Do you believe in God?

[Homburg]

I actually find the thought of the circus ride ending at some forseeable point a good deal. In a lot of ways, I prefer the thought of worms and nothing to other posited options. But I do think there's some uniting thing that spits all the things that are out of said void.

This is one reason why I have trouble with the whole god, heaven, hell concept. Death is what gives life meaning. The ending is what causes us to strive, to push, to savour. If we lived forever, what would be fun about roller coasters and pretty days? There will, after all, be more. I am not maso enough to think that hell would be interesting, nor dull enough to think that you wouldn't get used to it all after a while, and Heaven is the never ending pretty day. No thanks, either way.

The buddhists had the right idea. Be a good person, and you might not come back. So, yeah, the ride was fun, but I want off at the end.

 

[graceanne]

That's what I read too. I've had a bitch of a day and I'm on glass two of the red. *hiccup*


Wha-? I'm Jewish. We drink!

Jesus drank. Wine, even. lol

I used to work with this woman who was a full on Holy Roller. I don’t know the name brand of the religion she practiced but it’s the one where they speak in tongues and dance around a lot. Anyway, in her never ending quest for converts, she would always invite all her co-workers to attend the Easter/Xmas musicals at her church. Well, I’m always up for free entertainment, so I said yes to the Easter invitation.

Being raised by non-believers, I had only a rudimentary knowledge of Christian lore – eg. Christ turns into a rabbit once every spring and delivers chocolate eggs to children the world over.

I watched the performance, which was quite professional, and enjoyed the story, at least what I could make of it. When it was all said and done, my co-worker asked me what I’d thought of it all and I told her how impressed I was by the acting, singing, sets, etc. I also told her that my very favorite character was the guy in the dark blue robe; I loved him!

“That was Satan,” she said, with a just-bit-into-a-lemon expression on her face.

In retrospect, I should have known.

Ah holy rollers. They're protestant, and their specific denomination is Pentecostal. I agree - they're a bit weird. Well, some are. You have to be careful when it comes to pentecostal churches. Some are legit, they do practice talking in tongues, but only in the structure that was specified in the bible for such things. They do not, however, laugh/roll/dance/whatever 'in the spirit'.

 

[Netzach]

This is one reason why I have trouble with the whole god, heaven, hell concept. Death is what gives life meaning. The ending is what causes us to strive, to push, to savour. If we lived forever, what would be fun about roller coasters and pretty days? There will, after all, be more. I am not maso enough to think that hell would be interesting, nor dull enough to think that you wouldn't get used to it all after a while, and Heaven is the never ending pretty day. No thanks, either way.

The buddhists had the right idea. Be a good person, and you might not come back. So, yeah, the ride was fun, but I want off at the end.

They also urge you to think about death constantly, trying to get at peace with the idea.

At least the militaristic Japanese guys I like best did.

 

[Netzach]

In drawing you also get more enamored of the space around things - the forms are defined by what's not there as much as what is. I think this is what I believe.

 

[graceanne]

This is one reason why I have trouble with the whole god, heaven, hell concept. Death is what gives life meaning. The ending is what causes us to strive, to push, to savour. If we lived forever, what would be fun about roller coasters and pretty days? There will, after all, be more. I am not maso enough to think that hell would be interesting, nor dull enough to think that you wouldn't get used to it all after a while, and Heaven is the never ending pretty day. No thanks, either way.

The buddhists had the right idea. Be a good person, and you might not come back. So, yeah, the ride was fun, but I want off at the end.

I, also, agree that death is not something to be feared. But the bible talks about tasks God gives us and stuff, so I don't think that heaven is everyone sitting around playing harps. For one thing, the Bible says that Jesus is preparing a home for us and a giant feast. I think that it'll be a blast!

I think death is rather like birth. It's the next step, the next place to go, the next thing to do. 'Cause, after all, life here would get boring after eternity.

 

[JMohegan]

They believe in the father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, they just believe they are separate entities, not parts of a whole. They believe that by worshiping Jesus we are breaking the commandment regarding worship of other gods. We believe that Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Ghost are parts of one, rather like water (it can be air, solid, and liquid but it's still water). It's complicated.

Thanks for explaining about the Witnesses.

Yes, I've heard the water analogy, and that's why I said I don't see the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Gods as the same thing. "God in 3 persons" is something unique to the Trinity, as far as I can tell.

My reading of the Bible was academic (and quite a while ago), but I'd also say that God in the OT has a really different personality from the NT version. The Christian version seems benevolent, understanding, and forgiving, whereas the pre-Jesus version was mostly vengeful and prone to getting seriously pissed off.

I understand that the OT is considered part of the Christian religion, but reading it as one big story, to me it seems as if the personality of God matured or softened or morphed or something when he had/became/split into his son. So I see the Jewish and Christian Gods as very different personas, and that's another distinction (in addition to the 3-in-1 thing).

 

[Arkhilokhus]

Can we qualify all the ones I forgot just under 'orthodox' and say theirs mini categories under that? Rather like Baptist and Nazarene under Protestant?

Oh, sure. And as far as I know, all Orthodox are trinitarian. The schisms didn't really start until well after the Council of Nicea (well, okay, the Arians, but they aren't around anymore - at least as a separate denomination).

 

[Homburg]

They also urge you to think about death constantly, trying to get at peace with the idea.

At least the militaristic Japanese guys I like best did.

Exactly. It's just death. My lone concern with death is the people I leave behind. For myself? Meh, I'll be dead. It's not like I'll be complaining.

--

I, also, agree that death is not something to be feared. But the bible talks about tasks God gives us and stuff, so I don't think that heaven is everyone sitting around playing harps. For one thing, the Bible says that Jesus is preparing a home for us and a giant feast. I think that it'll be a blast!

I think death is rather like birth. It's the next step, the next place to go, the next thing to do. 'Cause, after all, life here would get boring after eternity.

See, eternity of tasks. Not so exciting sounding. If life s boring here for an eternity, life would pretty much be boring anywhere after long enough. Sweet, sweet oblivion though? Nothing to be bored of there

 

[Netzach]

Whoa nelly, that's a commonly held Christian read on the OT G man if ever one was.

He's kind of a pill at times, sure. We're the first to admit it.

But hell, look at the incomprehensible world around you and reconcile that to pure love and forgiveness and you're liable to wind up in a locked ward.

The same guy who strikes people dead for seeming kicks also heard Sarah laugh, parted the water, made abstract dreamers like Joseph and poetic rock throwers like David into great leaders, and let Solomon drop the hottest little verses in our ear.

 

[JMohegan]

I will need to go look this up, but I thought there were denominations - protestant denominations - who believe that there is no Trinity there is just Christ, who is God.

Then who's the guy who "sent his son" or whatever? What happened to him?

 

[Netzach]

Exactly. It's just death. My lone concern with death is the people I leave behind. For myself? Meh, I'll be dead. It's not like I'll be complaining.

--



See, eternity of tasks. Not so exciting sounding. If life s boring here for an eternity, life would pretty much be boring anywhere after long enough. Sweet, sweet oblivion though? Nothing to be bored of there

That's my take on it. It's nice to think of my calcium carbonate giving way to some plants or something, or my flesh being crapped out onto daisies by vultures.

 

[Arkhilokhus]

My reading of the Bible was academic (and quite a while ago), but I'd also say that God in the OT has a really different personality from the NT version. The Christian version seems benevolent, understanding, and forgiving, whereas the pre-Jesus version was mostly vengeful and prone to getting seriously pissed off.

I understand that the OT is considered part of the Christian religion, but reading it as one big story, to me it seems as if the personality of God matured or softened or morphed or something when he had/became/split into his son. So I see the Jewish and Christian Gods as very different personas, and that's another distinction (in addition to the 3-in-1 thing).

There was an early group who came to be called Marcions, after their leader, who held that the Father spoken of in the NT was explicitly not the God of the OT. They were fairly anti-Jewish, as I recall.

 

[graceanne]

Thanks for explaining about the Witnesses.

Yes, I've heard the water analogy, and that's why I said I don't see the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Gods as the same thing. "God in 3 persons" is something unique to the Trinity, as far as I can tell.

I can't speak for other Christians, jews, and muslims, but I don't think our Gods are the same. I think they're SIMILAR. I'm pretty sure that K agrees.

My reading of the Bible was academic (and quite a while ago), but I'd also say that God in the OT has a really different personality from the NT version. The Christian version seems benevolent, understanding, and forgiving, whereas the pre-Jesus version was mostly vengeful and prone to getting seriously pissed off.

I understand that the OT is considered part of the Christian religion, but reading it as one big story, to me it seems as if the personality of God matured or softened or morphed or something when he had/became/split into his son. So I see the Jewish and Christian Gods as very different personas, and that's another distinction (in addition to the 3-in-1 thing).

What I understand about the differences in OT God and NT God is that the OT God was building up to the birth of Jesus. Now, because Jesus died for our sins, we don't have to and therefore the NT God can be loving and forgiving.

Honestly, I don't get it. I mean I understand the history and all that, but it's one of those things that I will have to ask Him when I get There. I believe that, in light of eternity, we are just infants. God is eternal and I am only 30. I think there are some thing that we just won't get. Rather like a two year old doesn't understand why I won't let him run into traffic or drink bleach.

What I do get and understand is that he IS. I know he IS because I've felt his presence. I've seen him and his influence in my life. I know He loves me, and I know He lived, and I know He died. And I know he finds me vastly amusing. lol And knowing those things, I know that He has a reason, and I hope that someday I'll understand. Because, from what I see, there's a lot that's not fair.

 

[MisterSir]

Logic is on the side of the agnostic. Agnostics understand that you can't prove a negative, something the active atheists never seem to comprehend.

The way I see it is that it's a "burden of proof" type-thing. Religious folk are the ones asserting their god/s exist, and if they want me to believe, the onus is on them to prove it rather than me to disprove it; since they can't prove it, I don't believe it.

Not trying to attack anybody, but the last paragraph of what graceanne said above is what really gets me about the Judeo-Christian idea of God. I have Christian friends, and it seems to me that the only difference between them and me is that they have faith and I don't - we're both looking at the same world, there's clearly no concrete evidence available, but they have faith that God exists and I don't, and it's this faith that means...I don't know, they're guaranteed God's love and a place in Heaven.

The problem is that faith isn't something you can cultivate. You can born with it or develop it after some kind of religious experience, but I can't sit down and tell myself "I'm going to grow faith that God exists". And the thing that simultaneously frightens and enrages me is the thought that if God does indeed exist and he is as Catholics (to pick a denomination at random, not victimising Catholics) paint him, this lack of faith means I'm going to Hell. No ifs, no ands, no buts - I don't have faith so I'm going to Hell. This isn't a reason I don't believe in God and I understand that, if he exists, I'm never going to comprehend his plan, it's just something that makes me sick.

 

[graceanne]

Whoa nelly, that's a commonly held Christian read on the OT G man if ever one was.

He's kind of a pill at times, sure. We're the first to admit it.

But hell, look at the incomprehensible world around you and reconcile that to pure love and forgiveness and you're liable to wind up in a locked ward.

The same guy who strikes people dead for seeming kicks also heard Sarah laugh, parted the water, made abstract dreamers like Joseph and poetic rock throwers like David into great leaders, and let Solomon drop the hottest little verses in our ear.

He's also the god that Hagar, who was abused and abandoned by his follower, named a valley 'God Sees' after. Because she knew that He saw her grief, and that He understood.

 

[JMohegan]

Whoa nelly, that's a commonly held Christian read on the OT G man if ever one was.

He's kind of a pill at times, sure. We're the first to admit it.

But hell, look at the incomprehensible world around you and reconcile that to pure love and forgiveness and you're liable to wind up in a locked ward.

The same guy who strikes people dead for seeming kicks also heard Sarah laugh, parted the water, made abstract dreamers like Joseph and poetic rock throwers like David into great leaders, and let Solomon drop the hottest little verses in our ear.

Did I say the world around us can be reconciled with the love and forgiveness thing?

I'm talking about the STORY. The forgiveness of sins vs. salt pillars and genocidal floods and killing of first born sons because their parents screwed up.

 

[Netzach]

Did I say the world around us can be reconciled with the love and forgiveness thing?

I'm talking about the STORY. The forgiveness of sins vs. salt pillars and genocidal floods and killing of first born sons because their parents screwed up.

There are tons of examples of forgiving and loving in the OT - it's not a simple vs. anything.

Unless you're trying to argue for this evolutionary, pro Christian kind of outlook, where it's better and more sophisticated in book 2.

Which most writers you encounter in your religion 101 continuum of Augustine, Kierkegaard etc. surprise surprise are.

 

[Netzach]

The leap of logic in Christianity isn't that you can't be forgiven in traditional Judaism.

The old recipe was think about it, feel bad about it, be punished according to law if need be, and then pay the guy at the temple for a couple of bullocks or a goat or a dove or seven so you can make it up.

Jesus basically pared down the requirement.

 

[LilyBart]

I wouldn't guarantee it, there might be a smaller denomination that I don't know of. But of the Christ following religions, that I can think of, are Catholicism, Protestants, Jehovah Witnesses, and Mormons. (If anyone can think of one I'm forgetting, pipe in.) Under the Protestant category are several other smaller catergories (baptist, nazarene, etc.). Catholics, Protestants, and Mormons all believe in the Trinity.

I think this a good generalization but I think there are some differences.

Mormons believe in the Trinity as 3 different persons with one purpose, which different than your wonderful water analogy in a later post.

Unitarians, who I think of as Protestant, believe in one God/one person, hence their name.

And I was under the impression that Eastern Orthodox religions recognized the Trinity. Actually, I thought that any religion that observed/honored the Nicene Creed believed in the Trinity. (Mormons do not support the Nicene Creed.)

Just my contribution to the definition discussion.

I'm an ethnic Catholic, which is not so different from being Jewish. The religious and the cultural are pretty tightly knit so sometimes its hard to see where one end and the other begins.

I don't know what I believe in, although I know I am spiritual. Some days I'm more spiritual and some days way less. But that doesn't stop me from having palms tied in the shape of a cross hanging in my house. I'll take what I can get.

~LB

 

[Netzach]

I think this a good generalization but I think there are some differences.

Mormons believe in the Trinity as 3 different persons with one purpose, which different than your wonderful water analogy in a later post.

Unitarians, who I think of as Protestant, believe in one God/one person, hence their name.

And I was under the impression that Eastern Orthodox religions recognized the Trinity. Actually, I thought that any religion that observed/honored the Nicene Creed believed in the Trinity. (Mormons do not support the Nicene Creed.)

Just my contribution to the definition discussion.

I'm an ethnic Catholic, which is not so different from being Jewish. The religious and the cultural are pretty tightly knit so sometimes its hard to see where one end and the other begins.

I don't know what I believe in, although I know I am spiritual. Some days I'm more spiritual and some days way less. But that doesn't stop me from having palms tied in the shape of a cross hanging in my house. I'll take what I can get.

~LB

off topic, but I have this freaking insane obsession with Catholic religious objects from the lovely to the kitsch.

 

[JMohegan]

There are tons of examples of forgiving and loving in the OT - it's not a simple vs. anything.

Unless you're trying to argue for this evolutionary, pro Christian kind of outlook, where it's better and more sophisticated in book 2.

Which most writers you encounter in your religion 101 continuum of Augustine, Kierkegaard etc. surprise surprise are.

I don't think that my reading of the NT is "pro Christian," because I don't find the story itself plausible and, more importantly, I don't perceive most self-described Christians as behaving in a way that relates to the story at all.

Some do, but these people are no more frequently occurring than benevolent Jews, Muslims, atheists, agnostics, or anything else.

 

[Homburg]

The way I see it is that it's a "burden of proof" type-thing. Religious folk are the ones asserting their god/s exist, and if they want me to believe, the onus is on them to prove it rather than me to disprove it; since they can't prove it, I don't believe it.

Sure, you also don't sound like the "active atheist" type.

Then again, what little kid thinks to themselves, "When I grow up, I want to be just like my hero, Michael Nudow!"

 

[intothewoods]

Then who's the guy who "sent his son" or whatever? What happened to him?

It's the same guy. Not a guy. God.

And I *do* think Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe in the same God. It's all God, prophets and messengers on Earth differ.

 

[EmpressFi]

I do. And the beauty of faith is I dont have to explain my belief or faith to anyone. It's a personal decision, a personal inner faith that something bigger than myself is in charge.

You may feel it's cliche. And honestly, I dont care what anyone thinks about the naivete of my faith. For years, I believed without doubt. Then for years, I believed in nothing. Then one day, I peed on a stick and the impossible was possible. And while it's shaky, and I dont have the answers to everything, my faith, at least a lot of it, was restored.

I believe in God. I believe in miracles. I'm feeling my miracle kick me. No one can explain how scar tissue that completely blocked not one but both fallopian tubes ~ something that makes pregnancy without intervention medically impossible ~ disappeared after 8 years. To me, it's a miracle, and always will be.

And for that, I believe.

 

[JMohegan]

It's the same guy. Not a guy. God.

And I *do* think Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe in the same God. It's all God, prophets and messengers on Earth differ.

How can you send yourself? I guess they don't read the Gospels literally.

I'm not gonna tell other people what they believe. If Graceanne, for example, describes the Gods as "similar" but different, that's good enough for me.