Evolution or creation?

[JudasIscariot]

All stories of Jesus were third-hand accounts of third-hand accounts. Basically the telephone game played for a few hundred years before the "Gospels" were even written down. The gospels tell the same general story, but with many details completely different. Some of the other gospels didn't even make it into the bible because they didn't elevate "Jesus" to messiah status.

Comsidering that a clear definition of death didn't come about for a long time, it wouldn't be much of a leap to think that some guy name Yeshua was crucified, assumed dead, put in a cave, woke up and walked away.

You've never heard of persecution then?

If, and I agree it's a big if, somebody did have first hand accounts of said person; it would have been suicide to have written it at that time and you yourself know that. If you're going to assume that anything written further than first person accounts can't be held as a valid document then almost all historians and scholars are useless.

Part of learning about our origins and history in general are from accounts passed down throughout the ages. Obviously things will be changed and fairytale may be added but that's just how it is.

 

[Que]

Assumptions without evidence is faith. Even if you knew that someone named Yeshua lived at that time, was a carpenter, had disciples, disrputed trade at the temple, and was crucified, that doesn't make him a diety.

Absolutely agreed.

That is a theological question.

The argument thoug

 

[Que]

Assumptions without evidence is faith. Even if you knew that someone named Yeshua lived at that time, was a carpenter, had disciples, disrputed trade at the temple, and was crucified, that doesn't make him a diety.

Absolutely agreed.

That is a theological question.

The argument though was whether Jesus was a fictional character. He was not.

His parentage of a god and a virgin is a little suspect, but whats a birth certificate amongst true believers?

 

[Bob_Bytchin]

You've never heard of persecution then?

If, and I agree it's a big if, somebody did have first hand accounts of said person; it would have been suicide to have written it at that time and you yourself know that. If you're going to assume that anything written further than first person accounts can't be held as a valid document then almost all historians and scholars are useless.

Part of learning about our origins and history in general are from accounts passed down throughout the ages. Obviously things will be changed and fairytale may be added but that's just how it is.

Evidence of Xtian persecution by the Romans is almost non-existant. The idea of persecution is something Xtians cling to because they want to believe their belief made it through such terrible times.

So...stories not being written down because of the fear of persecution doesn't hold weight.

A story written 200 years or more after an event isn't proof of a diety.

Funny how Jesus and God have been absent from the stage for the last 2000 years, enough so that The Bible 3rd Edition hasn't been written (oh wait, it has...the Koran or Book of Mormon.)

 

[KUJACK]

Both have gaps that cannot be explained

Which do you believe and why?

Life from nothing need explanation, also big jumps in differing species cannot be explained by evolution.
Creation involves faith which cannot be proven scientifically.

 

[Bob_Bytchin]

Absolutely agreed.

That is a theological question.

The argument though was whether Jesus was a fictional character. He was not.

His parentage of a god and a virgin is a little suspect, but whats a birth certificate amongst true believers?

Glad we agree on the theological aspect.

But if there was ANY sort of record of Jesus beyond the NT, it would be the greatest discovery in history. But the hell if CNN will report it and stop coverage of Syria bombings.

 

[JudasIscariot]

Evidence of Xtian persecution by the Romans is almost non-existant. The idea of persecution is something Xtians cling to because they want to believe their belief made it through such terrible times.

So...stories not being written down because of the fear of persecution doesn't hold weight.

A story written 200 years or more after an event isn't proof of a diety.

Funny how Jesus and God have been absent from the stage for the last 2000 years, enough so that The Bible 3rd Edition hasn't been written (oh wait, it has...the Koran or Book of Mormon.)

There is written texts about Christian persecution, vast amounts in fact. The emperor Nero was obsessed by it and it's even argued it cost him his empire. Christians could not be present in groups due to fear of conspiracy and where often persecuted as a result of it.

Also, I am not claiming there is an all knowing, all seeing God nor that Jesus was a prophet. So I don't know why you decided to put the last part in at all.

 

[about_average]

The Romans most likely would have believed; jesus to be nothing but a peasant who was most likely crazy. That would explain why he never made it into their texts and records. Is Pontus Pilate in any of those records? Or king Herod for that matter?

There's little argument that the historical Jesus didn't exist, as opposed to the Son of God Jesus.
I don't know if the Romans considered him crazy, but they did consider him to be treasonous, that's why he was crucified.
It's knows Pontius Pilate existed and was quite the brutal prefect of Judea. There's evidence he was so brutal he was "fired" by Rome 3 or 4 years after the crucifixion of Jesus.

Keep in mind there are no extant original copies of the books of the bible. Add to that the fact that many of the early copies were made by people who were likely functionally illiterate and you have lots of room for interpretation and error.

 

[JudasIscariot]

There's little argument that the historical Jesus didn't exist, as opposed to the Son of God Jesus.
I don't know if the Romans considered him crazy, but they did consider him to be treasonous, that's why he was crucified.
It's knows Pontius Pilate existed and was quite the brutal prefect of Judea. There's evidence he was so brutal he was "fired" by Rome 3 or 4 years after the crucifixion of Jesus.

Sorry. I knew Pilate existed I was just using him as an argument to the guy claiming that Jesus did not. He never came back to follow up his point. I read his profile and I'm glad he didn't. He asked me to show him jesus too, bit of an odd request.

Yes, I wasn't saying jesus was of another world etc, just that to dismiss the existence so easily was futile.

 

[Mr_Jon_Thon]

Since Darwin never claimed the ability to cast me into a pit of fiery torment for all eternity, I'm going to go on record in favor of Semi-Intelligent design. More like, "Huh, that didn't exactly turn out as planned."

 

[badbabysitter]

Wouldn't "...but, but....sputter...the Muslims!" be a bit more millennium appropriate?

I thought you would be in favor of Margaret Sanger eugenics?

You mean the eugenics idealogy she had abandoned by 1936, which in turn put her on the nazi shit list to the point where her books were amongst the very first things they burned

if you're going to attack Sanger, you really need to do some research on her.. you can do much better then that

some of her counterparts that believed in eugenics were Teddy Roosevelt and Winston Churchill

in fact, Churchill was a firm believer in euthanizing the mentally ill.. and never once renounced his beliefs

maybe you should be attacking Churchill

 

[1sickbastard]

There's little argument that the historical Jesus didn't exist, as opposed to the Son of God Jesus.
I don't know if the Romans considered him crazy, but they did consider him to be treasonous, that's why he was crucified.
It's knows Pontius Pilate existed and was quite the brutal prefect of Judea. There's evidence he was so brutal he was "fired" by Rome 3 or 4 years after the crucifixion of Jesus.

Keep in mind there are no extant original copies of the books of the bible. Add to that the fact that many of the early copies were made by people who were likely functionally illiterate and you have lots of room for interpretation and error.

Actually, PhD historian Richard Carrier has made a serious, academic case against the existence of a a historical Jesus. "On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt" was published by Sheffield Phoenix Press only last June after passing the peer review process. As far as I can tell (which ain't saying much), his is the first serious challenge to the notion of an actual Jesus, in a scholarly sense, as is sure to spark lively debate among experts in that particular area.

 

[1sickbastard]

What makes you think all deities are imaginary?

What evidence do you have that any given deity isn't imaginary?
To date, no one has ever demonstrated that there is a non-material component to the universe, nor that any sort of consciousness can exist separate from a material framework, much less that any such consciousness has anything remotely resembling any power we'd consider god-like.

If you want to believe in a god, gods or capital 'G', captain God, fine by me. You want me to believe it, you have to prove to me why said belief is a matter of demonstrable fact.

 

[phrodeau]

All stories of Jesus were third-hand accounts of third-hand accounts. Basically the telephone game played for a few hundred years before the "Gospels" were even written down. The gospels tell the same general story, but with many details completely different. Some of the other gospels didn't even make it into the bible because they didn't elevate "Jesus" to messiah status.

Comsidering that a clear definition of death didn't come about for a long time, it wouldn't be much of a leap to think that some guy name Yeshua was crucified, assumed dead, put in a cave, woke up and walked away.

Somehow they were able to record exactly word-for-word what Jesus prayed at Gethsemane, even though it is clearly stated that nobody else was awake at the time.

And how fortunate for Jesus that someone left a change of clothes in the tomb.

 

[Bob_Bytchin]

There is written texts about Christian persecution, vast amounts in fact. The emperor Nero was obsessed by it and it's even argued it cost him his empire. Christians could not be present in groups due to fear of conspiracy and where often persecuted as a result of it.

Also, I am not claiming there is an all knowing, all seeing God nor that Jesus was a prophet. So I don't know why you decided to put the last part in at all.

Actually, even the Catholic church has come out and said that a vast majority of the Xtian persecution was exaggerated.

In fact, many Xtians held high offices during Nero's time, and had plenty of authority. That hardly lends much to the stories of huddled Xtians in the catacombs...fearing that they'll be thrown to the lions. Many of the Xtians who were sent to the lions, were in prison because they were criminals...not because they were Xtians. The Romans did not like swollen prison populations, and if someone happened to be Xtian, that was hardly them being persecuted. The word is actually prosecuted.

 

[Bob_Bytchin]

And how fortunate for Jesus that someone left a change of clothes in the tomb.

Were the sheets turned down too? And a mint under the pillow?

 

[Que]

Actually, PhD historian Richard Carrier has made a serious, academic case against the existence of a a historical Jesus. "On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt" was published by Sheffield Phoenix Press only last June after passing the peer review process. As far as I can tell (which ain't saying much), his is the first serious challenge to the notion of an actual Jesus, in a scholarly sense, as is sure to spark lively debate among experts in that particular area.

OH!

Peer reviewed.

Why didn't you say so?

#SettledScience.

:nods:

Good thing we don't use the standard "preponderance of evidence" for history.

Assuming we agree that Jesus was not the son of God, (because he was missing a birth certificate) do you maintain that each and every teacher and prophet in the Jewish religion was made up out of whole cloth as fictional characters and none of them ever existed or actually taught?

There was no temple, there were no leaders? The Pharisees and Sadducee sects were fictional?

If we risk beheading to say that Allah is not God, do you also maintain that the person that was Mahmoud (a mortal man) who actually made up Allah was also fictional?

Did any actual humans live on the earth before the internet was invented by Al gore?

Someone started a sect we now know as Christianity. If Fred the Baker rather than Jesus the Carpenter made up his parentage as other-worldly...why is it that Fred the Baker did not encourage people to worship him?

You maintain that this religion has staying power of 2000 years from a paul-bunyon legend about a guy that no one ever met? That all of the writers who claimed to have met them (admittedly most of the bible was written by one guy paul, but not all of it) just had a mass hallucination, not of Jesus divinity, but his existence as a dude they broke bread with?

huh.

 

[Bob_Bytchin]

There's little argument that the historical Jesus didn't exist, as opposed to the Son of God Jesus.
I don't know if the Romans considered him crazy, but they did consider him to be treasonous, that's why he was crucified.

And yet, even though the Romans were meticulous about keeping records, there's nothing in their records that supports Yeshua the man. So, if he did commit treason and was such a danger, there would be a record of the man which would prove his existence.

If there was proof of Yeshua the man, it would be shown and verified. Until there is proof, his existance, as man or diety is pure conjecture.

 

[Bob_Bytchin]

You maintain that this religion has staying power of 2000 years from a paul-bunyon legend about a guy that no one ever met? That all of the writers who claimed to have met them (admittedly most of the bible was written by one guy paul, but not all of it) just had a mass hallucination, not of Jesus divinity, but his existence as a dude they broke bread with?

huh.

As Richard Dawkins says...we are all atheists about 99% of the world's religions. Some of us just go one diety further.

 

[DollyFox]

Evolution. It's evident in our own time.

 

[Que]

As Richard Dawkins says...we are all atheists about 99% of the world's religions. Some of us just go one diety further.

It isn't about religion it is about the modern obsession with rejecting culture and traditions.

Else why the obsession with "proving' (and failing) that Jesus wasn't a mortal when all you have to do is decide for yourself he was not immortal.

These traditions have roots and the roots of all religions had some kernel of reality and some kernel of wisdom.

To discard all of human actual history and the origins of culture is the height of hubris.

 

[Bob_Bytchin]

It isn't about religion it is about the modern obsession with rejecting culture and traditions.

Else why the obsession with "proving' (and failing) that Jesus wasn't a mortal when all you have to do is decide for yourself he was not immortal.

These traditions have roots and the roots of all religions had some kernel of reality and some kernel of wisdom.

To discard all of human actual history and the origins of culture is the height of hubris.

Why continue a tradition if there's no basis behind it?

I have always had an interest in finding out if Yeshua was a real person or not. His having existed doesn't prove anything either way.

Yeshua was far from the start of history or culture. His part in it, historically or mythologically has had impact. But weighing his impact, I'd say he's the cause of much strife, hatred, and violence. Not much of a legacy. His attributed teachings aren't followed by many of his believers.

When you free your mind from the remaining 1% of the dieties you're not atheistic about, you appreciate the natural world more, and have much more respect for the living world. Yeshua and his church could give a shit less about the state of the planet.

 

[neci]

Intelligent Evolution

 

[nowisthetime]

As someone with a background in the life sciences, I believe in both theories. Obviously, living things have changed over time. The Earth is constantly changing and organisms must adapt or they become extinct. There is strong evidence of evolution such as the change in the earth's layers, fossils, homologous, analogous, and embryological structural similarities. There is the presence of vestigial organs such as the appendix, believed to be an extra digestive organ, which showed we evolved from eating tough substances. It's not an overnight process, it's gradual. But someone or something had to get this thing going.....there is a higher power. There are many scientists who believe in both theories.

 

[4yourpleasureiam]

The expanding Universe proves it. God is making the Universe larger every day so that we all can have special places to go when we die. I personally know there are going to be at least 100 special existences for me when I leave here. My family will want me in one place, an old friend (not old in age but years know) will want me in another. Of coarse there will be the world with my wife and children then another with endless seas and perfect islands with the perfect quartering wind filling my sails. That place will have some days of huge seas and high winds and the ice box will always be full as will the larder. Perhaps a fine young sailor girl will spell me at the helm and we will sail under the full moon and star studded skies.

Another world will be high prairies divided by high snow capped mountain ranges. Clear streams and lakes will be abundant and a nice lodge (tepee) will be glowing in the night welcoming me to camp. Of coarse a willow thin young lady will be waiting by the door.

Another world will be a ranch with a fence line that will take me 5 days to ride. Aspen glades will great me each evening to my camps and at the end of the 5 days I will ride into my headquarters and my wife will be waiting where she has tended her goats and chickens and her gardens.

I could go on and on but you will not read or care. Now the diff between me and you is if I am wrong nothing lost. If you are wrong look what you are throwing away. Only you will know.

Have a good life

PS there is some one here who I will also meet and we will make sweet music in the fields and the woods and the bed room and by the beach and anywhere we want. And the good thing is that person will have many other worlds where they will live with loved ones and do things that do not involve me. But they will be content and happy

And yes I died once and saw the lights ahead but it was not my time. The old Friend came to me the night of the funeral and took me part way and Again I knew it was not my time and that was gut wrenching to pull away. But hay, If I am wrong, nothing lost because I will not know it.