Demonizing sex workers

[Yesok1]

Or when she got pregnant at eighteen, the baby daddy ghosted her and her parents threw her out of the house. She and the baby couch surfed with friends until she managed to get a subsidized apartment and food stamps. But food stamps won't pay for diapers or shampoo or dish soap. She found a part time minimum wage job. She couldn't take anything better because then she would lose her benefits.

The kid's got a bad cough and needs to see a doctor. The bus fares to get to work just went up. She has to walk home so she'll have enough money for cough medicine. It's November and she doesn't have a winter coat.

When a car pulls up and a guy offers her twenty bucks if she will suck his dick and she gets in, it's not because she's greedy or lazy.

Exactly!

 

[DrPope]

Obviously a made-up story. A commission actually. Though I did a little research (from the POV of the girl), as I explain in The Writing of A Hard Day’s Night.

Emily

Some of the most normal people with normal boring even pedestrian lives I have ever met are sex workers. As I said ...highly commended.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Or when she got pregnant at eighteen, the baby daddy ghosted her and her parents threw her out of the house. She and the baby couch surfed with friends until she managed to get a subsidized apartment and food stamps. But food stamps won't pay for diapers or shampoo or dish soap. She found a part time minimum wage job. She couldn't take anything better because then she would lose her benefits.

The kid's got a bad cough and needs to see a doctor. The bus fares to get to work just went up. She has to walk home so she'll have enough money for cough medicine. It's November and she doesn't have a winter coat.

When a car pulls up and a guy offers her twenty bucks if she will suck his dick and she gets in, it's not because she's greedy or lazy.

Yeah, that's one situation, and I already said there are cases when one is forced to resort to sex work, either financially or even physically coerced by some pimp. I also said I have nothing but wholehearted sympathy for such cases. My impression, which of course could be wrong, was that such cases aren't a majority. I also said I don't really have the numbers, I am just speaking out of my own perception. If you have the numbers, I would be very much obliged.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I think it’s a really bad idea to make assumptions about what motivates [mostly] women to do sex work.

Taking to one side the undeniable dark side of coercion and drug dependency, the issue with someone selling their body for sex, versus selling their time for - say - accounting, is that people view sex as inherently different. This is where “morality” comes in.

It’s not unrelated to the “morality” that girls should be “pure” for their (most likely impure) husbands. Or that only sex in marriage is smiled on by the deity.

If you take the view that sex is just as much a valid human activity as producing a trial balance, then why is it inherently wrong to sell it?

People sell themselves all the time. That’s what employment is.

Emily

 

[MelissaBaby]

Yeah, that's one situation, and I already said there are cases when one is forced to resort to sex work, either financially or even physically coerced by some pimp. I also said I have nothing but wholehearted sympathy for such cases. My impression, which of course could be wrong, was that such cases aren't a majority. I also said I don't really have the numbers, I am just speaking out of my own perception. If you have the numbers, I would be very much obliged.

I'm sorry, I can't give you numbers. But I can tell you from my experience as a sex worker, an incarcerated person and a social worker, such scenarios are very common.

 

[SimonDoom]

Yeah, that's one situation, and I already said there are cases when one is forced to resort to sex work, either financially or even physically coerced by some pimp. I also said I have nothing but wholehearted sympathy for such cases. My impression, which of course could be wrong, was that such cases aren't a majority. I also said I don't really have the numbers, I am just speaking out of my own perception. If you have the numbers, I would be very much obliged.

Serious question: why do the numbers matter? What does it matter whether a majority of people undertake sex work for this or that reason? I think we can safely assume that people undertake it for a variety of reasons.
Let's assume the most extreme, unencumbered case. An intelligent woman with a degree and a good job decides that she can make money from being a sex worker because she's attractive and she thinks she's good at sex. She does. She succeeds and makes money. Do you believe that you have grounds for judging her negatively for doing so? Why? What if she likes it, and her clients like it, too? Who has suffered? What wrong has been done?

 

[EmilyMiller]

Serious question: why do the numbers matter? What does it matter whether a majority of people undertake sex work for this or that reason? I think we can safely assume that people undertake it for a variety of reasons.
Let's assume the most extreme, unencumbered case. An intelligent woman with a degree and a good job decides that she can make money from being a sex worker because she's attractive and she thinks she's good at sex. She does. She succeeds and makes money. Do you believe that you have grounds for judging her negatively for doing so? Why? What if she likes it, and her clients like it, too? Who has suffered? What wrong has been done?

This

The argument made is that the life of some sex workers is unremittingly awful. Yes of course it is.

But, this is not the same as saying that being a sex worker is wrong.

Child labor in a developing world sweat shop feels wrong too. Does it mean an adult working in a factory in Indiana is wrong?

I would argue that one (just one) reason that so many sex workers are abused slaves living in misery is precisely because of what passes for morality.

Emily

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Serious question: why do the numbers matter? What does it matter whether a majority of people undertake sex work for this or that reason? I think we can safely assume that people undertake it for a variety of reasons.
Let's assume the most extreme, unencumbered case. An intelligent woman with a degree and a good job decides that she can make money from being a sex worker because she's attractive and she thinks she's good at sex. She does. She succeeds and makes money. Do you believe that you have grounds for judging her negatively for doing so? Why? What if she likes it, and her clients like it, too? Who has suffered? What wrong has been done?

Sometimes I get the impression that you don't read my replies at all before you write your own reply. I already said that my position isn't really rational, yet you keep insisting on a rational reason. Well, I have none. My position is based mostly on the fact that sex work, modeling, and such are heavily based on looks, something we simply get at birth, and unlike other talents, it doesn't require almost any work and dedication before you can profit from it financially and many times you can profit from it much more than from some other talents that do require a lot of effort and work. I see it all the time and as I said, it grates on my personal sense of right and wrong, that's all.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Sometimes I get the impression that you don't read my replies at all before you write your own reply. I already said that my position isn't really rational, yet you keep insisting on a rational reason. Well, I have none. My position is based mostly on the fact that sex work, modeling, and such are heavily based on looks, something we simply get at birth, and unlike other talents, it doesn't require almost any work and dedication before you can profit from it financially and many times you can profit from it much more than from some other talents that do require a lot of effort and work. I see it all the time and as I said, it grates on my personal sense of right and wrong, that's all.

You've not driven through the tough end of town, then.

I'd say the street scenario Melissa describes is going to be far more common than the one grand a night call girl with the stunning looks.

 

[SimonDoom]

Sometimes I get the impression that you don't read my replies at all before you write your own reply. I already said that my position isn't really rational, yet you keep insisting on a rational reason. Well, I have none. My position is based mostly on the fact that sex work, modeling, and such are heavily based on looks, something we simply get at birth, and unlike other talents, it doesn't require almost any work and dedication before you can profit from it financially and many times you can profit from it much more than from some other talents that do require a lot of effort and work. I see it all the time and as I said, it grates on my personal sense of right and wrong, that's all.

If we don't have a "rational reason," then we don't really have a basis for any conversation, do we? All we get is you saying "Blue" and me saying "Green." That's boring and meaningless. I ask questions to explore people's assumptions. You've obviously thought about this and I'm trying to engage. If your fallback is simply, "This is what I feel and that's that," then OK, there's nothing further to discuss. But that seems lazy to me.

I challenged you on your assumption that sex work "doesn't require almost any work and dedication" and you don't seem to really have a factual basis for believing that. There's a saying: you are entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts. Facts are facts. I suspect this factual assumption is wrong. It's something worth exploring and discussing, anyway.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Offhand, I can only think of two societies that have put prostitutes on a pedestal. Ancient Greece (perhaps other ancient societies as well) and Hindu culture prior to the 20th century.

In modern times, regardless of legality, sex workers are, at best, considered 2nd class citizens. More often than not, they are considered the dregs of society. This isn't the workers' fault, but it's the nature of things. One of the ways pimps train girls is continuous rape until they lose any shred of dignity. This is an especially popular system to use on younger girls. I can't speak to where prostitution is legal. I can't moralize about how they should be viewed by society in those countries. But I do know, no boy wants to tell his mother my new girlfriend is whore, no matter where they live.

Until society accepts that a boy can proudly say she sucked 20 dicks last night, Mom, and mine was the only one she did for free. Don't tell me they are treated the same as everyone else.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

If we don't have a "rational reason," then we don't really have a basis for any conversation, do we? All we get is you saying "Blue" and me saying "Green." That's boring and meaningless. I ask questions to explore people's assumptions. You've obviously thought about this and I'm trying to engage. If your fallback is simply, "This is what I feel and that's that," then OK, there's nothing further to discuss. But that seems lazy to me.

I challenged you on your assumption that sex work "doesn't require almost any work and dedication" and you don't seem to really have a factual basis for believing that. There's a saying: you are entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts. Facts are facts. I suspect this factual assumption is wrong. It's something worth exploring and discussing, anyway.

I'm curious, what's your basis for the assertion that sex work does require hard work and dedication?
Do you really feel that Martha is a more successful prostitute because she puts more effort and practice into her $20 blow job than Becky does?

There are some pretty inconsistent arguments flying around here.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

If we don't have a "rational reason," then we don't really have a basis for any conversation, do we? All we get is you saying "Blue" and me saying "Green." That's boring and meaningless. I ask questions to explore people's assumptions. You've obviously thought about this and I'm trying to engage. If your fallback is simply, "This is what I feel and that's that," then OK, there's nothing further to discuss. But that seems lazy to me.

I challenged you on your assumption that sex work "doesn't require almost any work and dedication" and you don't seem to really have a factual basis for believing that. There's a saying: you are entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts. Facts are facts. I suspect this factual assumption is wrong. It's something worth exploring and discussing, anyway.

But there are no facts here, Simon. We are all talking about impressions, our own personal experiences, and such. You have the impression that my impression is wrong about sex work not requiring any effort and dedication in the sense of investment before you can actually go for it. I believe your impression of my impression is wrong, and I am not just making a pun here; I honestly do believe that looks are good enough on their own.
I am not sure what else I can say about this unless we present some meaningful numbers and that was my point all along. Saying I know of a girl who did this and I know of a woman who managed to do that as a sex worker doesn't really mean much as those are just singular cases with unknown occurrences. To be able to actually discuss meaningfully about these things, I believe some numbers and percentages are needed.

 

[MillieDynamite]

In America it, all to often, requires dope and booze.

I'm curious, what's your basis for the assertion that sex work does require hard work and dedication?
Do you really feel that Martha is a more successful prostitute because she puts more effort and practice into her $20 blow job than Becky does?

There are some pretty inconsistent arguments flying around here.

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm curious, what's your basis for the assertion that sex work does require hard work and dedication?
Do you really feel that Martha is a more successful prostitute because she puts more effort and practice into her $20 blow job than Becky does?

There are some pretty inconsistent arguments flying around here.

I didn't make that assertion. I don't know. I don't know enough about sex work to make an assertion one way or another.

What I question is whether sex work is different from any other kind of work. I assume, tentatively, that "success" in sex work, as with almost any kind of job, is the product of a combination of inherited talents and developed skills.

My antenna go up when I'm participating in a forum with people who write erotic stories and assumptions are being made that sexual activity is somehow categorically different from, or morally inferior to, other kinds of activities. It's something I like to challenge. I don't pretend I have all the answers.

 

[djrip]

Sometimes I get the impression that you don't read my replies at all before you write your own reply. I already said that my position isn't really rational, yet you keep insisting on a rational reason. Well, I have none. My position is based mostly on the fact that sex work, modeling, and such are heavily based on looks, something we simply get at birth, and unlike other talents, it doesn't require almost any work and dedication before you can profit from it financially and many times you can profit from it much more than from some other talents that do require a lot of effort and work. I see it all the time and as I said, it grates on my personal sense of right and wrong, that's all.

My sense is that modeling is a lot of exhausting work. And certainly prostitution involves doing very physical work with your body which may potentially be very unpleasant. It may be the case that inborn beauty helps with these jobs. Inborn intelligence helps with programming or lawyering as well. But in all cases once your inborn qualities make it possible for you to do the work, you still have to then do the actual work. I'm not about to spend 16 hours shivering in frigid waves to be a model, or sleep with dozens of possibly abusive strangers to be a prostitute, no matter how good I look, because the work seems daunting. And then there's the fact that both jobs require skills in addition to beauty and willingness to do the work - I've watched enough Tyra and Ru Paul to know you have to know how to work the camera, and that's not automatic. And a prostitute needs to be a kind of actor to make clients feel like she likes them.

Taking to one side the undeniable dark side of coercion and drug dependency, the issue with someone selling their body for sex, versus selling their time for - say - accounting, is that people view sex as inherently different. This is where “morality” comes in.

It’s not unrelated to the “morality” that girls should be “pure” for their (most likely impure) husbands. Or that only sex in marriage is smiled on by the deity.

If you take the view that sex is just as much a valid human activity as producing a trial balance, then why is it inherently wrong to sell it?

I certainly don't think it's inherently wrong to sell sex. But just take money out of the equation for a second. Few spouses will have a problem with their partner doing some accounting, for free, for a friend. Many will have a problem with their partner having sex, for free, with a friend. It's not that selling sex is immoral, it's that sex is usually not seen as something to do with just anyone. A single person can unilaterally decide they don't care about that, and pursue sex work as they like. A person in a relationship who does so either does so secretly or against their partner's wishes or with their partner's consent. You don't need your partner's approval to be an accountant, and it's a big red flag if they think you do. But you do need their approval to be a prostitute, if you want to do so ethically, not because sex work is immoral, but because having sex outside a relationship is only ethical if the partner knows and agrees, or has agreed to a don't ask don't tell arrangement or something like that.

 

[EmilyMiller]

My antenna go up when I'm participating in a forum with people who write erotic stories and assumptions are being made that sexual activity is somehow categorically different from, or morally inferior to, other kinds of activities.

This is the crux of the matter. The reason that sex is treated differently from other activities is “morality.”

When you strip away millennia of what people have decided is good for us (and told us that deities will be angry if we stray from the path), then there is no reason why sex should be any different to other things that people do.

Emily

 

[Yesok1]

I think sex work is becoming more acceptable.

Onlyfans sex workers are now being paid for cross over boxing. They have sex on film and knock another girl out with a few punches.

I believe that prostitution is frowned upon because you don't see z list slebs becoming prostitutes, but you do hear about them selling their smalls.

 

[EmilyMiller]

My sense is that modeling is a lot of exhausting work. And certainly prostitution involves doing very physical work with your body which may potentially be very unpleasant. It may be the case that inborn beauty helps with these jobs. Inborn intelligence helps with programming or lawyering as well. But in all cases once your inborn qualities make it possible for you to do the work, you still have to then do the actual work. I'm not about to spend 16 hours shivering in frigid waves to be a model, or sleep with dozens of possibly abusive strangers to be a prostitute, no matter how good I look, because the work seems daunting. And then there's the fact that both jobs require skills in addition to beauty and willingness to do the work - I've watched enough Tyra and Ru Paul to know you have to know how to work the camera, and that's not automatic. And a prostitute needs to be a kind of actor to make clients feel like she likes them.

I certainly don't think it's inherently wrong to sell sex. But just take money out of the equation for a second. Few spouses will have a problem with their partner doing some accounting, for free, for a friend. Many will have a problem with their partner having sex, for free, with a friend. It's not that selling sex is immoral, it's that sex is usually not seen as something to do with just anyone. A single person can unilaterally decide they don't care about that, and pursue sex work as they like. A person in a relationship who does so either does so secretly or against their partner's wishes or with their partner's consent. You don't need your partner's approval to be an accountant, and it's a big red flag if they think you do. But you do need their approval to be a prostitute, if you want to do so ethically, not because sex work is immoral, but because having sex outside a relationship is only ethical if the partner knows and agrees, or has agreed to a don't ask don't tell arrangement or something like that.

Relationships are totally different. If you have promised to someone to act within certain parameters, then do your best to do that. I have made such a commitment and I live by it. But… that is nothing to do with me fucking another guy or girl being wrong. It’s just I’ve willingly said I won’t do that, because the relationship means that much to me.

Again it’s not sex that is wrong, it’s not respecting what you have agreed with others.

Emily

 

[MillieDynamite]

Another nasty technique that pimps use is to claim he’s in love with an underage girl. Seduce her, take her into his bed and his home. Eventually, forcing her to earn her way like all the girls who he doesn’t love do for him.

Once she’s out there working her ass off for him, he puts her into the stable with other mares and finds a new girl to ‘love.’

 

[AwkwardlySet]

My antenna go up when I'm participating in a forum with people who write erotic stories and assumptions are being made that sexual activity is somehow categorically different from, or morally inferior to, other kinds of activities. It's something I like to challenge. I don't pretend I have all the answers.

I took no moralizing stance towards sex work. I honestly have no idea what some people here are reacting to. I questioned one specific facet of sex work, it being heavily looks-based, that was all.

My sense is that modeling is a lot of exhausting work. And certainly prostitution involves doing very physical work with your body which may potentially be very unpleasant. It may be the case that inborn beauty helps with these jobs. Inborn intelligence helps with programming or lawyering as well. But in all cases once your inborn qualities make it possible for you to do the work, you still have to then do the actual work. I'm not about to spend 16 hours shivering in frigid waves to be a model, or sleep with dozens of possibly abusive strangers to be a prostitute, no matter how good I look, because the work seems daunting. And then there's the fact that both jobs require skills in addition to beauty and willingness to do the work - I've watched enough Tyra and Ru Paul to know you have to know how to work the camera, and that's not automatic. And a prostitute needs to be a kind of actor to make clients feel like she likes them.

Of course, sex work or modeling is still work that takes effort. My point wasn't about that. My point was that it requires almost no effort prior to the actual employment. To become a lawyer, programmer, doctor, musician, or whatever, besides the intelligence or talent, you need to invest shitloads of years, work, and even money to finally get to the point when you can actually start earning. Modeling and sex work aren't like that. If you are attractive enough you can go for a casting in a modeling agency right away (assuming your age fits as well) In this case, I actually know what I'm talking about as I've witnessed my students doing exactly that.
You can start sex work right away as well, you just need to seek employment at the right establishment.

 

[LMWM321]

This is the crux of the matter. The reason that sex is treated differently from other activities is “morality.”

When you strip away millennia of what people have decided is good for us (and told us that deities will be angry if we stray from the path), then there is no reason why sex should be any different to other things that people do.

Emily

Agreed...

Any wise Alien visiting earth would be surprised to learn that it's totally lawful for people to rent their bodies out to be bashed and battered for money - e.g., Boxing, MMA, NFL Football, even hockey - but unlawful for a woman (usually) to rent her body out to a lonely person in desperate need of human closeness, touch, etc.. Simply idiotic.

Sex work should be legal, respected and protected. Simple as that.

 

[djrip]

I took no moralizing stance towards sex work. I honestly have no idea what some people here are reacting to. I questioned one specific facet of sex work, it being heavily looks-based, that was all.


Of course, sex work or modeling is still work that takes effort. My point wasn't about that. My point was that it requires almost no effort prior to the actual employment. To become a lawyer, programmer, doctor, musician, or whatever, besides the intelligence or talent, you need to invest shitloads of years, work, and even money to finally get to the point when you can actually start earning. Modeling and sex work aren't like that. If you are attractive enough you can go for a casting in a modeling agency right away (assuming your age fits as well) In this case, I actually know what I'm talking about as I've witnessed my students doing exactly that.
You can start sex work right away as well, you just need to seek employment at the right establishment.

Well you don't need much prior effort to do fast food or retail. Do you have any negative feelings about people doing those?

Nevermind, I guess you don't need an inborn trait like beauty to do those. But really, I don't think you need much of an inborn trait to do prostitution, either.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Individuals with negative feelings about sex workers aren't the problem. It's the massive amount of people with negative views of sex workers, that is.

Well you don't need much prior effort to do fast food or retail. Do you have any negative feelings about people doing those?

Nevermind, I guess you don't need an inborn trait like beauty to do those. But really, I don't think you need much of an inborn trait to do prostitution, either.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Individuals with negative feelings about sex workers aren't the problem. It's the massive amount of people with negative views of sex workers, that is.

This thread is about dehumanizing sex workers. We have strayed far from that. But I hope any person with an ounce of decency would agree that sex workers are as fully human as anyone else.

Emily