i.e., a woman should have total sexual control over her body, which means freedom to engage in prostitution or pornography. I also attach no moral disapproval, personally, to either of these things. So I recognize I'm biased. But I've asked myself, would I advise my daughter that it's OK to do these things?

I recall an interview with Hustler founder Larry Flynt in which he was asked a similar question regarding his own daughter, and he said, no, he wouldn't recommend it, because it can be a tough life. But the issue then is whether it's an INHERENTLY difficult career choice or whether it's a difficult career choice because of centuries and centuries of controlling women's sexuality in many ways and attaching stigmas to women being sexual. I'm inclined to think it's the latter. My inclination is to think that nothing is inherently anything. It's possible that we could create a world in which sex work is just something that people do and we could eradicate the seediness and harm that accompanies it if we chose to--or, at least, we could eradicate the harm so it's no different from harm that's found in any profession.

Would I morally disapprove of my daughter if I found out she had an OnlyFans page, or found out she was doing work as an escort? I would not. As a father I would be very concerned about whether her choices might negatively affect her status in society or her job prospects, but that's because of the way society looks at these things rather than the inherent morality of them. My concern for my daughter's choice would be prudential, not moral. My prudential concern would also be contingent--contingent on her maturity and judgment in navigating her way through these activities without undue risk of harm to herself, and contingent upon the kind of world that exists around her, one that we don't necessarily have to accept.

I admit as a parent these are tough and uncomfortable issues. It's hard to be honest about these things as a parent because you worry about your kids making choices that will hurt them. But if I'm going to take a sex-positive position in my stories and in my comments then I figure I have to be consistent about it.

 

[EmilyMiller]

The question to ask, IMO, is whether you'd recommend a prostitution career to your daughter, or say, little sister.
Whether you'd tell them that prostitution is not worse than, say, managing a fast food restaurant.

If you tell them, yes, prostitution is a fine career choice, then you may ask others why don't they think the same.
If you tell them no, prostitution is NOT a fine career choice, then you have your answer.

I think sex work should be career like any other. I acknowledge that for many it currently isn’t. I think sex workers are people and demand our respect and understanding.

I would love to see the same employment and health and safety protections extended to sex workers as to other professions.

They should pay tax and have medical insurance.

There is a whole spectrum of sex work, ranging from the coerced and exploited to the in control and empowered. I’d like to see that spectrum shift towards the in control end.

If I had a daughter (some way off) and she decided of her own free will that being a sex worker was what she wanted to do, then I hope that I’d do my best to support and understand her. I’d certainly still love her.

I wouldn’t view her as less than human as some here seem to.

Emily

 

[VerbalAbuse]

This is a provocative and interesting way to frame the issue, and I agree it has a lot of power, but I don't think it quite "seals the deal." I am generally very libertarian on these issues, i.e., a woman should have total sexual control over her body, which means freedom to engage in prostitution or pornography. I also attach no moral disapproval, personally, to either of these things. So I recognize I'm biased. But I've asked myself, would I advise my daughter that it's OK to do these things?

I recall an interview with Hustler founder Larry Flynt in which he was asked a similar question regarding his own daughter, and he said, no, he wouldn't recommend it, because it can be a tough life. But the issue then is whether it's an INHERENTLY difficult career choice or whether it's a difficult career choice because of centuries and centuries of controlling women's sexuality in many ways and attaching stigmas to women being sexual. I'm inclined to think it's the latter. My inclination is to think that nothing is inherently anything. It's possible that we could create a world in which sex work is just something that people do and we could eradicate the seediness and harm that accompanies it if we chose to--or, at least, we could eradicate the harm so it's no different from harm that's found in any profession.

Would I morally disapprove of my daughter if I found out she had an OnlyFans page, or found out she was doing work as an escort? I would not. As a father I would be very concerned about whether her choices might negatively affect her status in society or her job prospects, but that's because of the way society looks at these things rather than the inherent morality of them. My concern for my daughter's choice would be prudential, not moral. My prudential concern would also be contingent--contingent on her maturity and judgment in navigating her way through these activities without undue risk of harm to herself, and contingent upon the kind of world that exists around her, one that we don't necessarily have to accept.

I admit as a parent these are tough and uncomfortable issues. It's hard to be honest about these things as a parent because you worry about your kids making choices that will hurt them. But if I'm going to take a sex-positive position in my stories and in my comments then I figure I have to be consistent about it.

Assume the real word -- the world in which you live today.

Why if nothing very bad happens to her? She quits after some years.

Then she finds a man to marry. That man finds out about her whoring days, and he changes his mind about the whole affair. Wedding is off!

Or maybe she becomes a known public figure. Then the public finds out. Career over!

 

[EmilyMiller]

Apropos of nothing, I think the probability - on a sex site filled with lonely guys - that at least a significant minority of members have visited a sex worker is high.

I can’t align this with the stigma associated with the [normally] women. Such stigma should apply to sex worker AND client, or - better IMO - to neither.

Emily

 

[EmilyMiller]

Then she finds a man to marry. That man finds out about her whoring days, and he changes his mind about the whole affair. Wedding is off!

Then he never loved her in the first place, lucky escape for her.

Emily

 

[Duleigh]

Ahh, a flip of the script...very savvy. Sadly though, far from the truth

Give me a freaking break. Your well honed "knowledge" of the world refuses to conceive of men who are against Pimps kidnapping little girls, pumping them full of drugs, raping them, beating them, putting them on the street in danger of disease, pregnancy, assault, then take their money from them and kick them back out on the street. You refuse to believe that there are good men out there who deplore the pathetic Johns who use and abuse these women. Instead you come up with your holier than thou mouth full of dogshit because you cannot conceive of someone with morals and values that were not approved by you in you high and holy throne.

 

[SimonDoom]

Assume the real word -- the world in which you live today.

Why if nothing very bad happens to her? She quits after some years.

Then she finds a man to marry. That man finds out about her whoring days, and he changes his mind about the whole affair. Wedding is off!

Or maybe she becomes a known public figure. Then the public finds out. Career over!

I'd repose the question you're raising this way. If my daughter told me she wanted to make it her life's goal to climb all of the world's tallest mountains, I'd be scared shitless for her, because the risk of dying is extremely high. Something like 10% of people who try to climb K-2 die. If you do it long enough, the odds of dying from it are extremely high.

I would be much more scared of my daughter being a big mountain climber than being an escort or a porn star. And as far as the stigma, my hope would be that she would think long and hard about it and make sure that SHE was satisfied with her calculation of the risk that it might harm her life. No doubt her participation in those activities would disqualify her from consideration as "wife material' in the eyes of some men. But that's true of all kinds of sexual activities. There are men who don't want to marry women who've had more than a certain number of lovers (or ANY previous lovers--some men want virgins), or who've had interracial sex, or who've had sex with more than one man at a time. I don't share those values, so I would never tell my daughter, "You must never do what many men disapprove of," and I wouldn't tell her, "I disapprove of your consensual, free choices about handling your own sexuality." I would still love her and support her as much as I can, despite my possible concerns.

 

[SimonDoom]

Apropos of nothing, I think the probability - on a sex site filled with lonely guys - that at least a significant minority of members have visited a sex worker is high.

Could be. I've never visited a sex worker, but I did date a woman for a while who earlier in her life had been a sex worker. She told me after we'd been dating a while. It was interesting, because it forced me to confront the question Verbalabuse raises: how would I feel if a woman close to me told me she'd done that? Would I disapprove, or feel disgusted? She was afraid I would break up with her when she told me. As it turned out I was OK with it.

I can’t align this with the stigma associated with the [normally] women. Such stigma should apply to sex worker AND client, or - better IMO - to neither.

Emily

I totally agree with you, but you've got centuries of double standards to overcome. We're chipping away at them, but it's a slow process.

 

[KeithD]

Most of my stories have a sex worker as a protagonist. Seems to work OK for me.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Apropos of nothing, I think the probability - on a sex site filled with lonely guys - that at least a significant minority of members have visited a sex worker is high.

I can’t align this with the stigma associated with the [normally] women. Such stigma should apply to sex worker AND client, or - better IMO - to neither.

Emily

OK, what the hell.

I have at various times in my life regularly visited sex workers.

(Anybody) Feel free to ask me anything.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Apropos of nothing, I think the probability - on a sex site filled with lonely guys - that at least a significant minority of members have visited a sex worker is high.

I can’t align this with the stigma associated with the [normally] women. Such stigma should apply to sex worker AND client, or - better IMO - to neither.

Emily

I think there is a negative stigma associated with Johns in society.
They are losers/freaks/weirdos who can't get laid without paying for it...etc...etc...

I probably wouldn't date a guy who made a hobby of traveling to Amsterdam, Thailand, and the various other areas as a "sex tourist".

 

[StillStunned]

I probably wouldn't date a guy who made a hobby of traveling to Amsterdam, Thailand, and the various other areas as a "sex tourist".

I've never been to Thailand, but from what I've seen of Amsterdam, the sex workers there aren't worth travelling half way around the world for.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Apropos of nothing, I think the probability - on a sex site filled with lonely guys - that at least a significant minority of members have visited a sex worker is high.

I can’t align this with the stigma associated with the [normally] women. Such stigma should apply to sex worker AND client, or - better IMO - to neither.

Emily

You are not taking into account that a substantial portion of clients hold the sex workers they patronize with contempt.

 

[JJ82490]

Give me a freaking break. Your well honed "knowledge" of the world refuses to conceive of men who are against Pimps kidnapping little girls, pumping them full of drugs, raping them, beating them, putting them on the street in danger of disease, pregnancy, assault, then take their money from them and kick them back out on the street. You refuse to believe that there are good men out there who deplore the pathetic Johns who use and abuse these women. Instead you come up with your holier than thou mouth full of dogshit because you cannot conceive of someone with morals and values that were not approved by you in you high and holy throne.

I will keep this short as I can as I have quite literally no desire to get into an online fight with someone who I know nothing about and who knows nothing about me. At no point did I make any mention of the above . I was simply commenting on the hypocrisy that tends to be present in those that are quick to, as the thread suggests, demonize sex workers. Did I have to make it as cutting a remark as I did? Probably not. I am not in favor in any way, shape or form, of what you mentioned - you are talking about abuse in so many different forms, none of which are okay nor do I advocate for. I will also assert that those that seek out sex workers (clients) should not be demonized either.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I'll be honest and say that while I certainly don't demonize sex workers, I also don't hold them in high esteem, although not due to any porn-related moralizing.
I might be totally clueless here, but it seems to me that their choice to get into sex work is often based on their (probably flawed) perception that it's a quick way to earn money, one that doesn't require education or much effort. It's hard to have much respect for people who think like that. It's a way of exploiting your "talent", one you haven't earned in any way but were simply born with - your looks (or cock size for men). Literally every other talent has to be honed and cultivated to bear fruit. Intelligence requires education to make something of it. Artistic talent also requires education and practice. Sports talent requires devoting your life to it, etc.
There are likely cases of women being forced into such "careers" and I can only sympathize with them wholeheartedly, but somehow I don't think those cases are a majority. Again, it's an impression only; I don't really have any numbers here.

So yeah, while I dislike moralizing very much and I wouldn't ever dismiss sex workers from that angle, I can't say that I respect their character for the reasons I described above. That being said, I was always mildly disdainful of people who use hookers and escorts, and once again, not due to any moralizing reasons but because it goes against my view of passion and sex. Paying for it would kill all the thrill in me.

 

[EmilyMiller]

You are not taking into account that a substantial portion of clients hold the sex workers they patronize with contempt.

It’s projection of self-loathing I guess. And just plain misogyny.

Emily

 

[SimonDoom]

I'll be honest and say that while I certainly don't demonize sex workers, I also don't hold them in high esteem, although not due to any porn-related moralizing.
I might be totally clueless here, but it seems to me that their choice to get into sex work is often based on their (probably flawed) perception that it's a quick way to earn money, one that doesn't require education or much effort. It's hard to have much respect for people who think like that. It's a way of exploiting your "talent", one you haven't earned in any way but were simply born with - your looks (or cock size for men). Literally every other talent has to be honed and cultivated to bear fruit. Intelligence requires education to make something of it. Artistic talent also requires education and practice. Sports talent requires devoting your life to it, etc.
There are likely cases of women being forced into such "careers" and I can only sympathize with them wholeheartedly, but somehow I don't think those cases are a majority. Again, it's an impression only; I don't really have any numbers here.

So yeah, while I dislike moralizing very much and I wouldn't ever dismiss sex workers from that angle, I can't say that I respect their character for the reasons I described above. That being said, I was always mildly disdainful of people who use hookers and escorts, and once again, not due to any moralizing reasons but because it goes against my view of passion and sex. Paying for it would kill all the thrill in me.

I'm a little puzzled by this. Why would you look down on someone who takes advantage of having a "talent" that they can exploit and profit from without too much effort? Would you look down on a fashion model, someone who is born beautiful, for making money because she's beautiful?

I'm also not completely sure how different sex work is from other work. Natural talent plays a role, but it plays a role in any profession. Hard work, I imagine, can play a role as well. Being "good" at sex, or at modeling, or at performing on camera, isn't something that just comes naturally, even if one is born with good looks. Some people are naturally more athletically gifted than others. They can show up on a playing field and outrun other people, or throw footballs more accurately and farther. It doesn't seem to me like something to look down on.

 

[VerbalAbuse]

Could be. I've never visited a sex worker, but I did date a woman for a while who earlier in her life had been a sex worker. She told me after we'd been dating a while. It was interesting, because it forced me to confront the question Verbalabuse raises: how would I feel if a woman close to me told me she'd done that? Would I disapprove, or feel disgusted? She was afraid I would break up with her when she told me. As it turned out I was OK with it.



I totally agree with you, but you've got centuries of double standards to overcome. We're chipping away at them, but it's a slow process.

The question I asked (as opposed to the question you had in mind) was: Would you encourage your daughter to take up prostitution? That's the question, not what you said it was.

"Daddy, daddy, should I become a doctor?"

"Yes, sweetie."

"Daddy, daddy, should I become a lawyer?"

"Yes, sweetie."

"Daddy, daddy, should I become an engineer?"

"Yes, sweetie."

"Daddy, daddy, should I become a whore?"

>> fill in your answer.

 

[Mike130]

My fiftieth story is about a sex worker. A sex worker who is married (apparently happily) and has a young child.

Now I posted it in LW. I wasn’t expecting a rating of 5 ️ and universal acclaim (as ever, the majority of people were kind, even the anon ones).

But this isn’t a whinge about this. It about comments like “no man would let his wife do that” and “no man would marry a whore” and “what do they tell the child about her disgusting work?”

There was (as maybe is to be suspected) condemnation of the woman and (as it’s LW) her husband. But none for the clients.

Is this odd on a sex site? Or are sex workers not human beings too?

Em

PS This isn’t really about my story (hence no link) it’s about attitudes to prostitution on Literotica

It’s odd that people would say “No man would marry a whore” when many people’s fantasies on this site (including my own) would be to see their wife with another man.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Would you look down on a fashion model, someone who is born beautiful, for making money because she's beautiful?

A bit, yes.
It might seem irrational, but to me, it feels like cheating in a sense. The idea that you can be just given something and then profit from it with zero effort grates on my sense of right and wrong. I mean, I know that life is unfair and that we are all dealt a good or a bad hand at birth, but it should never be so that it takes no effort whatsoever to profit from that hand. I know it is not really a rational view but I can't help thinking so.

 

[EmilyMiller]

It’s odd that people would say “No man would marry a whore” when many people’s fantasies on this site (including my own) would be to see their wife with another man.

Humans aren’t terribly consistent.

Guys do marry whores. Some retired, some still active. Love is love.

Emily

 

[EmilyMiller]

A bit, yes.
It might seem irrational, but to me, it feels like cheating in a sense. The idea that you can be just given something and then profit from it with zero effort grates on my sense of right and wrong. I mean, I know that life is unfair and that we are all dealt a good or a bad hand at birth, but it should never be so that it takes no effort whatsoever to profit from that hand. I know it is not really a rational view but I can't help it.

So what about someone who is born with high intelligence? Would you also look down on them?

Emily

 

[EmilyMiller]

The question I asked (as opposed to the question you had in mind) was: Would you encourage your daughter to take up prostitution? That's the question, not what you said it was.

"Daddy, daddy, should I become a doctor?"

"Yes, sweetie."

"Daddy, daddy, should I become a lawyer?"

"Yes, sweetie."

"Daddy, daddy, should I become an engineer?"

"Yes, sweetie."

"Daddy, daddy, should I become a whore?"

>> fill in your answer.

Your view is entirely predicated on there being something wrong with being a sex worker.

We can agree that being a trafficked, coerced and controlled sex worker is wrong, like any type of slavery.

But I don’t accept your view that sex work is inherently wrong.

Emily

 

[AwkwardlySet]

So what about someone who is born with high intelligence? Would you also look down on them?

Emily

Read the previous post, the answer is there.

 

[AlinaX]

I've never been to Thailand, but from what I've seen of Amsterdam, the sex workers there aren't worth travelling half way around the world for.

Is there anywhere you would recommend?

I have actually been to Thailand, but while I don't have anything to say from experience about the sex workers there, I've read that there are many men who happily send their wives out to earn money.