Demonizing sex workers

[MillieDynamite]

Well, I say to them, fuck 'um up the ass if they can't get this isn't a shameful thing. Just fuck them up the ass!

It's not just the LW crowd, I can assure you...

I have a story posted here in Novels/Novella that is a romantic action adventure tale with only teasingly erotic scenes. Two of the side-character wives own and run an "Adult Entertainment and Education Venue", which is a strip club where couples can go together to learn how to tease and please each other by taking classes and trying out routines among other students.

These two wives and mothers, with the full knowledge and consent of all the men in their extended family, take the female MC to the club and let her learn how to do a sexy strip tease for her honeymoon. There was no sex, she practiced only in front of other women taking the same class, yet readers were not kind about the scenes.

 

[HordHolm]

I think maybe people’s attitudes are more influenced by their views of morality more than criminality.

Em

Depends where you are - I've lived in more than one place in London where there were street workers, pimps, dealers and punters at all hours, cops cruising past or screeching through on blues and twos to deal with them, needles and used condoms on the pavement in the morning, people fucking or shooting up in our doorways, etc. Believe me, we weren't really worried about the morality - it was the criminality that was the problem. Many people in the neighbourhood were fucking livid at what was going on, and to them whatever side of the equation you were on - either buying or selling - you were scum because of the environment that was being created for those who had nothing to do with it except location.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

I couldn't agree more. This has been one of the most interesting threads in a while, regardless - no, let's be honest, because of - the diversity. Do I agree with all the viewpoints on offer? Hell, no! Am I interested and happy that the debate has been civilised despite the divergent views on offer? 100%.

Thanks @EmilyMiller for kicking it all off.

That's what happens when people who are somewhat reasonable and pragmatic get together to converse. Do you and do you hafta agree, no and that's okay, and you're engaging like a rational adult, even better. Not everybody is going to be on the same accord(See Simons style thread speechifying) and I don't think most are looking for echo chambers. I don't agree with most of this and it's okay if nobody agrees with me.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Just for the record, legalizing prostitution doesn't make all prostitution legal. If it is legalized, the idea will be to move it off the streets, away from neighborhoods. Good idea, right? Yes, it is.

Prostitution would move into brothels. The brothels would be licensed, and the workers would be licensed, both of which cost money. If the house is run by a generous manager or owner, he will pay for the license for the girls. With that said, many would require the girl to buy her own. Many will require her/him to be licensed before filling out an application. Voluntary prostitution in the USA isn't generally from families that are well off. It's from people doing the work because they can't find other work or because they are poor enough that they have to hook.

The price for prostitutes in whore houses will be more than for sex workers, working illegally, on the streets, or out of their homes.

Some seem to think that street action doesn't exist anymore. I assure you it does. Women work in bars, hotel lobbies, hotel bars, and near hotels. That won't go away, not for some time, if ever. I don't know what it is like in other countries. But here, poverty breeds prostitution. Legal whore houses in Nevada haven't stopped women from working the casinos or the streets there. And I'm not just talking Las Vegas, but throughout the state where tourists are.

How many street girls actually have a website? How many have a computer? Not everyone has a computer. Not everyone has an internet connection.

I'm all for legalizing it and restricting where they can sell their wares. But if you push into brothels and leave the rest illegal, the illegal will still happen. If you legalize it in certain areas, you still have licensing issues. And the workers, wherever they work, need to have regular (weekly) testing for STDs. If a woman is working to support two or three kids, how's she going to afford all the necessities that come with it being legal? How do you manage government assistance for those not lucky enough to work in a whorehouse?

Just saying, making something legal doesn't change all the problems that created the situation in the first place.

 

[Rustyoznail]

Just for the record, legalizing prostitution doesn't make all prostitution legal. If it is legalized, the idea will be to move it off the streets, away from neighborhoods. Good idea, right? Yes, it is.

Prostitution would move into brothels. The brothels would be licensed, and the workers would be licensed, both of which cost money. If the house is run by a generous manager or owner, he will pay for the license for the girls. With that said, many would require the girl to buy her own. Many will require her/him to be licensed before filling out an application. Voluntary prostitution in the USA isn't generally from families that are well off. It's from people doing the work because they can't find other work or because they are poor enough that they have to hook.

The price for prostitutes in whore houses will be more than for sex workers, working illegally, on the streets, or out of their homes.

Some seem to think that street action doesn't exist anymore. I assure you it does. Women work in bars, hotel lobbies, hotel bars, and near hotels. That won't go away, not for some time, if ever. I don't know what it is like in other countries. But here, poverty breeds prostitution. Legal whore houses in Nevada haven't stopped women from working the casinos or the streets there. And I'm not just talking Las Vegas, but throughout the state where tourists are.

How many street girls actually have a website? How many have a computer? Not everyone has a computer. Not everyone has an internet connection.

I'm all for legalizing it and restricting where they can sell their wares. But if you push into brothels and leave the rest illegal, the illegal will still happen. If you legalize it in certain areas, you still have licensing issues. And the workers, wherever they work, need to have regular (weekly) testing for STDs. If a woman is working to support two or three kids, how's she going to afford all the necessities that come with it being legal? How do you manage government assistance for those not lucky enough to work in a whorehouse?

Just saying, making something legal doesn't change all the problems that created the situation in the first place.

Not necessarily. Here, you can be employed by a brothel or be 'independent', meaning you are free to conduct business nearly anywhere. You can advertise in newspapers, and there are websites where, for example, escorts and babes dot com etc can post their offerings. We also have sites where you can leave a moderated review of your service provider.

Now, it's not all rosy here. The reason why independent is in quotes is because there's a semi hidden trade in trafficking mostly Asian women around the country by gangs. They advertise as independent, but if you search the phone number you may get hits for someone completely different. And often the woman answering the door is not the person in the photos.

Still, I think most legitimate sex workers would say things are better now than 20 years ago.

 

[XerXesXu]

Just for the record, legalizing prostitution doesn't make all prostitution legal. If it is legalized, the idea will be to move it off the streets, away from neighborhoods. Good idea, right? Yes, it is.

Prostitution would move into brothels. The brothels would be licensed, and the workers would be licensed, both of which cost money. If the house is run by a generous manager or owner, he will pay for the license for the girls. With that said, many would require the girl to buy her own. Many will require her/him to be licensed before filling out an application. Voluntary prostitution in the USA isn't generally from families that are well off. It's from people doing the work because they can't find other work or because they are poor enough that they have to hook.

The price for prostitutes in whore houses will be more than for sex workers, working illegally, on the streets, or out of their homes.

Some seem to think that street action doesn't exist anymore. I assure you it does. Women work in bars, hotel lobbies, hotel bars, and near hotels. That won't go away, not for some time, if ever. I don't know what it is like in other countries. But here, poverty breeds prostitution. Legal whore houses in Nevada haven't stopped women from working the casinos or the streets there. And I'm not just talking Las Vegas, but throughout the state where tourists are.

How many street girls actually have a website? How many have a computer? Not everyone has a computer. Not everyone has an internet connection.

I'm all for legalizing it and restricting where they can sell their wares. But if you push into brothels and leave the rest illegal, the illegal will still happen. If you legalize it in certain areas, you still have licensing issues. And the workers, wherever they work, need to have regular (weekly) testing for STDs. If a woman is working to support two or three kids, how's she going to afford all the necessities that come with it being legal? How do you manage government assistance for those not lucky enough to work in a whorehouse?

Just saying, making something legal doesn't change all the problems that created the situation in the first place.

Yes, the reverse happened in London. When they prohibited soliciting in public, they also tightened the rules on running the premises to which they took clients to provide a service in private and in comfort. The number of places which would accept them dropped dramatically and they started doing 'it' in the street. What some people saw as a minor nuisance soon became a major nuisance. The old order was overturned, and the consequences were unanticipated.

 

[SimonDoom]

The history of changing regulations regarding prostitution, and the unintended consequences that have resulted, remind me of the classic Cobra effect. In colonial India, Delhi had a problem with too many cobras. So the ever-wise colonial government came up with a solution: offer a bounty on cobras. So what was the effect? People raised cobras and turned them in! The government officials noticed that people kept bringing in cobras, but they were no longer on the streets, so they lifted the bounty. So what was the effect? People released all those cobras they had raised back into the streets! After all, nobody wants a cobra in the house unless you can make money off of it. As a result of the policy, the cobra problem was worse than ever.

 

[HordHolm]

The history of changing regulations regarding prostitution, and the unintended consequences that have resulted, remind me of the classic Cobra effect. In colonial India, Delhi had a problem with too many cobras. So the ever-wise colonial government came up with a solution: offer a bounty on cobras. So what was the effect? People raised cobras and turned them in! The government officials noticed that people kept bringing in cobras, but they were no longer on the streets, so they lifted the bounty. So what was the effect? People released all those cobras they had raised back into the streets! After all, nobody wants a cobra in the house unless you can make money off of it. As a result of the policy, the cobra problem was worse than ever.

Terry Pratchett used this same problem with rats in his main fantasy city. He had the Patrician of said city immediately identify the problem and provide a solution, "tax the rat farms," but sadly it's not so easy in real life.

 

[MelissaBaby]

The history of changing regulations regarding prostitution, and the unintended consequences that have resulted, remind me of the classic Cobra effect. In colonial India, Delhi had a problem with too many cobras. So the ever-wise colonial government came up with a solution: offer a bounty on cobras. So what was the effect? People raised cobras and turned them in! The government officials noticed that people kept bringing in cobras, but they were no longer on the streets, so they lifted the bounty. So what was the effect? People released all those cobras they had raised back into the streets! After all, nobody wants a cobra in the house unless you can make money off of it. As a result of the policy, the cobra problem was worse than ever.

A similar situation took place in the Philippines with a bounty on rats. It was actually used as an example of unintended consequences in one of my sociology classes.

 

[onehitwanda]

Terry Pratchett used this same problem with rats in his main fantasy city. He had the Patrician of said city immediately identify the problem and provide a solution, "tax the rat farms," but sadly it's not so easy in real life.

I laughed so hard at this one. Havelock Vetinari is one of my favourite Discworld characters.

 

[StillStunned]

Havelock Vetinari is one of my favourite Discworld characters.

Discworld democracy: "One man, one vote. He was the man, he had the vote."

 

[Rustyoznail]

I laughed so hard at this one. Havelock Vetinari is one of my favourite Discworld characters.

(Looks around for @Duleigh..)

More fuel for your stories, mate.

 

[HordHolm]

(Looks around for @Duleigh..)

More fuel for your stories, mate.

Havelock Vetinari - The Dispassionate Dom.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Despite legalization, acceptance of the profession, and open attitudes toward sex workers, take one home to meet mom and dad and wait for the fireworks to begin. Sex workers will always be considered second or third-class citizens by a large percentage of the public. It's human nature to look down on groups. For much of history, actors were despised by the folk who went to watch them. When movies came around, the elites frowned on motion picture actors but held stage performers in less contempt. Hence the term, Legitimate theater.

Acknowledging rights and inviting a whore to dine with your ritzy friends isn't the same thing. There are three types of Cowboys out there. Working cowboys are those who are employed by ranchers or feed yards. Rodeo cowboys who earn their living performing and competing. And the Wannabes, sometimes called Drug Store Cowboys, dressing the part. They hang out the right bars, but they aren't cowboys, and the first two can spot the third one a mile away.

But whoreing won't have grades to the general public.

 

[TruthwithaTwist]

We live in a culture of people being able to attack and comment anonymously with no basis or fact. So, I'm betting a lot of those commenters have never met or encountered a sex worker in their real life. Basing their comments on what they read online or see in movies.

Case in point: when I lived in Las Vegas, a good friend of mine was, in fact, a professional escort. It may SHOCK some readers that we would meet for dinner, have drinks, go to movies, hang out on a regular basis just like "normal" friends. She wasn't drug addicted nor a social deviant. She was a part-time college student who needed some extra money, very similar to how I was a part-time bartender at the same time.

I'm also curious how many of those readers/commenters LOVE stories about women sleeping around - but react with venom when money gets introduced?

 

[JaxRhapsody]

basis just like "normal" friends. She wasn't drug addicted nor a social deviant. She was a part-time college student who needed some extra money, very similar to how I was a part-time bartender at the same time.

I'm also curious how many of those readers/commenters LOVE stories about women sleeping around - but react with venom when money gets introduced?

Well... everybody likes a slut. Almost.

 

[Rob_Royale]

Not to make light of the subject but were any sex workers changed into demons last night?

 

[SimonDoom]

Sex workers will always be considered second or third-class citizens by a large percentage of the public. It's human nature to look down on groups.

I would just say, be careful about that word "always." I don't think we can say with any confidence that any thing will "always" be true. There's been significant change in the way sex workers have been perceived just since the time I became an adult, and progress is ongoing. I'm more optimistic. I think it likely will become more normalized and accepted in time.

 

[StillStunned]

Not to make light of the subject but were any sex workers changed into demons last night?

Also not to make light of the subject, but I'm writing a story provisionally called "Demonised" (alternative title: "Bought and Souled"). Prostitutes are literal demons, and the price is more than just cash.

I'm a bit concerned that the underlying message is both too subtle and too heavy-handed. When I'm done I might ask for people's opinions before I submit it.

(For the record, I'm strongly against people blaming/hating/demonising anyone else for their own shortcomings and behaviour.)

 

[MillieDynamite]

You may be right, but for now, sex workers aren't well respected by the vast majority of people in the world.

I would just say, be careful about that word "always." I don't think we can say with any confidence that any thing will "always" be true. There's been significant change in the way sex workers have been perceived just since the time I became an adult, and progress is ongoing. I'm more optimistic. I think it likely will become more normalized and accepted in time.

 

[SimonDoom]

You may be right, but for now, sex workers aren't well respected by the vast majority of people in the world.

We agree about that.

 

[MelissaBaby]

You may be right, but for now, sex workers aren't well respected by the vast majority of people in the world.

Name a primarily female occupation that is.

 

[Duleigh]

(Looks around for @Duleigh..)

More fuel for your stories, mate.

I've put 200k of Discworld in SciFi and @onehitwanda hasn't even taken a peek at any of the 4 Enchantress stories I've posted
Betcha she ignores my extra special Winter Holiday episode Hogswatch too.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Not necessarily. Here, you can be employed by a brothel or be 'independent', meaning you are free to conduct business nearly anywhere. You can advertise in newspapers, and there are websites where, for example, escorts and babes dot com etc can post their offerings. We also have sites where you can leave a moderated review of your service provider.

I think you're in NSW? If you are, what you have there is decriminalisation (full-service sex work essentially treated like any other business) as vs. legalisation (FSSW permitted but with requirements for licensing, regs specific to that industry, etc. etc. - brothels may be either mandatory or forbidden, depending on which specific model of legalisation) which is what Millie's describing.

Now, it's not all rosy here. The reason why independent is in quotes is because there's a semi hidden trade in trafficking mostly Asian women around the country by gangs.

"Trafficking" as in "kidnapped and forced into sex work", or as in "smuggling non-residents who don't have the necessary work permit"?

The former is one that gets invoked a lot in discussion of sex work but very often seems to be exaggerated. Actually kidnapping people is a complex and dangerous business, especially when the nature of the work requires them to have contact with people outside the organisation. It only takes one unlocked door, or one customer with pangs of conscience, to get the whole organisation in trouble.

I think the latter is much more common, because it's lower risk and there are plenty of people who will voluntarily work under exploitative conditions because they need the money. (Well, we could argue about "voluntarily" here, but if they're being forced into sex work it's by economics and the need to eat, rather than by a gangster with a chloroform-soaked rag).

I'd also note that the latter is not particularly specific to sex work. Farm labour, nail salons, food industry, clothes manufacturing, take your pick - there are plenty of industries willing to exploit undocumented labourers who don't have better options. A while back we had a case where a religious group got busted exploiting undocumented stonemasons to work on a temple, or something of that sort. It's not unusual for women* who are "rescued" from crappy brothels etc. to end up in even crappier garment factories and other such businesses.

(This is one of my litmus tests for people who are Very Concerned about sex work: does the problem they're invoking as a reason for banning SW exist in other industries, and are they calling for similar action against those industries?)

A lot of it comes down to: we live in a mostly-capitalist society which says that you need money in order to eat, and if you want money you probably have to do things you don't like for it, and for some people sex work is the least bad option on the table. But many people are less squeamish about the exploitation of people who make clothes than about the exploitation of people who suck dicks.

*not that all sex workers are women, just that the cases I've heard of for this particular issue were all with women.

Still, I think most legitimate sex workers would say things are better now than 20 years ago.

Yup. End of the day, I try to stay educated but I'm not a sex worker, not an expert on the industry, so I look primarily to what sex workers have to say about how to make their lives better. The vast majority seem to support decrim as the best option, even if it's imperfect.

 

[Bramblethorn]

[re. "well respected"]

Name a primarily female occupation that is.

Well... there are plenty of people willing to talk about how much they respect nurses and teachers, both of which I'd count as primarily female occupations.

But that talk seems pretty hollow when one looks at the actual pay and conditions for people working in those occupations, and the shit they have to put up with. I recall Nina Hartley talking about quitting nursing to go work in porn, and it sounded like for her it was a big improvement.