Do you believe in God?

[Netzach]

I don't think that my reading of the NT is "pro Christian," because I don't find the story itself plausible and, more importantly, I don't perceive most self-described Christians as behaving in a way that relates to the story at all.

Some do, but these people are no more frequently occurring than benevolent Jews, Muslims, atheists, agnostics, or anything else.

I just find it ironic, because it's the reading that you constantly encounter if you are a Jew and it's one that I recently even read in Papal letters about Jewish/Christian relations - Jews are moral out of fear of Law fear of their insane baby eating blood drinking version of God.

Bottom line - Abrahamic God is savage, unforgiving, hard. You're constantly being treated to this interpretation. It's basically the mainstream interpretation, period.

 

[Netzach]

What does it make YOU if this is your God?

Whose agenda is supported by this interpretation?

 

[intothewoods]

How can you send yourself? I guess they don't read the Gospels literally.

I'm not gonna tell other people what they believe. If Graceanne, for example, describes the Gods as "similar" but different, that's good enough for me.

You can believe that the Pope is actually the Easter Bunny for all I care, I'm just saying what makes sense to me based on the comparative religion books I've read.

ETA: And the only reason I mention it is that there are Jews, Christians and Muslims who hate members of the other group without understandind that all believe in God and not, for example, that Mohammed is God or Moses.

 

[JMohegan]

I just find it ironic, because it's the reading that you constantly encounter if you are a Jew and it's one that I recently even read in Papal letters about Jewish/Christian relations - Jews are moral out of fear of Law fear of their insane baby eating blood drinking version of God.

Bottom line - Abrahamic God is savage, unforgiving, hard. You're constantly being treated to this interpretation. It's basically the mainstream interpretation, period.

I'm not interpreting anything. I'm giving my impressions of a story that I read *literally.*

You're talking about the potential for forgiveness in traditional Judaism, and I believe you when you say that's possible. It's just hard to erase the image of a genocidal flood killing every man, woman, and child outside the Noah family, just 'cause Somebody had a temper tantrum. Not much potential for making amends *in that story* - right?

As for blood drinkers, aren't those the Christians? Baby eating, I don't remember.

Please don't get me started on the Pope, I'll be here all night.

If you want to talk about interpretations, and that which I find "hard," there's really not anything more vile and disgusting than the concept of eternal Hell. Nor is there anything more unjust than the idea of a Creator who brings humans into this world, knowing that some will fail whatever tests he's devised and thereby be sentenced eternally.

 

[Homburg]

I'm not interpreting anything. I'm giving my impressions of a story that I read *literally.*

You're talking about the potential for forgiveness in traditional Judaism, and I believe you when you say that's possible. It's just hard to erase the image of a genocidal flood killing every man, woman, and child outside the Noah family, just 'cause Somebody had a temper tantrum. Not much potential for making amends *in that story* - right?

As for blood drinkers, aren't those the Christians? Baby eating, I don't remember.

Please don't get me started on the Pope, I'll be here all night.

If you want to talk about interpretations, and that which I find "hard," there's really not anything more vile and disgusting than the concept of eternal Hell. Nor is there anything more unjust than the idea of a Creator who brings humans into this world, knowing that some will fail whatever tests he's devised and thereby be sentenced eternally.

From how it was explained to me (by a Jew), Jews don't believe in hell, and don't have a hell concept. If you aren't a godly person, you still go to the same afterlife as the godly ones. You are just farther away from god when you get there.

Seems more forgiving than a religion with hell.

 

[graceanne]

The leap of logic in Christianity isn't that you can't be forgiven in traditional Judaism.

The old recipe was think about it, feel bad about it, be punished according to law if need be, and then pay the guy at the temple for a couple of bullocks or a goat or a dove or seven so you can make it up.

Jesus basically pared down the requirement.

Pretty much. Expounding on what you said, but in the old testament there were a TON of rules, and then specific ways to atone for breaking said law. Normally with a sacrifice. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, and so we don't have to do that stuff anymore. But God made ways to atone for sins, even in the OT.

I think this a good generalization but I think there are some differences.

Mormons believe in the Trinity as 3 different persons with one purpose, which different than your wonderful water analogy in a later post.

Unitarians, who I think of as Protestant, believe in one God/one person, hence their name.

I think, and I could be wrong, that Unitarians believe that we ALL worship the same god. That no religion is right or wrong, etc. I think.

From how it was explained to me (by a Jew), Jews don't believe in hell, and don't have a hell concept. If you aren't a godly person, you still go to the same afterlife as the godly ones. You are just farther away from god when you get there.

Seems more forgiving than a religion with hell.

Ok, I'm not religiously Jewish, so I could be wrong. But from my understanding of the OT only law abiding (and by law, I mean the laws set out via Moses) Jews go to heaven. So if you're not one of 'the chosen people', you're fucked.

 

[JMohegan]

From how it was explained to me (by a Jew), Jews don't believe in hell, and don't have a hell concept. If you aren't a godly person, you still go to the same afterlife as the godly ones. You are just farther away from god when you get there.

Seems more forgiving than a religion with hell.

I don't think of Hell as a Jewish concept, either.

I also want to reiterate that I'm not passing judgment on whose religion is more, most, or not forgiving.

This conversation started with my observation of the personality of God, as presented in OT vs. NT stories. To me, this is like comparing Huck Finn's character in The Adventures of Tom Sawyer vs. The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

 

[Homburg]

Ok, I'm not religiously Jewish, so I could be wrong. But from my understanding of the OT only law abiding (and by law, I mean the laws set out via Moses) Jews go to heaven. So if you're not one of 'the chosen people', you're fucked.

You'll forgive me if I take the explanation of the Jew in question.

 

[graceanne]

You'll forgive me if I take the explanation of the Jew in question.

Honestly, I would, too. As I said, I'm not religiously Jewish. And I've only read the old testament once, because the new testament is a bit more relevant to my life. I could, and most likely, be very very wrong. I was just stating what I understood from what I read.

 

[JMohegan]

My apologies for the delay in answering this question. Search function's been a bitch.

What does it make YOU if this is your God?

Someone like this?

Not better, or worse, but a person with a different perspective.

 

[graceanne]

Ok, so things that make you go . . . huh.

I was thinking on what you said, Homburg, about what a Jew (I'm assuming MIS) said about hell, or lack thereof. I've heard it preached that hell is not what people assume it is, with the fire and all that, but complete separation from God.

So I went to biblegateway.com and did a search of hell in the bible. No mention of burning. I did a search of burning, and the only place I found (just scanning, mind you) where it mentions anyone being thrown into something burning is in revelations where it mentions throwing the DEVIL, the beast, and the false prophet into a lake of burning sulphur. No mention of anyone else.

It kinda coincides with what MIS was saying. Hell might be a NT word, but the idea is similar, being seperated from God.

 

[graceanne]

Ok, so things that make you go . . . huh.

I was thinking on what you said, Homburg, about what a Jew (I'm assuming MIS) said about hell, or lack thereof. I've heard it preached that hell is not what people assume it is, with the fire and all that, but complete separation from God.

So I went to biblegateway.com and did a search of hell in the bible. No mention of burning. I did a search of burning, and the only place I found (just scanning, mind you) where it mentions anyone being thrown into something burning is in revelations where it mentions throwing the DEVIL, the beast, and the false prophet into a lake of burning sulphur. No mention of anyone else.

It kinda coincides with what MIS was saying. Hell might be a NT word, but the idea is similar, being seperated from God.

Ok, I just read the whole thing in context. It says:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.

I'd guess that's where hell being full of fire comes in. But it doesn't actually refer to that place as Hell. And THAT'S at the end, after the rapture and the tribulations.

Huh.

 

[JustaNobody]

From how it was explained to me (by a Jew), Jews don't believe in hell, and don't have a hell concept. If you aren't a godly person, you still go to the same afterlife as the godly ones. You are just farther away from god when you get there.

Seems more forgiving than a religion with hell.

I'm not the most observant Jew in the world, but I spend a lot of time debating theology with some who are, so I thought I'd add in a bit more complication to the discussion:

In addition to a lack of a hell, Judaism is also rather vague on the concept of a heaven. The concept of "the world to come," as judaism refers to it, is considered by some as a heaven, and by some as a resurrection in the messianic age.

As far as the afterlife's influence on Jewish law, there is very little. Crimes against other people are atoned for through temporal justice systems or forgiveness, while crimes against god are atoned for during the High Holy days. Suicide is considered the only unforgivable crime not because of any connection to an afterlife, but because you cannot seek out forgiveness afterward.

 

[LilyBart]

I wouldn't guarantee it, there might be a smaller denomination that I don't know of. But of the Christ following religions, that I can think of, are Catholicism, Protestants, Jehovah Witnesses, and Mormons. (If anyone can think of one I'm forgetting, pipe in.) Under the Protestant category are several other smaller catergories (baptist, nazarene, etc.). Catholics, Protestants, and Mormons all believe in the Trinity.

Honestly, I would, too. As I said, I'm not religiously Jewish. And I've only read the old testament once, because the new testament is a bit more relevant to my life. I could, and most likely, be very very wrong. I was just stating what I understood from what I read.

I'm going to form a post here at my own risk, I think.

I grew up in (somewhat liberal) Catholic environment where the bible was viewed as literature. Period. A collection of stories, poems, songs and whatever....

So Graceanne, when you say you have only read the OT once, and this is a very sincere question....did you ever not read it as history, at least? In 5th grade, the OT was Literature class in my left wing catholic school. I don't mean that as a dig at you...just a difference in upbringing.

Again, I am not defending a faith, but I really do like that my (limited) bible study evolved the way that it did.. I did learn that the bible was a collection of stories, songs, poems etc. I understand the difference between the OT and NT. And I really love the poetry of the OT.

However both sections didn't understand that stars were stars...and not holes in the sky.

So...here I am...ethnic catholic drinker...who drinks on weekdays, toasting whomever...and so thankful to all of the writers that became the Bible. Whoever you were.

I get a little. I try to get a bit more.

Its a big world.

~LB

 

[graceanne]

I'm going to form a post here at my own risk, I think.

I grew up in (somewhat liberal) Catholic environment where the bible was viewed as literature. Period. A collection of stories, poems, songs and whatever....

So Graceanne, when you say you have only read the OT once, and this is a very sincere question....did you ever not read it as history, at least? In 5th grade, the OT was Literature class in my left wing catholic school. I don't mean that as a dig at you...just a difference in upbringing.

I read it both as God's word, but also as history, because it is. Quite often it's mistaken as something more. There's entire parts of the bible that tell about horrible things, and it's assumed that God sanctioned these things (like whatshisname killing his daughter because he promised to God he'd sacrifice the first living object through the door if he won). I've read that part, and it doesn't include God anywhere in that, other than that idiots promise. I consider that part history, and lesson if you will, on being careful about promises and not being an idiot. I think if he'd asked God's opinion on sacrificing his daughter, BEFORE he did it that it wouldn't have happened.

I can go on and on about horrible things that are written about in the OT (another thing that comes to mind is Lot's daughters getting him drunk and fucking him), that I read for history more than anything else. After all, if we don't know our history then we can't learn from it. (Winston Churchill, I think.)

Again, I am not defending a faith, but I really do like that my (limited) bible study evolved the way that it did.. I did learn that the bible was a collection of stories, songs, poems etc. I understand the difference between the OT and NT. And I really love the poetry of the OT.

However both sections didn't understand that stars were stars...and not holes in the sky.

huh?

 

[Etoile]

No. For any and all definitions of "god" and other diety-related terms.

 

[LilyBart]

I read it both as God's word, but also as history, because it is. Quite often it's mistaken as something more. There's entire parts of the bible that tell about horrible things, and it's assumed that God sanctioned these things (like whatshisname killing his daughter because he promised to God he'd sacrifice the first living object through the door if he won). I've read that part, and it doesn't include God anywhere in that, other than that idiots promise. I consider that part history, and lesson if you will, on being careful about promises and not being an idiot. I think if he'd asked God's opinion on sacrificing his daughter, BEFORE he did it that it wouldn't have happened.

I can go on and on about horrible things that are written about in the OT (another thing that comes to mind is Lot's daughters getting him drunk and fucking him), that I read for history more than anything else. After all, if we don't know our history then we can't learn from it. (Winston Churchill, I think.)



huh?

Sorry... we Catholics are known to be drinkers.

But the Bible is still just a glorious piece of literature for me. It doesn't mean I don't have a belief in some way. But the bible is still, for me, a collection of writings. Really beautiful writings. It is really the first example of serious literature.

Whether I believe or not. The Bible, Ot or NT, is pretty solid. And I am sort of into the poetry.

But then, poetry makes me weak at the knees.....

~LB

 

[graceanne]

Sorry... we Catholics are known to be drinkers.

But the Bible is still just a glorious piece of literature for me. It doesn't mean I don't have a belief in some way. But the bible is still, for me, a collection of writings. Really beautiful writings. It is really the first example of serious literature.

Whether I believe or not. The Bible, Ot or NT, is pretty solid. And I am sort of into the poetry.

But then, poetry makes me weak at the knees.....

~LB

I meant I don't understand what you meant by the start being stars and not holes in the sky.

 

[groove_kid]

All this talk of God and the after life can get so general it's not funny.
I guess it would be possible for someone to believe in a god and not
believe in an afterlife.
I believe in God,but my god is probably a little different from many others
ideas of him, or it, or she.

 

[monk111]

There is most definitely a higher power/entity that exists...what most humans call "GOD" and anyone who thinks that the universe which is so perfectly in synch just suddenly decided to create itself one day has a screw loose. "GOD" exists.

 

[jockdom]

Ok, a little history lesson.

Once upon a time there was a man named Abram. Abram found favor in the eyes of the Lord and He renamed him Abraham and promised he'd be the father of nations. But Abraham and his wife (was Sarai, changed to Sarah) got impatient as she continued not to have children and not to have children. So Sarah told Abraham to take her handmaiden (read: slave), Hagar, and get her pregnant. Hagar had a little boy, Ishmael. Shortly after Sarah had Issac. Sarah abused Hagar and Ishmael and eventually had her and Ishmael banished. God told Hagar that her son, also, would be the father of nations. The Arabs are descendants of Hagar, and therefore Abraham. The Jews are descendants of Isaac, and also Abraham. Abraham believed in the God I believe in.

Then, a long time later, Jesus came. He was born, he taught, he was persecuted, he was killed, and he rose again. Those of us who follow Jesus, who was the son of the God of Abraham, are Christians. The main difference? You don't have to believe in the God of Abraham to be a Jew or an Arab, it's a culture AND a religion. But all three religions can be traced through Abraham.

Thats not history that's Mythology.

 

[intothewoods]

From how it was explained to me (by a Jew), Jews don't believe in hell, and don't have a hell concept. If you aren't a godly person, you still go to the same afterlife as the godly ones. You are just farther away from god when you get there.

Seems more forgiving than a religion with hell.

Yep. No hell. Just further and closer to God.

It's been a long time since I read the OT and NT. Most of what I remember about the OT has been told to me by someone else like a rabbi.

 

[Recidiva]

If the popular version of this question is right, I envision God as a giant cosmic 15 year old watching us like a faces of death installment. "Dude, dude TOTALLY blew up!"

Yup. Then things would totally make sense.

 

[Recidiva]

I used to work with this woman who was a full on Holy Roller. I don’t know the name brand of the religion she practiced but it’s the one where they speak in tongues and dance around a lot. Anyway, in her never ending quest for converts, she would always invite all her co-workers to attend the Easter/Xmas musicals at her church. Well, I’m always up for free entertainment, so I said yes to the Easter invitation.

Being raised by non-believers, I had only a rudimentary knowledge of Christian lore – eg. Christ turns into a rabbit once every spring and delivers chocolate eggs to children the world over.

I watched the performance, which was quite professional, and enjoyed the story, at least what I could make of it. When it was all said and done, my co-worker asked me what I’d thought of it all and I told her how impressed I was by the acting, singing, sets, etc. I also told her that my very favorite character was the guy in the dark blue robe; I loved him!

“That was Satan,” she said, with a just-bit-into-a-lemon expression on her face.

In retrospect, I should have known.

I think that's also something that doesn't help me with many traditional religions.

To me dark and light are sides of the coin thing. Can't have one without the other, etc., blah, blah...

I understand that there are influences to avoid or lessen...and things to strengthen and nurture.

So the stereotypical one-dimensionial "I'M EVIL" stompy mad archetype just sorta seems cartoony and immature.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies for any parroting.

I believe in God. I have studied creation at a biochemical level in order to become a nurse and nothing I have read or seen has crushed my belief. I've read books about theology, deism, philosophy, various religions, quantum physics, science, cosmology, biology and more. I believe in God but people who believe will see God manifest in creation and people who don't will not. It's all about what a person wants to see.

I believe that all religions are a way of approaching the One. All gods and godesses are faces of the one true deity. Nobody can say that their faith outclasses all others or that followers of a certain faith are all wrongheaded and deluded. Religion is about unity and peace and whether that comes from Buddhism, Christianity, Islam or Paganism, there will always be devotees in any religion who seek and find peace, unity and enlightenment.

I believe the Bible is a valuable and spiritual book. For me it is not important to pin down the minutia of Jesus' life or that of old testament prophets. Jesus was a symbol, an icon who gave people hope of a greater power and direction in living their lives. Whether he was the incarnated son of God is not as important to me as that truth. The lessons are there, as they have always been and it is the lessons that we need. We are all like children before the One deity, who transcends gender and all our perceptions of self almost completely. We are given the guidance in a format we can comprehend and wherever comfort and enlightenment is gained from that, it is a good and holy thing. People find what they seek and their beliefs manifest their reality. Just as people who believe in ghosts or angels seem to see them many times, while those who don't never will, perception gives rise to biased judgement and awareness, which directly impacts on a personal, subjective experience of life.

I'm going to stop waffling now but those are my beliefs. I find belief in eternal matter and science to the exclusion of all else cold and a defiance of the beauty and miraculousness of life wrought from countless elements that would be nothing but for the whole and a mere cadaver but for some divine spark that can never really be comprehended.