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Elizabeth Warren

cleaver said:
i disagree.

you forget the original creation of this special counsel
which included exploration of...
"any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation"

mueller concluded his investigation where he did
exploring and chronicling how and what he did
entirely within his purview
and within his proscribed discretion.

case closed?
because mueller... exceeded what you contend was his purview?

despite what issues he apparently has raised that may indeed still be on the table?

you cannot dismiss the parts of the investigation
or its (i would argue - purposefully in-definitive) findings
by dismissing what you mis-define as its original scope.

let these chips fall.

it is now a political fight.

in the end, we become stronger as a nation
for being able to wade through this mess...
adjust the process
and come to some political conclusion
by categorically ignoring nothing.
Click to expand...

I implore you to read the findings of the SCOTUS in the case Arthur Andersen LLP v. United States, 544 U.S. 696 (2005). It defines the components of obstruction of justice that you'll realize were not all present in the case against Trump

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/544/696/
 
SpeareChucker said:
They have no non-math
They understand totally
the math of the mob unfettered

why the hell do you think they rail
against the non-math of the redistributors?

MMT and "magic multipliers?
Click to expand...

we are of differing opinion

despite your aspirations otherwise,
we live in...
and shall remain living in the grey -
between pure individual liberty
and
absolute collectivism.

unless you decide to live in a compound
off the grid
and self sustainable,
you are hopelessly social
and as such...
must, will and do cede some of that individual liberty
in (oft times inefficient) service to a common good.

i'm reminded of the quote (re-quote) of churchill regarding the shortfalls of (social) democracies ...

Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.ā€¦

the crux then is government.
it's function and place...
which - as a usurper...
a redistributor -
is antithetical to your liberty.

yet, this is the place we have.
ours is social.
it has societal needs.
there is common good to be identified and rendered.
government, limited or not, is still a concession
to what i see as your absolute.

i can appreciate your struggle,
but the absolute orthodoxy of it...
to me, becomes ghastly
starting from any point but parity...
even then, the adherence to it
seems to come only with indoctrination....

yeah.... no.

it's kind of like...
calvinism on ego steroids.

since we can neither start from scratch
nor long sustain the disparities
that this 'worst form' of government has
achieved,
we instead endeavour to find ways to struggle in the greys
to balance our society and your ideal liberty.

there is no absolute.
no mystical mountain hideaway
to take our toys and practice our orthodoxy...
to let the mob rot.

nor, in any good conscience,
could any such practice be imposed here
without authoritarian fiat and... much blood.
your liberalism emerges not naturally
from the ugly grey rabble we have thus far become.

i do think we are of the same mind re liz warren.
although my reasoning certainly differs.

she is authentic in her fervor
but i fear that it is based more in
righteousness and self service
than the pragmatism i seem to be espousing...
i find her to be almost gleefully demagogic...
a crusader with a single track dragon to slay;
as if slaying grendel's mentor would solve all else...

the issues we currently face as a nation
are more complex
than simple "corporate greed".
the answers to those complex issues
will take more sloppy pluralism
than i think she can handle.
 
cleaver said:
i disagree.

you forget the original creation of this special counsel
which included exploration of...
"any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation"

mueller concluded his investigation where he did
exploring and chronicling how and what he did
entirely within his purview
and within his proscribed discretion.

case closed?
because mueller... exceeded what you contend was his purview?

despite what issues he apparently has raised that may indeed still be on the table?

you cannot dismiss the parts of the investigation
or its (i would argue - purposefully in-definitive) findings
by dismissing what you mis-define as its original scope.

let these chips fall.

it is now a political fight.

in the end, we become stronger as a nation
for being able to wade through this mess...
adjust the process
and come to some political conclusion
by categorically ignoring nothing.
Click to expand...


Crimes found during the investigation were not dismissed. Certain findings were transferred to SDNY and ED/V for follow up indictments and possible prosecution.
Manafort and Cohen were both prosecuted for a litany of crimes all within the purview of the original investigation. Those chips fell and deservedly so. Mueller gained experience from the Enron case [Anderson vs U.S.] on how to use barely legal subversive tactics, using strong arm tactics ( Andrew Weissmann ) against General Flynn and [FARA] and [LOGAN ACT] violations which are almost never prosecuted. Flynn lying to the FBI to cover up something he did legally and sanctioned by the Obama admin was pretty damn close to entrapment and a process crime, a typical Weissmann SOP often used in the Enron case. Flynn lied, that's undeniable but the FBI set the table in their first meeting with no attorney present then pulled the rug from underneath him in the second meeting. Stepping off point for Russian collusion. Destroyed a decorated soldier with over 30 years of service for what? Because Trump was toxic 'TDS'. I question why Flynn was investigated in the first place. Why weren't these tactics used against Hillary. Flynn was guilty till proven innocent, Hillary wasn't even challenged. Hillary's violation of [18 U.S.C. 1924] was determined by Lynch as a MATTER and dropped by Comey for "no ill intent" and not prosecutable, well, anyone who was granted a secret clearance know's that is BULLSHIT. Tell that to the submariner who was prosecuted for taking pictures in a classified area onboard a sub, one year in prison!!! The Clinton bias throughout tainted this whole investigation all the way up to Muller and his band of merry prosecutors. Use the shoe on the other foot analogy. The Steele dossier, FISA corruption, colluding with foreign governments, using campaign money to fund a dossier for a FISA warrant, to engage in a baseless criminal investigation. To change a surveillance investigation to a criminal investigation was all done with smoking mirrors. The left was crying impeach even before his inauguration ( Maxine Waters ) using a media that was in the tank for Hillary. I'm not going to produce all the cases and legal opinions, far too many. Read Barr's letter to Mueller defining obstruction of justice and the crippling effect the present definition, if not reigned in, would have on article II presidential governance and power which would affect every president now and into the future. Weissmann's philosophy is win at all cost and left nothing standing in his wake. What A SHIT SHUTE!! Mueller never looked the other way, his investigation was never objective but rather subjective in manner and ferociously protected by the zealot left. What's going on now is a scorched earth attempt to depose a sitting president even if it ruins our country. The second shoe is about to drop and the "CHICKENS ARE COMING HOME TO ROOST" My humble opinion.
 
cleaver said:
we are of differing opinion

despite your aspirations otherwise,
we live in...
and shall remain living in the grey -
between pure individual liberty
and
absolute collectivism.

unless you decide to live in a compound
off the grid
and self sustainable,
you are hopelessly social
and as such...
must, will and do cede some of that individual liberty
in (oft times inefficient) service to a common good.

i'm reminded of the quote (re-quote) of churchill regarding the shortfalls of (social) democracies ...

Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.ā€¦

the crux then is government.
it's function and place...
which - as a usurper...
a redistributor -
is antithetical to your liberty.

yet, this is the place we have.
ours is social.
it has societal needs.
there is common good to be identified and rendered.
government, limited or not, is still a concession
to what i see as your absolute.

i can appreciate your struggle,
but the absolute orthodoxy of it...
to me, becomes ghastly
starting from any point but parity...
even then, the adherence to it
seems to come only with indoctrination....

yeah.... no.

it's kind of like...
calvinism on ego steroids.

since we can neither start from scratch
nor long sustain the disparities
that this 'worst form' of government has
achieved,
we instead endeavour to find ways to struggle in the greys
to balance our society and your ideal liberty.

there is no absolute.
no mystical mountain hideaway
to take our toys and practice our orthodoxy...
to let the mob rot.

nor, in any good conscience,
could any such practice be imposed here
without authoritarian fiat and... much blood.
your liberalism emerges not naturally
from the ugly grey rabble we have thus far become.

i do think we are of the same mind re liz warren.
although my reasoning certainly differs.

she is authentic in her fervor
but i fear that it is based more in
righteousness and self service
than the pragmatism i seem to be espousing...
i find her to be almost gleefully demagogic...
a crusader with a single track dragon to slay;
as if slaying grendel's mentor would solve all else...

the issues we currently face as a nation
are more complex
than simple "corporate greed".
the answers to those complex issues
will take more sloppy pluralism
than i think she can handle.
Click to expand...

I would have missed this if it weren't for others...
Liz has been rejected by my tribe
On this one, I think I shall defer to the elders
as do I (and they) when it comes to the Founders

Of a like mind, they were not,
but students of history, they certainly were.
They gave us the best of that which could be offered
and ever since, the slaves have been revolting against
the insecurity that is freedom

They will surrender theirs in the hope of taking mine.
Liz thinks she is Spartacus...
She is Nero
 
SpeareChucker said:
They gave us the best of that which could be offered
and ever since, the slaves have been revolting against
the insecurity that is freedom

They will surrender theirs in the hope of taking mine.
Liz thinks she is Spartacus...
She is Nero
Click to expand...

The authoritarian types always do.

What I don't understand is how they can argue that the security that comes with being a slave is REAL freedom.

I suppose that's why the left always resorts to name calling and deflection, despite their strong feelings that it is, they can't actually argue that position.
 
icanhelp1 said:
Crimes found during the investigation were not dismissed. Certain findings were transferred to SDNY and ED/V for follow up indictments and possible prosecution.
Manafort and Cohen were both prosecuted for a litany of crimes all within the purview of the original investigation. Those chips fell and deservedly so. Mueller gained experience from the Enron case [Anderson vs U.S.] on how to use barely legal subversive tactics, using strong arm tactics ( Andrew Weissmann ) against General Flynn and [FARA] and [LOGAN ACT] violations which are almost never prosecuted. Flynn lying to the FBI to cover up something he did legally and sanctioned by the Obama admin was pretty damn close to entrapment and a process crime, a typical Weissmann SOP often used in the Enron case. Flynn lied, that's undeniable but the FBI set the table in their first meeting with no attorney present then pulled the rug from underneath him in the second meeting. Stepping off point for Russian collusion. Destroyed a decorated soldier with over 30 years of service for what? Because Trump was toxic 'TDS'. I question why Flynn was investigated in the first place. Why weren't these tactics used against Hillary. Flynn was guilty till proven innocent, Hillary wasn't even challenged. Hillary's violation of [18 U.S.C. 1924] was determined by Lynch as a MATTER and dropped by Comey for "no ill intent" and not prosecutable, well, anyone who was granted a secret clearance know's that is BULLSHIT. Tell that to the submariner who was prosecuted for taking pictures in a classified area onboard a sub, one year in prison!!! The Clinton bias throughout tainted this whole investigation all the way up to Muller and his band of merry prosecutors. Use the shoe on the other foot analogy. The Steele dossier, FISA corruption, colluding with foreign governments, using campaign money to fund a dossier for a FISA warrant, to engage in a baseless criminal investigation. To change a surveillance investigation to a criminal investigation was all done with smoking mirrors. The left was crying impeach even before his inauguration ( Maxine Waters ) using a media that was in the tank for Hillary. I'm not going to produce all the cases and legal opinions, far too many. Read Barr's letter to Mueller defining obstruction of justice and the crippling effect the present definition, if not reigned in, would have on article II presidential governance and power which would affect every president now and into the future. Weissmann's philosophy is win at all cost and left nothing standing in his wake. What A SHIT SHUTE!! Mueller never looked the other way, his investigation was never objective but rather subjective in manner and ferociously protected by the zealot left. What's going on now is a scorched earth attempt to depose a sitting president even if it ruins our country. The second shoe is about to drop and the "CHICKENS ARE COMING HOME TO ROOST" My humble opinion.
Click to expand...

The lesson of Arthur Andersen LLP v. United States, 544 U.S. 696 (2005) was a 9-0 slap down of Andrew Weismann for withholding exculpatory evidence by the SCOTUS and a suggestion he re-read the statute on Obstruction.
 


https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/ZKKV7-_fwc3Eql-IPsPOOqv8yEw=/856x0/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/MT5TG7RJU4I6TGCNTOH3UAB6QE.png





I know this will come as a shock but there is a truthful answer to this question.


Are you a Native American?


____ 100%
_____50%
_____25%
_____12Ā½%
_____6.7%
_____3.1%
_____It's possible, though I'm not entirely sure. Somebody in my family once mentioned that they were told that my great-great grandmother might have been a Native American.







​
 
And on the same week she lied about Michael Brown being murdered in Missouri five years ago this week.
Yeah, she's a healer.
 
She's got you Trumpettes scared spitless--enough to run a "buck yourselves up" thread on her. That's all good. :)
 
Kantarii said:
Fauxcahantas šŸ˜‚
Click to expand...

I read Warren is moving up in the most recent polls. Good on her!

I wouldn't doubt that the DNC really doesn't want the Biden gaffe machine to go up against Trump. One stupid senile old white male against another stupid old, but brutally witty, white male. Advantage goes to Trump.

But if you put up a stupid, even if slow, 1/1250th ethnic woman against a stupid, brutally witty, white male then you got the victim hood superpower going for you, even if it is only at a homeopathic dosage level.

It's enough to get you into Harvard, but can homeopathic victim hood superpowers penetrate Trump's Teflon armor coating?
 
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