Discreet Bi Women...

[sassylilthang]

Ok...so lets get back to the subject - how does a lady who is bi-curious find another woman to explore with? (lets assume she has worked out the husband, bf, etc issue).

Any ideas?

............

 

[nici]

Ok...so lets get back to the subject - how does a lady who is bi-curious find another woman to explore with? (lets assume she has worked out the husband, bf, etc issue).

Any ideas?

I really don't see where there is a problem. (Well, unless you live in some way off the beaten path backwoods village.)

If there is no male to worry about or wanting to be involved, just go to any lesbian bar, club or hang-out. That tough looking butch dyke isn't going to eat you alive... unless you ask her to. And I should know. I've asked a few. Okay, I'll admit, I have this thing for butch women. (sighs) It's my errr, ummm, one of my fetishes.

(Just don't go there with a male if you do have one. That is very bad manners, if not insulting.)

 

[nici]

Totally off subject but I must say that I find you beautiful Nici.

Thank you.

 

[Minouners]

Ok...so lets get back to the subject - how does a lady who is bi-curious find another woman to explore with? (lets assume she has worked out the husband, bf, etc issue).

Any ideas?

Have you ever been to a gay bar?

 

[Minouners]

Thank you.

You're very welcome

 

[Minouners]

So are you.

Awww thanks!

 

[Macy02]

I really don't see where there is a problem. (Well, unless you live in some way off the beaten path backwoods village.)

If there is no male to worry about or wanting to be involved, just go to any lesbian bar, club or hang-out. That tough looking butch dyke isn't going to eat you alive... unless you ask her to. And I should know. I've asked a few. Okay, I'll admit, I have this thing for butch women. (sighs) It's my errr, ummm, one of my fetishes.

(Just don't go there with a male if you do have one. That is very bad manners, if not insulting.)

Actually I do live out in the country - and if you met my neighbors you might wonder if this is a backwards village. Everyone/everything in town is fixated on what church you go to, there is NOT a single bar in the town, it's 2 hour drive to nearest large community.

Min, I have been to a gay bar....but I was not there on a completely social excursion....a group I used to belong to went there periodically as a community service type thing - it's difficult to explain. I did notice the clientele was almost exclusively male. (I will not be going to that one in particular - if I ever do go to one).

I do have a friend who is a transexual - she has offered to take me out one night but she has ABSOLUTELY NO idea of my interests. And it would be best to keep it that way.

I don't know if I like the bar scene...never did when I was dating. I'm afraid I would stick out like a sore thumb not to mention I've never "picked up" someone male or female and don't recall ever getting "picked up" except that one time....

So besides a bar what other options are out there?

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Awww thanks!

Ur welcum....

 

[Minouners]

Actually I do live out in the country - and if you met my neighbors you might wonder if this is a backwards village. Everyone/everything in town is fixated on what church you go to, there is NOT a single bar in the town, it's 2 hour drive to nearest large community.

Min, I have been to a gay bar....but I was not there on a completely social excursion....a group I used to belong to went there periodically as a community service type thing - it's difficult to explain. I did notice the clientele was almost exclusively male. (I will not be going to that one in particular - if I ever do go to one).

I do have a friend who is a transexual - she has offered to take me out one night but she has ABSOLUTELY NO idea of my interests. And it would be best to keep it that way.

I don't know if I like the bar scene...never did when I was dating. I'm afraid I would stick out like a sore thumb not to mention I've never "picked up" someone male or female and don't recall ever getting "picked up" except that one time....

So besides a bar what other options are out there?

I hate to say it but have you tried online dating??? It could be a very good option especially if you're wanting to be discreet about it.

What do you think?

 

[aussie_ella]

Actually I do live out in the country - and if you met my neighbors you might wonder if this is a backwards village. Everyone/everything in town is fixated on what church you go to, there is NOT a single bar in the town, it's 2 hour drive to nearest large community.

Min, I have been to a gay bar....but I was not there on a completely social excursion....a group I used to belong to went there periodically as a community service type thing - it's difficult to explain. I did notice the clientele was almost exclusively male. (I will not be going to that one in particular - if I ever do go to one).

I do have a friend who is a transexual - she has offered to take me out one night but she has ABSOLUTELY NO idea of my interests. And it would be best to keep it that way.

I don't know if I like the bar scene...never did when I was dating. I'm afraid I would stick out like a sore thumb not to mention I've never "picked up" someone male or female and don't recall ever getting "picked up" except that one time....

So besides a bar what other options are out there?

Hi Macy,

I have to say, though I've met a few women at lesbian bars, all the 'straight' or bi-curious women I've met have been through friends and colleagues. I'm out to everyone, and I hang around with a lot of straight women, mainly because I look straight, and also because the field of work I'm in means that us women have to stick together!
So, maybe the thing is to get out and meet lots more women, whether it be in an environment where you know there's a higher likelihood of meeting lesbians, or just at bars and things. The woman I'm seeing now (we have an arrangement like I think you're looking for) I met through a friend of a friend at after work drinks one Friday. She found out I was into women during general conversation, and once we got good and drunk she came onto me, much like you might with a gay girl!

I think putting yourself in lots of situations where you might expose yourself to women who are into women will be a lot more productive for you than just rocking up to a lesbian bar. I think you'll have very limited success at a lesbian bar, since 'straight' women are very frowned upon by 'real' lesbians.

I've managed to meet lots of straight women who wanted to try being with a woman but were married or whatever. I completely agree with nici that most men (and women!) don't take having sex with another woman as a serious threat to the hetero relationship, or even as cheating for that matter. But I've learned to live with it if it means I can enjoy gorgeous women and give them an experience they might never otherwise get to have. That sounds so arrogant, but I do love women and don't really want a relationship per se, so it works out well for both of us.

Anyway, hope that helps! Best of luck.

 

[angela146]

I know I’m going to be a bit blunt and negative in my statements. There’s still just too much lez in me not to answer, as I must.

I find the thought pattern, “It’s not cheating because we are both women,” ludicrous. That’s so much like saying, “Since we’re both women, its not real, but only a game. I can’t take you seriously.” Ugh, how male of them! Without any regrets, I’d walk away.

Ok, let's break this down.

1. "Cheating" is defined by the people *in* the relationship. It isn't fair to impose an external standard of cheating onto someone else's marriage/relationship.

2. A cheating definition that allows other women but not other men, doesn't necessarily mean that sex with a woman isn't "serious". It might just mean that the woman can have sex with other women without it being about love. Some of us have sex with friends, and some of us take friendship very seriously.

3. Some people are polyamorous. Even if a woman *does* fall in love with women, they as a couple might not consider it cheating if they/she are poly.

Same holds true for husbands that really don’t get that their wife’s relationship to an other woman could be much more dangerous, far less “just sex” than any relationship she could have with a male. For me, het sex can be animalistic and very primeval… total instinctual… mindless mating. Queer sex is never that for me, but far, far deeper emotionally than het has ever been.

But that's your orientation. For some of us, sex with a woman is far *less* emotional than it is with a man.

For me, sex with a woman is about friendship, not love. I don't get romantic feelings for women. I don't get "swept off of my feet" by a woman. I don't get any of the deeply passionate feelings for women that I get for men.

And my husband knows that. The husband might not be clueless and his attitude might not be disrespectful of women who love other women. His estimation of the danger might just be based on actually knowing his wife.

I find both cases to be disrespectful of, themselves, our feminine sexuality, women in general, and me.

No, it isn't disrespectful of you. It is a *recognition* of the fact that sex means different things to different people.

There really are bisexual women in the world. I happen to be one of them. Not all of us are biamorous.

Sex does not have to equal love. To suggest otherwise is disrespectful of *me*.

Failing to respect a couple's individual definition of cheating is distrespectful of that couple.

I have nothing against dating a single straight, but a married straight? No way! Even if hubby is happy with the situation that’s just too much baggage that I don’t need.

If you are "dating", doesn't that imply a romantic relationship? Do we "date" friends?

Also, if she is "dating" you, is she streight? I would think if a married woman is dating you, she's Bi-something.

If you don't want to date married women. Fine. Whatever. Just don't disrespect us by saying that we don't take our relationships seriously or that we don't take other women seriously or that we don't take you seriously.

Please try to understand that we aren't all alike.

 

[angela146]

Hello all.
I have some thoughts. Yes I agree Angela, for me the primary problem is how to find someone.
The issue starts with - I'm in a marriage that i'm not looking to leave so this means I would want to meet someone I could explore with but I am not looking for a full blown romantic relationship. This is why I like the idea of Friends with Benefits (but still how does one meet such a person if none of my current friends would be potential candidates) and I would consider a threesome (including dh).

Find a woman friend who likes to have sex with friends without it being about love, even if she is a hetero-only woman. Of course, if she's hetero-only, you and she aren't going to be having sex.

However... you can talk about having friends-with-benefits relationships and find out how she does it. Maybe she knows other women who are bi and have the same attitude.

My point is that you can find a woman who is interested in at least some of what you are interested in and make friends with her. Compare notes. Network.

That said, I don't have a clue how to meet someone who is looking for the same. Also I have no problem with the other woman being more experienced than me, in fact it might be a good idea (this might be a different issue by it's self).
I've never really been one to make "first contact" even before I met dh...which was many years ago. So I really don't think I know how at all.

I'm definitely curious to see what the rest of you have to say on this.

In addition to networking, try just making eye-contact with a woman you like at a distance. Hold it for just a little bit longer than comfortable and see what happens. See what kind of reaction you get. (She might ask if she has a zit on her nose).

Watch her eyes. Does she look like a woman who is interested in looking back at you or does she look like she would rather look at bird poop? Does she smile and look away then look back?

If she asks why you are looking at her, gage her reaction. If she seems friendly, be *somewhat* honest "You look good today!" or "I love that eye shadow. Where did you find it?"

Remember, what you are really hoping for is to find a woman who responds by making a move on you. If you've never done it before, it really helps to find someone who has.

Get used to looking at other women and getting looked at by other women. Study reactions.

Learn how to smile.

Being outted - hence the title of this thread, "discretion" - I don't care what anyone else does in his/her bedroom, it's their business and I feel like what I do in mine is my own business. For me it's not about being "outed" it's simply a matter of privacy.

Macy

That's a big thing for me too. That's why I only seek out close friends. I always look for a good friendship first. *But* I have the luxury of experience.

Once you have done it once or twice it gets to be a lot easier.

Another thing you can do - especially if you are married - is to be open about being in favor of same-sex marriage.

If the topic comes up, speak up: "Hey, my marriage isn't going to be threatened by same-sex marriage. I'm all for it! I think gays and lesbians ought to have the chance to have the same happiness in life that my husband and I have."

That way you aren't advertising that you're Bi, you're just saying that you're not homophobic. But you might be surprised a while later by someone privately saying "thanks" to you... and she might be gay.

 

[angela146]

I don't feel that this problem has anything to do with being bisexual. It's a very common problem also in the gay/lez community. "How do two femmes, who have an attraction to each other, over come shyness and express that attraction, without stepping outside of their own comfort zone?"

True, the *problem* might be the same but I'm not sure that the *solution* is the same. And the reason I'm not sure is that I don't know what actually works between two single femmes. In fact, I've never really been single so that whole area is a big mystery to me.

Since I don't like stepping out of my comfort zone, I personally stay with assertive (butch) males and females. For me, a strong part of my sexuality is seeing, knowing the other's desire.

Assertive does not necessarily = butch. There are lots of shy butch women and I've seen some really assertive femmes too.

I do though have a question for all of you.

I'm single and considered myself lesbian until a short while ago. For me personally, I simply think that in my bisexuality, I could have either a monogamous life-partner from either gender.

Yet, a lot of you are married. Therefore, do you think of having relationships with more than one person as:
A. Cheating
B. Polygamy/Polyamory
C. Swinging
D. Open Marriage (spouse monogam, you polygam)
E. Something else

Would you consider having a relationship with a man cheating, but with a woman not?

In my case, my husband is hetero. I'm bi.

We see it as a form of polyamory. We have had threesomes with both another man and another woman. We have each had relationships with other people one on one.

We've never been with another couple.

For us, "cheating" means doing it without prior permission.

We talk about other people when we're along in bed and we both know who the other would really like to have a relationship (or even a one night stand) with.

There are some people who we have given each other permission ahead of time: "If you ever have a chance with Claire, you don't need to ask."

We also have others who are off-limits for one reason or another. "If you ever try anything with one of my sisters..."

We've talked with each other - and fantasized with each other - about almost everyone we both know. For the most part, if it's a friend or acquaintance who would be close enough to maybe have something happen, we each know how the other feels.

If not, if it's someone we haven't talked about or someone who isn't a mutual friend, then the answer is "no" unless we talk about it. A few times, I've been pursued and have said something like, "I have to talk to Bill first...".

We *always* tell each other afterward, sharing the juicy details. We're honest about that with other people. That makes some people uncomfortable but it's not an option.

We're a couple first. Nobody gets to have a secret relationship with either of us.

 

[SweetErika]

I hate to say it but have you tried online dating??? It could be a very good option especially if you're wanting to be discreet about it.

What do you think?

Why do you "hate to say it"? I've met most of my bi friends and girlfriends online - I find it a great way to meet like-minded women with similar interests. I've always advertised who I am and that I'm looking for other women who are looking for friendship first, and possibly more if we're lucky enough to click in that way too because that sums it up nicely for me. I'd meet more women if I was okay with NSA-ish sex, but I'm not, so I choose to have fewer partners. *shrug*

It's not hard to meet bi women if you're really looking, Macy (and everyone else who's asked this question). For me, it's difficult to find bi women who have all of the qualities I want/need in a friend/lover, wants the same type of relationship and who finds me to be as good as a match as I find them. I'm very discriminating and have still managed to have several relationships in the past four years. '

Oh, and I've never looked in the "lesbian pool," as I've yet to hear from one who's interested in more than casual sex OR a friendship with a woman who has a male S.O.. I'm sure some are out there, but I figure the pool is small enough that it's not worth my time.

My point is that I don't have too much trouble even without lesbians, bars, etc., as long as I'm willing and able to put time and effort into searching and dating.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

This thread reminds me of that statement from Return of the Jedi where Obi-wan's ghost tells Luke, "Luke, you are going to find that many of the truths that we cling to depend greatly on our point of view."

That's how it is here. Angela and Nici each have their points of view, and both have some truth to them. I don't care for double standards, but some guys don't seem to have an issue with other women, just other men. I wrote an essay on cheating recently, which expressed my own views on that subject. Mutual consent and honesty are key here, regardless of sex. If the couple agrees that same-sex encounters are okay, but opposite sex are not, that's their right. It doesn't make sense to me, but I've heard of it, and that's their right. My own relationship has very similar rules to Angela's, to be honest.

Sweet Erika is another case. Hers has similar rules, but her SO has apparently not chosen to exercise his option yet....that's also his right. He has pregnancy concerns, correct me, Erika, if I remembered that wrongly. Perhaps he'd feel safer at some point with an infertile woman. Then again, finding those can be tricky, so he'd probably be making that the exception rather than the rule, unless he had simply a more long-term deal with the girl (that's assuming that Erika went along with that, also their business). That's just a case that I'm using as an example. In any case, that's their relationship, and they're free to set their rules. It's not so much a double standard as one partner weighing his options carefully before acting on them. That's something that I can understand and respect.

In my case, pregnancy is one of the few things not permitted in our relationship. It has no real chance of happening to my SO, since she had her tubes cut and tied. Since we have agreed to use condoms with other partners, anyway, I simply use the kind that have spermicide. It's easier for me to do that than rely on the other woman to be telling the truth about birth-control or sterility. To be completely on the safe side, however, I expect that I will eventually have a vasectomy.

I'm simply saying all of this to make the point that we all have our own rules that work for us, and as long as they are fair, honest, and willingly (rather than grudgingly) accepted by both partners, they are perfectly fine. Consenting adults are, well, consenting adults. Just because I don't personally have any interest in the cuckold lifestyle, for example, doesn't mean that a willing cuckold and his wife can't make that choice for themselves, provided that's by mutual consent and both are happy with it.

There are some cases where same-sex relationships allow only opposite-sex outside partners. My friend Christopher Maxwell took one of my characters from a story (with my permission) and wrote a story where two men are lovers and allow themselves outside women only. That's their right and it's an interesting development. That's just one example, albeit fictitious.

 

[Minouners]

Why do you "hate to say it"? I've met most of my bi friends and girlfriends online - I find it a great way to meet like-minded women with similar interests. I've always advertised who I am and that I'm looking for other women who are looking for friendship first, and possibly more if we're lucky enough to click in that way too because that sums it up nicely for me. I'd meet more women if I was okay with NSA-ish sex, but I'm not, so I choose to have fewer partners. *shrug*

I said that I hate to say it since everytime I seem to mention that option to people I know, they think I'm stupid or just desperate. I didn't want to make it seem like anyone was. I think you can understand that.

And I'll agree. Lesbians are not too keen on being with a woman who has a man in her life already. I'd go on about that but I won't!

 

[nici]

1. "Cheating" is defined by the people *in* the relationship. It isn't fair to impose an external standard of cheating onto someone else's marriage/relationship.

I would agree with you except that we are talking about a relationship that involves more than just that couple. There is a third person involved, and there might also be other people involved such as spouse of third person, children of both marriages, etc.

“Nunc lento sonitu dicunt, morieris” No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind...

So long as others feel the consequences of actions taken by that couple, those others also have rights of regress and statement towards that couple.

2. A cheating definition that allows other women but not other men, doesn't necessarily mean that sex with a woman isn't "serious". It might just mean that the woman can have sex with other women without it being about love. Some of us have sex with friends, and some of us take friendship very seriously.

Any definition of cheating remains cheating. If a husband admits to his wife of a “just sex” affair with his female lover does that make it any less cheating?

Yet, I do acknowledge that there are those who can actually have “just sex” without any emotional involvement. However, how often in even swinging environments do people step beyond the boundaries of unemotional sport sex and begin emotional involvement with their “fuck buddies”?

Also, is not the condition where one of a couple seduces a third (non-swinger) into first a relationship than into a ménage de trios, a predatory condition? Is not the third person possibly seduced into a situation they wouldn’t normally accept? If in such a case, is not the third person being cheated upon by the seducer person of the couple? (Do not say it does not happen. I know it happens, and being that third person hurts!)

Some here have said that lesbians do not want anything to do with married bisexuals. In general, I agree. Why would we? Too much baggage for the one, then even if it is only dating, “most” people would like to have the emotional option available. Why go to all that trouble?

Yet, lesbians do not have “much” against bisexuals “in general”. There exist tons of bisexuals within the lesbian community. Pure homosexuality is as seldom as pure heterosexuality. Most of us are somewhere in between. Lesbianism is not only a sexual orientation it is a statement and a scene.

Yet, maybe I too would like to have a friend with bennies and it doesn’t irritate me to know that she leaves me and goes back to a male, a male who knows about the two of us, then why not? I am sure it happens. We are no different than straights in that aspect. There are bisexuals and lesbians in the gay scene that swing and have non-committal impersonal sex just the same as others. There are also those in the gay scene who do not consider het sex gross.

3. Some people are polyamorous. Even if a woman *does* fall in love with women, they as a couple might not consider it cheating if they/she are poly.But that's your orientation. For some of us, sex with a woman is far *less* emotional than it is with a man.

Polygamy and polyamory is something completely different. In such extended family relationships communication with all persons involved functions at a higher level of intensity and volume than normal. Since everything is in the open, and accepted by all, there can be no cheating between members of that extended family.

One-sided polyamory isn’t polyamory though. That’s still cheating. “Honey, I’m not cheating on you with her. I love her. That makes it not cheating.” Ya sure, talk to the hand. My left because you’re not right. (I’m not stating that a poly V triad is not polyamory. So long as at all times, everyone is open and honest from the beginnings of the relationships, it is not cheating. It is though cheating when such relationships appear as an after the fact.)

For me, sex with a woman is about friendship, not love. I don't get romantic feelings for women. I don't get "swept off of my feet" by a woman. I don't get any of the deeply passionate feelings for women that I get for men.

I’m sure you know of the Kinsey scale on bisexuality, and the psychological theses that we all are bisexual to some extent, at some time in our sexual development. Since each of us is unique, and our learned experiences and social upbringing often controls our cognitive and intuitive thinking towards possible life-partnerships, I would be very surprised if you did have the same thoughts and emotions that I do.

I know from friends involved in the swing lifestyle that feminine bisexual practices seem to be quite common. How much is “true bisexuality” and how much is pseudo bisexuality in such an environment, where bisexuality can mean being considered sexier, more desired is hard to say. Maybe even hard for those involved to acknowledge and explain.

Still, so long that swinging stays within its own environment, an environment where emotional sex is unwanted, I don’t feel bisexual swinging has to be explained. In that environment, no one cares about the emotional why. It’s just sex.

I do though have a problem when swingers take their philosophy outside of their swinger environment and into the vanilla world. It’s predatory and swinging’s rules of play are then the abnormality and unknown to all the players. Again, stacked deck of cards and that’s cheating.

There really are bisexual women in the world. I happen to be one of them. Not all of us are biamorous.

Sex does not have to equal love. To suggest otherwise is disrespectful of *me*.

*You* are then unique in that aspect and need to understand that.

The vast majority of people (even those males who claim they do) cannot completely separate sex from emotion. Sex is to ninety percent mental gymnastics. Therefore, it is emotionally based. What those emotions are is a different story, and libraries could and are filled with books written on that very subject.

Love is also a word I have problems with. There is no specific definition of love, and anyone of us can and does love multiple people all at the same time. Just in different forms, reasons, and ways.

Though I will admit that a zippless fuck can happen, is it really that common in swinging or do you not have some form of emotional involvement with your swinging partners? If yes, then are you not walking a tightrope in some ways?

 

[Minouners]

I would agree with you except that we are talking about a relationship that involves more than just that couple. There is a third person involved, and there might also be other people involved such as spouse of third person, children of both marriages, etc.

“Nunc lento sonitu dicunt, morieris” No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind...

So long as others feel the consequences of actions taken by that couple, those others also have rights of regress and statement towards that couple.


Any definition of cheating remains cheating. If a husband admits to his wife of a “just sex” affair with his female lover does that make it any less cheating?

Yet, I do acknowledge that there are those who can actually have “just sex” without any emotional involvement. However, how often in even swinging environments do people step beyond the boundaries of unemotional sport sex and begin emotional involvement with their “fuck buddies”?

Also, is not the condition where one of a couple seduces a third (non-swinger) into first a relationship than into a ménage de trios, a predatory condition? Is not the third person possibly seduced into a situation they wouldn’t normally accept? If in such a case, is not the third person being cheated upon by the seducer person of the couple? (Do not say it does not happen. I know it happens, and being that third person hurts!)

Some here have said that lesbians do not want anything to do with married bisexuals. In general, I agree. Why would we? Too much baggage for the one, then even if it is only dating, “most” people would like to have the emotional option available. Why go to all that trouble?

Yet, lesbians do not have “much” against bisexuals “in general”. There exist tons of bisexuals within the lesbian community. Pure homosexuality is as seldom as pure heterosexuality. Most of us are somewhere in between. Lesbianism is not only a sexual orientation it is a statement and a scene.

Yet, maybe I too would like to have a friend with bennies and it doesn’t irritate me to know that she leaves me and goes back to a male, a male who knows about the two of us, then why not? I am sure it happens. We are no different than straights in that aspect. There are bisexuals and lesbians in the gay scene that swing and have non-committal impersonal sex just the same as others. There are also those in the gay scene who do not consider het sex gross.


Polygamy and polyamory is something completely different. In such extended family relationships communication with all persons involved functions at a higher level of intensity and volume than normal. Since everything is in the open, and accepted by all, there can be no cheating between members of that extended family.

One-sided polyamory isn’t polyamory though. That’s still cheating. “Honey, I’m not cheating on you with her. I love her. That makes it not cheating.” Ya sure, talk to the hand. My left because you’re not right. (I’m not stating that a poly V triad is not polyamory. So long as at all times, everyone is open and honest from the beginnings of the relationships, it is not cheating. It is though cheating when such relationships appear as an after the fact.)


I’m sure you know of the Kinsey scale on bisexuality, and the psychological theses that we all are bisexual to some extent, at some time in our sexual development. Since each of us is unique, and our learned experiences and social upbringing often controls our cognitive and intuitive thinking towards possible life-partnerships, I would be very surprised if you did have the same thoughts and emotions that I do.

I know from friends involved in the swing lifestyle that feminine bisexual practices seem to be quite common. How much is “true bisexuality” and how much is pseudo bisexuality in such an environment, where bisexuality can mean being considered sexier, more desired is hard to say. Maybe even hard for those involved to acknowledge and explain.

Still, so long that swinging stays within its own environment, an environment where emotional sex is unwanted, I don’t feel bisexual swinging has to be explained. In that environment, no one cares about the emotional why. It’s just sex.

I do though have a problem when swingers take their philosophy outside of their swinger environment and into the vanilla world. It’s predatory and swinging’s rules of play are then the abnormality and unknown to all the players. Again, stacked deck of cards and that’s cheating.


*You* are then unique in that aspect and need to understand that.

The vast majority of people (even those males who claim they do) cannot completely separate sex from emotion. Sex is to ninety percent mental gymnastics. Therefore, it is emotionally based. What those emotions are is a different story, and libraries could and are filled with books written on that very subject.

Love is also a word I have problems with. There is no specific definition of love, and anyone of us can and does love multiple people all at the same time. Just in different forms, reasons, and ways.

Though I will admit that a zippless fuck can happen, is it really that common in swinging or do you not have some form of emotional involvement with your swinging partners? If yes, then are you not walking a tightrope in some ways?

Nici... wow... you are one smart/educated and fantastic woman. Wish there was someone like you (or you) close to where I am... sigh...

Did you come up with all of that???

 

[nici]

Assertive does not necessarily = butch. There are lots of shy butch women and I've seen some really assertive femmes too.

I feel we are misunderstanding each other through semantics and personal point of observation. So here is how I understand these terms:

In the lesbian and gay scene being butch or femme have a very defined meaning.

Yet, an outsider might misunderstand the meanings quite easily. You might see a lesbian feminist and think she is butch, while from her sexual preferences she is very femme and not butch at all.

A power lesbian is most often butch, yet because she is also a lipstick lesbian you would think of her as being femme, which she is definitely not. She might even be into D/s and power exchange as a top.

Butch and femme are the roles each has in a relationship. Though they might exist stringently in some, many switch, so just as in BDSM terminology, there are tops (butch) and bottoms (femme) and sometimes we flip or are flipped.

Yet, within the lesbian community there are lots of scenes… feminist, lipstick, crunchy-munchy or granola, etc. Within these scenes are both butch and femme.

Just the same, as amongst swingers, where non-swingers are called vanilla, people outside of the gay scene are straights… even if they are “a little bent”. Therefore, a swinger bisexual wife is still a straight and depending on her "other" lifestyle attitude might even be considered a breeder. A single bisexual female, who isn’t out of the closet and lives as a het, dates males, is a straight… she lives in the straight world.

 

[nici]

Nici... wow... you are one smart/educated and fantastic woman. Wish there was someone like you (or you) close to where I am... sigh...

Did you come up with all of that???

(Beet red in face & neck.)

No, just pounded into me academically.

Btw, I really like the hair styling on those girls in your picture. I’m thinking of getting something like that, just a little different in the back, but still with the jagged, layered appearance. Oh if I only had the courage!

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Personally, I know that I wouldn't try to force or trick a third person into a poly or swinging situation who didn't really want it....nor would my SO. It doesn't matter whether that other person was male or female, gay, straight, or bi.

As for emotions, those exist in a continuum. There are raw lust, friendly lust, infatuation, and various other degrees....not always equal. Just because I might be fond of a more casual partner doesn't mean that I want a long-term relationship with her or him.

I don't feel the need to proseylitize anyone into this lifestyle. I might have opinions on whether or not they can handle the exclusive commitment required by monogamy. I might even express my views. But I wouldn't try to "convert" anyone. I don't press such issues. I state my views and then soon change the subject. And if I think that someone is happier being monogamous, I honestly state that, too. But, again, I don't nag or push on such things.

As to swinging bi activities, while far more common among women, that counts more as "bicuriosity" than bisexuality per se. If in the process a woman finds out that she has a strong attraction to or interest in other women, more power to her. I don't think that any woman should be pushed or nagged to try girl/girl if it truly doesn't interest her. I also regret that male bicuriosity or bisexuality isn't as widely encouraged as the female version. If a man enjoys the sight of two or more women together, fine. But he shouldn't try to push his partner into it against her own inclinations. Nor should a woman with her male partner. Nor should they get all upset or homophobic if two men start to enjoy each other's bodies by mutual consent.

I guess that I'm a little different from some of my fellow swingers in that regard. Those who try to force conformity do not reflect well on the poly/swinging community/scene/subculture. It shouldn't be about conformity, even for voyeuristic purposes. I guess that you can say that there is dissent even within the poly ranks.

I won't comment on that whole butch/femme dynamic, as I am not a lesbian and have no experience on which to base any such comments.

 

[Minouners]

(Beet red in face & neck.)

No, just pounded into me academically.

Btw, I really like the hair styling on those girls in your picture. I’m thinking of getting something like that, just a little different in the back, but still with the jagged, layered appearance. Oh if I only had the courage!

I think you should go ahead with it. I'm not sure what you look like of course but I think that hairstyle is sexy. I'm sure you'd feel sexy having it. I would but you see... I don't have the face for it.

And I think you're just great!

By the way, I'm curious to know about what the differences are in - "feminist, lipstick, crunchy-munchy or granola, etc. Within these scenes are both butch and femme" ?

 

[Macy02]

Wow!!! what volumes of information you all have put on here. Thanks to everyone.

I really liked some of the suggestions and plan to try out some, networking....hmmmm never thought of it in this way but if it works for business why not pleasure.

Anyway you guys are great I look forward to reading more....and hopefully having something useful to contribute.

 

[nici]

I think you should go ahead with it. I'm not sure what you look like of course but I think that hairstyle is sexy. I'm sure you'd feel sexy having it. I would but you see... I don't have the face for it.

And I think you're just great!

By the way, I'm curious to know about what the differences are in - "feminist, lipstick, crunchy-munchy or granola, etc. Within these scenes are both butch and femme" ?

Oh boy where to start?

Of course, the scene language in lesbian communities varies a lot, but there is also a lot that is universal.

A lesbian feminist is also called a political lesbian. Therefore, she will refuse to fit into a patriarchal impositioned, phallogocentric written, gender role… the production of the Heterosexual Matrix. This group is of course not homogene. There exist large variances. Names such as Rita Mae Brown, Judith Butler, Judith Halberstam, and Gayle Rubin were/are some of the more prominent Womyn's culturists. Much of the philosophies of lesbian feminists come out of the feminist movement of the 60s and 70s and also the punk rock and hard rock eras.

Lesbian feminists are gay activists, yet their interests will be dominated by their philosophy that in a Womyn’s society, men have no place and no say. They will be pro gay rights, but also disinterested in male homosexual problems. Within the movement are sometimes very strong opinions contrary to official gay rights opinions; disassociation or even confrontation with liberal sex and omnisexual movements and lifestyles such as swinging, BDSM and polyamory, bisexuals are cowardly queers, against considering post-op M2F transsexuals to be female and post-op F2M transsexuals to be male, etc.

Even though both butch and femme lesbian feminists will refuse to dress along the heterosexual definitions of femininity, they will also refuse to masculinize. Dresses and skirts, cosmetics and such are expression of male dominance and sexism.

Anything you could think of in the feminist movement is in the lesbian feminist movement, only the extended twist brought about through the absence of any (or little) desire to coexist with males.

I personally feel that power lesbians and lipstick lesbians belong in the same sub-scene. Both use or desire to conform or even radicalize the norm or social image associated with heterosexual feminine dress, our lesbian right to traditional femininity. Power lesbians are though butch. They love the expression of strength and power. Most will be very successful businesswomen or politicians. Both will be extremely interested almost fetishist in clothing, dresses, skirts, makeup, high heels, and of course feminine mannerisms. Quite a few fashion models are lipstick lesbians. I would guess that for most straights unless a power or lipstick lesbian “comes out to you”, you’d never know. You need very strong gaydar if this is your type of woman. Politically both wish, in contrary to the lesbian feminist, to coexist within heterosexual society. Other names used would be: Sapphist, high femme and doily dyke.

Even though I am bisexual, I consider myself a lipstick lesbian. I have the same problems that all lipstick lesbians do. Queers say that I’m trying to pass for straight, that I’m a sissy and too afraid to confront het society. In gay bars, I am always asked if I belong, or if I am just slumming. In any new bar, I have to prove myself. If I come out to males, and some times even couples, they usually start thinking of FMF threesomes. Because of this, I have a very hard time just being het with a male. They think I should be acting like some bisexual nymphomaniac. I like sex, but in some ways, I’m more prudish than many hets.

Simply put, a crunchy-munchy or granola lesbian is a new-age lesbian. A variation in this might also be considered the family lesbian couple that bare or adopt children… kind of the lesbian styled breeder… pursuing the American dream.

Still, butch is more assertive, and femme is more passive. That has nothing to do with being shy or not. The roles don’t always have to be that way, but sometimes and with some, it always is so. A stone butch is always butch, and a stone femme is always femme.

A good place to meet lesbians and bisexuals sympathetic towards newbie bisexuals would also be in coffee shops and bookstores that cater more to our lifestyle and us.

Still, if you do have a male SO, I personally would only recommend swinger events. Much of the bad name bisexuals have in the lesbian community is from married bisexual women and couples preying. For some, the lesbian community is a secure haven away from male and heterosexual abuse suffered. It is just simply disrespectful to intruded with ulterior motives.

 

[Minouners]

Oh boy where to start?

Of course, the scene language in lesbian communities varies a lot, but there is also a lot that is universal.

A lesbian feminist is also called a political lesbian. Therefore, she will refuse to fit into a patriarchal impositioned, phallogocentric written, gender role… the production of the Heterosexual Matrix. This group is of course not homogene. There exist large variances. Names such as Rita Mae Brown, Judith Butler, Judith Halberstam, and Gayle Rubin were/are some of the more prominent Womyn's culturists. Much of the philosophies of lesbian feminists come out of the feminist movement of the 60s and 70s and also the punk rock and hard rock eras.

Lesbian feminists are gay activists, yet their interests will be dominated by their philosophy that in a Womyn’s society, men have no place and no say. They will be pro gay rights, but also disinterested in male homosexual problems. Within the movement are sometimes very strong opinions contrary to official gay rights opinions; disassociation or even confrontation with liberal sex and omnisexual movements and lifestyles such as swinging, BDSM and polyamory, bisexuals are cowardly queers, against considering post-op M2F transsexuals to be female and post-op F2M transsexuals to be male, etc.

Even though both butch and femme lesbian feminists will refuse to dress along the heterosexual definitions of femininity, they will also refuse to masculinize. Dresses and skirts, cosmetics and such are expression of male dominance and sexism.

Anything you could think of in the feminist movement is in the lesbian feminist movement, only the extended twist brought about through the absence of any (or little) desire to coexist with males.

I personally feel that power lesbians and lipstick lesbians belong in the same sub-scene. Both use or desire to conform or even radicalize the norm or social image associated with heterosexual feminine dress, our lesbian right to traditional femininity. Power lesbians are though butch. They love the expression of strength and power. Most will be very successful businesswomen or politicians. Both will be extremely interested almost fetishist in clothing, dresses, skirts, makeup, high heels, and of course feminine mannerisms. Quite a few fashion models are lipstick lesbians. I would guess that for most straights unless a power or lipstick lesbian “comes out to you”, you’d never know. You need very strong gaydar if this is your type of woman. Politically both wish, in contrary to the lesbian feminist, to coexist within heterosexual society. Other names used would be: Sapphist, high femme and doily dyke.

Even though I am bisexual, I consider myself a lipstick lesbian. I have the same problems that all lipstick lesbians do. Queers say that I’m trying to pass for straight, that I’m a sissy and too afraid to confront het society. In gay bars, I am always asked if I belong, or if I am just slumming. In any new bar, I have to prove myself. If I come out to males, and some times even couples, they usually start thinking of FMF threesomes. Because of this, I have a very hard time just being het with a male. They think I should be acting like some bisexual nymphomaniac. I like sex, but in some ways, I’m more prudish than many hets.

Simply put, a crunchy-munchy or granola lesbian is a new-age lesbian. A variation in this might also be considered the family lesbian couple that bare or adopt children… kind of the lesbian styled breeder… pursuing the American dream.

Still, butch is more assertive, and femme is more passive. That has nothing to do with being shy or not. The roles don’t always have to be that way, but sometimes and with some, it always is so. A stone butch is always butch, and a stone femme is always femme.

A good place to meet lesbians and bisexuals sympathetic towards newbie bisexuals would also be in coffee shops and bookstores that cater more to our lifestyle and us.

Still, if you do have a male SO, I personally would only recommend swinger events. Much of the bad name bisexuals have in the lesbian community is from married bisexual women and couples preying. For some, the lesbian community is a secure haven away from male and heterosexual abuse suffered. It is just simply disrespectful to intruded with ulterior motives.

Hey Nici

Thank you for that. I learned something new today! YAY! hehehe (I'll call it my b.d. present! hehe)

I am not married but do live with someone. So I guess I should stay away from gay bars? I hadn't realized that it was disrespectful. I'm just at the point in my life where I don't know where I belong anymore. I thought that by looking around I could figure it out... guess not.

Maybe like you, I'm also a lipstick lesbian but I really can't say for 100% certainty. I think if anything being bisexual is more confusing and frustrating that anything else. If only I could experience being with a woman just once, then I might finally know... or maybe I'm just being naive.