Demonizing sex workers

[AchtungNight]

All beings that experience orgasm are potentially sex workers imo. Just think about the last time you or your partner wanted a climax and someone’s body wouldn’t immediately cooperate. Think about how you had to work to make it happen. Did you do it? Then you’re a sex worker. And imho disparaging and demonizing people who do sex work is wrong.

If they’re exploiting people and furthering suffering, that’s one thing. But if they’re doing it out of an honest desire to help others and themselves, sex positivity, that should be allowed. Honor positive sex workers of every kind- porn artists like ourselves, exotic dancers, cam artists, managers like this site’s admins, sex therapists and other enablers, and at the core, the average people trying to have or help their partners have orgasms with no threat, fraud, or abuse in mind.

 

[FeralSmile]

BTB is leftist? Who knew?

Em

Sadly, I think misogyny and the belief in punishment for "sin" aren't really well-mapped to right v left politics. That said, your point is very valid: leftists espouse human rights as a core value, and BTB really doesn't fit there.

 

[AchtungNight]

Sadly, I think misogyny and the belief in punishment for "sin" aren't really well-mapped to right v left politics. That said, your point is very valid: leftists espouse human rights as a core value, and BTB really doesn't fit there.

America was founded to support human rights. Anyone who would deny others such rights imho does not deserve to have elected power in this country.

But I try to stay out of politics.

 

[FeralSmile]

America was founded to support human rights. Anyone who would deny others such rights imho does not deserve to have elected power in this country.

But I try to stay out of politics.

I... don't, overall, but I'm cautious about engaging in those discussions here. Sealions and bigots aren't often worth the time and effort.

 

[HordHolm]

Just a note:

This thread is not meant to be about the rights and wrongs of sex work. It’s meant to be about the rights and wrongs of being disparaging about sex workers. And - in particular - about treating them as less than human. E.g. no sane man would marry a prostitute.

Just sayin’

Em

Hmmm... but the cultural viewpoint on the rights/wrongs of sex work are very likely to feed into whether (or more realistically, to what extent) sex workers are demonised, disparaged, ignored, etc. So, for example, is their visibility - thus street workers will attract a lot of negative responses in a community even when in that society in general there is a higher level of tolerance than elsewhere. But once the workers are off the streets they are often simply 'out of sight, out of mind', and the level of dislike/demonising in society drops quite dramatically.

Furthermore, if sex work attracted workers rights, etc, it might become more accepted in society as something viable (I say 'might' as I would need some fairly strong convincing of that - which isn't to say it shouldn't be done. It absolutely should). I also like the idea of sex workers unionising. It's been done in Holland, and the workers have a genuine voice - though that's not to say there aren't some serious issues/debates/disagreements in Dutch society about sex work. But the interesting thing there is that it seems to be, at least on face value, more about the behaviour of the punters rather than the workers. The same goes for Sweden to an even greater degree - it is illegal to pay for sex in Sweden, but not to sell it. Sweden has some of the strongest laws in this regard, but I'm not sure they are a good idea (that's a different debate, though).

The other thing to take into account with this debate is the disconnect between Europe and the USA. For those of us in Europe, we come from societies where sex work is much less likely to be criminalised - e.g in the UK, sex work is legal provided a) it isn't street solicitation (and even there the police often turn a blind eye), and b) you aren't 'living off the earnings' of someone else, i.e. pimping or running a brothel. However, most of you guys are from the USA, where sex work (and I'm referring here strictly to the act of selling sex, not stripping, Only Fans, etc, etc) is a criminal act. Once you are at that level it's hardly surprising that it is demonised, and the act of decriminalisation might go some distance to *slowly* changing attitudes. Thus, it's hard not to include these concepts in the debate.

But of course, there are other issues out with the 'simple' act of selling sex that complicate the issue - changes in drug laws and safe spaces for drug consumption might take some of that shit out of those communities which are also in the frontline of street prostitution.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Is it wrong that I look at the title of this thread every day and am now mentally starting to put together story outlines where sex workers are literally turned into demons - Revenge of the Street Walking Succubi - High Class and Hellborn - Escort You To Hell - and so forth. I'm not sure where the stories are going or how they will end, but the moral is already pretty clear - "Don't demonize sex workers."

 

[HordHolm]

Is it wrong that I look at the title of this thread every day and am now mentally starting to put together story outlines where sex workers are literally turned into demons - Revenge of the Street Walking Succubi - High Class and Hellborn - Escort You To Hell - and so forth. I'm not sure where the stories are going or how they will end, but the moral is already pretty clear - "Don't demonize sex workers."

Not wrong.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

I don't think most men need any temptation more than a smile to think the woman wants to fuck them. It seems to be the default mode for men, oh, she wants my body so bad. Yeah, sure, she does.

Sadly...

 

[JaxRhapsody]

Am I naive to think we are capable of growth and kindness as a species? I am, aren’t I?

Em

You mean people? People people... human people? No, nooo, [nods head] you just keep that hope alive.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

All beings that experience orgasm are potentially sex workers imo. Just think about the last time you or your partner wanted a climax and someone’s body wouldn’t immediately cooperate. Think about how you had to work to make it happen. Did you do it? Then you’re a sex worker. And imho disparaging and demonizing people who do sex work is wrong.

If they’re exploiting people and furthering suffering, that’s one thing. But if they’re doing it out of an honest desire to help others and themselves, sex positivity, that should be allowed. Honor positive sex workers of every kind- porn artists like ourselves, exotic dancers, cam artists, managers like this site’s admins, sex therapists and other enablers, and at the core, the average people trying to have or help their partners have orgasms with no threat, fraud, or abuse in mind.

That is not sex work, that's just two people fucking. And if they were just trying to help then they wouldn't be prostitutes, they'd just be altruistic horny sluts trying to make the world a better place.

 

[FeralSmile]

All beings that experience orgasm are potentially sex workers imo. Just think about the last time you or your partner wanted a climax and someone’s body wouldn’t immediately cooperate. Think about how you had to work to make it happen. Did you do it? Then you’re a sex worker.

Well, no. Did you sell the service? That's central to the concept of sex WORKER. If you're doing it for free you're not working.

 

[lc69hunter]

The diversity of thought on this subject, and even the diversity of thought on what the discussion is about, has been fascinating. Culture almost always intrudes upon rational thought

 

[HordHolm]

The diversity of thought on this subject, and even the diversity of thought on what the discussion is about, has been fascinating. Culture almost always intrudes upon rational thought

I couldn't agree more. This has been one of the most interesting threads in a while, regardless - no, let's be honest, because of - the diversity. Do I agree with all the viewpoints on offer? Hell, no! Am I interested and happy that the debate has been civilised despite the divergent views on offer? 100%.

Thanks @EmilyMiller for kicking it all off.

 

[SimonDoom]

Just a note:

This thread is not meant to be about the rights and wrongs of sex work. It’s meant to be about the rights and wrongs of being disparaging about sex workers. And - in particular - about treating them as less than human. E.g. no sane man would marry a prostitute.

Just sayin’

Em

I think, though, that they are necessarily tied together. If we believe that the activity should be criminalized, then isn't it correct to disapprove of those who engage in the criminal behavior? Or, at the least, we should not normalize the behavior and say "It's perfectly OK to do that." I do NOT believe the activity should be criminalized, so I wholly support your initial position against demonization, and I would be opposed to something as strong as "demonization" regardless. But to some degree our approval or disapproval of people who engage in a certain activity necessarily is going to be influenced by whether we think the activity should be criminalized.

 

[AchtungNight]

Well, no. Did you sell the service? That's central to the concept of sex WORKER. If you're doing it for free you're not working.

So if I just earn gifts of feedback, romance stuff, and climax exchanges it’s not work? Then how come it feels that way sometimes?

 

[FeralSmile]

I think, though, that they are necessarily tied together. If we believe that the activity should be criminalized, then isn't it correct to disapprove of those who engage in the criminal behavior? Or, at the least, we should not normalize the behavior and say "It's perfectly OK to do that." I do NOT believe the activity should be criminalized, so I wholly support your initial position against demonization, and I would be opposed to something as strong as "demonization" regardless. But to some degree our approval or disapproval of people who engage in a certain activity necessarily is going to be influenced by whether we think the activity should be criminalized.

I think they can be separated. On the one hand, we can discuss whether sex work should or should not be criminalized. You might have various reasons, ethical and religious and cultural, for your arguments to either end.

But quite separately, we can discuss whether sex workers ought to be treated and thought of as people, deserving of human rights the same as everyone else. Human rights aren't a matter of behavior or lawfulness after all; they're innate. How you feel about the lawfulness of an activity shouldn't impact on how you feel about the humanity, and essential human value, of people who engage in that activity.

Which is to say that you might think sex work should be ok, or you might feel that it's awful, but regardless, sex workers remain people. And on that level we can have a discussion about how those people deserve to be treated with respect and dignity, like all other people.

I think that was Emily's point here.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I think they can be separated. On the one hand, we can discuss whether sex work should or should not be criminalized. You might have various reasons, ethical and religious and cultural, for your arguments to either end.

But quite separately, we can discuss whether sex workers ought to be treated and thought of as people, deserving of human rights the same as everyone else. Human rights aren't a matter of behavior or lawfulness after all; they're innate. How you feel about the lawfulness of an activity shouldn't impact on how you feel about the humanity, and essential human value, of people who engage in that activity.

Which is to say that you might think sex work should be ok, or you might feel that it's awful, but regardless, sex workers remain people. And on that level we can have a discussion about how those people deserve to be treated with respect and dignity, like all other people.

I think that was Emily's point here.

Yes, that’s my point.

Em

 

[HordHolm]

How you feel about the lawfulness of an activity shouldn't impact on how you feel about the humanity, and essential human value, of people who engage in that activity.

It shouldn't, but it's naive to think that it doesn't.

 

[EmilyMiller]

It shouldn't, but it's naive to think that it doesn't.

I think maybe people’s attitudes are more influenced by their views of morality more than criminality.

Em

 

[dadadadiox]

In my relatively small sample size of reading and writing and here, including comments, it seems male attitudes on Lit are in-line with larger society. Women are held to a different standard. Any perceived misbehavior is looked upon harshly. A simple rebuff of a man’s advances can be weaponized. Sex workers and cheaters are routinely pilloried. Out in the world it’s not shocking that men are hypocrites regarding sexual behavior, but seeing it on a porn site where these men are seeking a salacious content is ridiculous… IMO.

I was one-bombed for many chapters because my MCs were having an affair. The trolls didn’t stop reading because the story offended them. They commented harshly about cheating wives and then returned chapter after chapter to double down with those one-stars. Jees. Get a life.

I suspect they see sex workers as next level offenders. Professional or not, a woman with many partners is shamed while a man sleeping around is a stud. It’s a double standard as old as the oldest profession.

 

[CyranoJ]

By the way: someone up-thread cited a "study" that supposedly confirmed a 60% increase in "trafficking" in Germany after decriminalization in 2002. I went looking for it... and couldn't locate it. However, I did find a useful paper that sums up a lot of the actual research on the topic of both 2002's decriminalization measures in Germany and the 2017 law supposedly "protecting" sex workers with regulation (arguably a step backwards). It's a recommended read... well, recommended by me, anyway.

EmilyMiller​

I think maybe people’s attitudes are more influenced by their views of morality more than criminality.​

For a lot of people it's more about whether their belief in themselves as a correctly "moral" person is upheld; whatever happens to sex workers is secondary to that. This basically is how the "Nordic model" works.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think maybe people’s attitudes are more influenced by their views of morality more than criminality.

Em

I think you probably are right, Emily, and I think we have to be aware of the ways that moral condemnation and stigmatization can have real, adverse impacts on people's lives regardless of what the law is. If you legalize something, but it's still heavily stigmatized, and employers won't hire you, and your family kicks you out of the house, and your friends shun you, then as a practical matter you may lose effective control over your activity even if the law nominally gives you freedom. From my brief partial read of the article Cyrano just posted (great link, by the way, @CyranoJ), this is part of the problem in Germany.

The problem I see is, how do you get from A to B if you keep it illegal? The first step, it seems to me, is granting women legal control over their bodies. The next step is for society to adjust to that fact in a humane way. Both steps are necessary (IMO). But I don't see how we get to more humanity without legalization.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I think you probably are right, Emily, and I think we have to be aware of the ways that moral condemnation and stigmatization can have real, adverse impacts on people's lives regardless of what the law is. If you legalize something, but it's still heavily stigmatized, and employers won't hire you, and your family kicks you out of the house, and your friends shun you, then as a practical matter you may lose effective control over your activity even if the law nominally gives you freedom. From my brief partial read of the article Cyrano just posted (great link, by the way, @CyranoJ), this is part of the problem in Germany.

The problem I see is, how do you get from A to B if you keep it illegal? The first step, it seems to me, is granting women legal control over their bodies. The next step is for society to adjust to that fact in a humane way. Both steps are necessary (IMO). But I don't see how we get to more humanity without legalization.

I agree.

Em

 

[MillieDynamite]

Show me a happy sex worker in America with a Pimp, I'll show you a sex worker that lies through her teeth!

 

[BobbyBrandt]

I get that. But I find the hypocrisy even more shocking than the misogyny of the vocal LW minority.

It kinda feels like two (incompatible) things:

1. All women are whores (particularly the bitch who left me)
2. Whores aren’t people

Em

It's not just the LW crowd, I can assure you...

I have a story posted here in Novels/Novella that is a romantic action adventure tale with only teasingly erotic scenes. Two of the side-character wives own and run an "Adult Entertainment and Education Venue", which is a strip club where couples can go together to learn how to tease and please each other by taking classes and trying out routines among other students.

These two wives and mothers, with the full knowledge and consent of all the men in their extended family, take the female MC to the club and let her learn how to do a sexy strip tease for her honeymoon. There was no sex, she practiced only in front of other women taking the same class, yet readers were not kind about the scenes.