For any men seeking to understand their potential impact on women…

[tenyari]

Not sure what that has to do with the female experience however.

That wasn't my point.

EDIT: Deleted stuff that didn't come across well. Honestly my "point" that was in my head in my first post was not the point that I wrote down, so I was in the wrong to have posted it.

 

[EmilyMiller]

That wasn't my point. But you seem worked up in this one. Your last sentence there is frankly not tolerable.

My point was that people project their fears onto others, violence is a LOT less common than many believe, and is rarely from strangers.

You're projecting on and about me also, from the looks of the post. All I will say is that I know this reality beyond my education. My education and the stats are counter to my own lived reality - I grew up in violence; but know I'm a statistical anomaly. Plus I'm old enough to have lived through times when things were a lot worse than they are today - stranger on stranger violence peaked in the 1980s in my part of the world, when I was in the thick of it. It's my distant memory, but I knew it. I also grew to the point where I take conscious effort not to project on others as I walk through the world.

Your comments about stranger violence are irrelevant. It doesn’t matter for the purposes of this thread. Your comments about man on man violence are irrelevant. It doesn’t matter for the purposes of this thread.

This thread is about female experience and all you sought to do was to say that’s not really true, because of these unconnected facts.

I found that deeply offensive. Not just in general but to my own experience.

Please don’t try to say that other people’s lived experience is not relevant. Especially by citing things that are nothing to do with it.

I apologise for that one comment, which I will go and delete. That’s my own trauma talking. It may be a real feeling, but it’s not pertinent to what I am trying to say to you.

Emily

 

[EmilyMiller]

That wasn't my point. But you seem worked up in this one. Your last sentence there is frankly not tolerable.

My point was that people project their fears onto others, violence is a LOT less common than many believe, and is rarely from strangers.

You're projecting on and about me also, from the looks of the post. All I will say is that I know this reality beyond my education. My education and the stats are counter to my own lived reality - I grew up in violence; but know I'm a statistical anomaly. Plus I'm old enough to have lived through times when things were a lot worse than they are today - stranger on stranger violence peaked in the 1980s in my part of the world, when I was in the thick of it. It's my distant memory, but I knew it. I also grew to the point where I take conscious effort not to project on others as I walk through the world.

Deleted that one sentence, which came from anger spurred by old and unwelcome memories.

Emily

 

[MorlockIam]

I'm surprised the women aren't Topless barmaids or in Lingerie as that is a common thing in mining and rural towns in Australia.

I'm Aussie and we are a lot more direct and have a harsh sense of humour. I had an American friend from NY State that would often be offended or startled by my sense of humour. We can be self deprecating which upset her Eat Pray Love sensibilities.

The use of the word "Cunt" in Australia can be applied in many ways. It can be a term of affection when addressing your best mate(s) "G'day Cunt(s), what's happening?" It can be used to attack someone "Fuck you cunt, wanna have a go?" and it can simply mean that you do not know the person's name "Look at that cunt over there!" Best not to have a thin skin or be easily offended by the word.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I'm surprised the women aren't Topless barmaids or in Lingerie as that is a common thing in mining and rural towns in Australia.

I'm Aussie and we are a lot more direct and have a harsh sense of humour. I had an American friend from NY State that would often be offended or startled by my sense of humour. We can be self deprecating which upset her Eat Pray Love sensibilities.

The use of the word "Cunt" in Australia can be applied in many ways. It can be a term of affection when addressing your best mate(s) "G'day Cunt(s), what's happening?" It can be used to attack someone "Fuck you cunt, wanna have a go?" and it can simply mean that you do not know the person's name "Look at that cunt over there!" Best not to have a thin skin or be easily offended by the word.

It’s an Australian movie, made by an Australian director and written by her and an Australian guy.

Emily

 

[MorlockIam]

It’s an Australian movie, made by an Australian director and written by her and an Australian guy.

Emily

Sure but people from other countries watching it or reading about it may not get all the cultural nuances. I read that American audiences found the men in the film to be creepy whilst Australian audiences found the men to be affable. I haven't seen the film so can't comment on that. But it could again be a cultural thing.

 

[EmilyMiller]

haven't seen the film so can't comment on that.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Again the title of this thread is:

For any men seeking to understand their potential impact on women…​

If you are uninterested in enlightenment on this topic, then this is not the thread for you.

In particular, none of the following is going to to be helpful:

1. Seeking to mimimize the female experience
2. Telling women what they ought to feel and think
3. Pointing out that the vast majority of guys are lovely - well d’oh! - it’s the small minority women are worried about (and not being able to easily detect them in advance)
4. Saying it’s tough being a guy sometimes - no shit Sherlock, but maybe start another thread to expand on this

Emily

 

[EmilyMiller]

Thanks for this post, Em. It’s very thought provoking. There are times when I can relate.

I don’t ‘pass’ as female but I usually dress in non gender conforming ways when I’m out and about. The less cis I present and the less familiar the surroundings, the more the hamster brain switches on.

I presume this is why so many women travel in packs and why so many like big strong men as partners. My wife doesn’t mind when I’m femme in familiar and safe surroundings but other times she feels safer when I’m in full guy mode.

I’ve had some very uncomfortable experiences but nothing where I felt in imminent danger as a vulnerable objectivized person.

When I’m in guy mode I just go wherever without much care. Being out at night in a skirt and walking home from the pub I’ve had times when something happened - like big truck slowing down behind me - the hair stands up on the back of my neck. Do I turn around and let them see that I’m not a girl, or would that be worse? How fast can I make it to the next corner or the next street lamp? Why didn’t I bring my kubaton? A busy street with cars passing to and fro is easy, but an empty dark street with a slowing big redneck truck?

Guy mode is definitely less stressful.

That’s a really valuable perspective. One I think many could learn from.

Emily

 

[EmilyMiller]

True from my experience. I've done a fair amount of online dating and had lots of interesting conversations with women about previous dates they've had. It's eye-opening and educational, and somewhat discouraging about my sex; I listen closely and inside my head constantly remind myself, "Don't do THAT."

Most women will have stories. It’s this almost banal stuff, not strangers lurking with a knife, that is the driver of worry.

Emily

 

[UWERETHINKINGIT]

I’d read about Kitty Green’s movie, Royal Hotel, but hadn’t got round to watching it until this week. We saw it over two nights, finishing last night.

It’s about two female American backpackers, who run out of cash in Australia and have to take the only jobs available, as bartenders at a remote mining community. If this set-up is seen as fanciful, it’s actually adapted from a documentary about two Finnish backpackers who had the same thing happen to them IRL, plus the director / co-writer’s own experiences.

Without getting into spoilers, the entire movie is about how women act around men and men act around women. Obviously as it’s a remote mining community, the guys are a bit rough at the edges (though not tropey IMO). Green goes out of her way to not make any of the men 2D villains. Even the most obvious “bad guy” has redeeming features and may just be misunderstood. Not understanding intention is a big theme.

Neither of the women are sure how to respond to the situation. Are some comments jokes, or are they meant to demean? Are the women in any danger, or are the guys just drunk and lonely? Is the banter and crude conversation just guys letting off steam, or something more sinister? This is compounded by cultural aspects, is this normal in Australia, when not so much in American? As if on cue for Lit, the use of the word “cunt” is one such area of potential misunderstanding.

One of the women reacts to the circumstances by shutting people out. Does that only encourage them to go at her harder, does this approach make things worse? The other embraces things and goes with the flow. Is that just asking for more of the same treatment? The movie doesn’t take sides. While the women’s growing unease is real, it’s never clear whether it is wholly warranted.

The movie is laced with a sense of dread, that the two FMCs are doomed and on a path to some awful ending. It’s almost Hitchcockian. But is that real, or their misunderstanding of how things are in this place and culture?

Taking to one side the foreign (speaking as an American) setting and the exaggerated (somewhat) behavior of the men, it resonated with me. We spend a lot of time trying to be safe. But it’s never clear if safety is best achieved by being a fun girl, or a cool bitch. Which is less likely to provoke a negative reaction? Which is less likely to lead to people misunderstanding what we want and don’t want?

In some social circumstances, it can feel like the hamster is on steroids, calibrating and recalibrating in real time.

I’m not in the least saying men are bad, or even that a significant minority are. But, you have to be careful, because a small minority are not good guys, and it’s not like they have a stamp on their forehead identifying them. Any guy might be a threat, which leads some women to often treating all new men (and some familiar ones) with some caution.

I’m not trying to demonize anyone. But if – in your writing and personal life – you want to better understand the female condition and maybe why some women (me included) react how we do here and IRL, then watch this movie.

Oh, and Julia Garner is amazing in it.

Emily

Note for Americans: I think it was free on Hulu, but I may have misremembered

 

[EmilyMiller]

Cool post - what’s this ignore button for again? Let’s see.

Emily

 

[MorlockIam]

What is that meant to mean? I commented on your post like many other people did. It seems you are looking to demean and fight with people.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Actually , “womansplaining” would be a woman talking over a man and correcting or dismissing his explanation of a topic he was qualified to comment on.

 

[nice90sguy]

All generalisations are subject to caveats (except this one).

 

[UWERETHINKINGIT]

Actually , “womansplaining” would be a woman talking over a man and correcting or dismissing his explanation of a topic he was qualified to comment on.

 

[MorlockIam]

Actually , “womansplaining” would be a woman talking over a man and correcting or dismissing his explanation of a topic he was qualified to comment on.

So basically what you just did.

 

[EmilyMiller]

It’s kinda funny. Someone used their 7th post here to attack another member, demonstrating a total lack of any understanding about the subject and also then that they didn’t read the OP (or failed to comprehend it). Weird behavior right? And an example of either:

1. The way some men feel is OK to act towards women
2. People who are too afraid of how they might look attacking others and create an alt to do it

Either way

Emily

 

[UWERETHINKINGIT]

It’s kinda funny. Someone used their 7th post here to attack another member, demonstrating a total lack of any understanding about the subject and also then that they didn’t read the OP (or failed to comprehend it). Weird behavior right? And an example of either:

1. The way some men feel is OK to act towards women
2. People who are too afraid of how they might look attacking others and create an alt to do it

Either way

Emily

Attack? That was an attack?? Dramatize much?

 

[EmilyMiller]

I don’t even have to make my own points anymore, just let others keep digging that hole .

Emily

 

[EmilyMiller]

I’d like to add that @tenyari and I have a better understanding of each others POV now. So one good thing to come out of this thread.

Easy to misread intent and hard to know what may be triggering to others. Live and learn, right?

Emily

 

[AlexBailey]

More ‘hamster brain’ experience I’ve only had in girl mode:

I went to a rowdy New Year’s Eve concert when I was 19. I had long curly brown hair, a borrowed wide necked red top and wore Levi’s jeans and leather sandals. My ass was grabbed by random strangers more times than I could count.

This wasn’t some sunny outdoor festival, this was Lenyard Skynard at the Cow Palace. Why the fuck did I agree to come? I should have dressed straight for this but I wanted to dress fun for new year. I knew it wouldn’t be my scene but my friends insisted.

It was scary. The first couple of times I felt a hand grope me I turned around and caught eyes with the guys who did it. I was easily mistakable as female at a glance but eye to eye I could see the gears working as they clocked me. Shock, anger, betrayal… like I was doing something wrong.

I stopped turning around. It was unnerving and scary. I love fun and affection but this was non-consensual and unnerving - violating. The random unknown made it dangerous.

Is this what women put up with? Is this the cost of being attractive in public? Why is it okay to violate me? Are they pigs by nature or did someone teach them this is okay behavior? They’re probably just like my stepbrother - entitled and self righteous, probably think they’re giving a ‘girl’ a compliment.

Should I dress differently for my own protection? I like dressing cute but does that give them license? Will they be doing god a favor if they punch me in the face? That guy keeps checking me out. Should I smile? Should I avoid eye contact? Should I give him stink eye? Shit, where did my friends go?

The next big concert I went to I was in full guy mode. I felt drab and boring and not myself but I was relaxed and enjoyed the music more. I understand perfectly well why women dress down for some events. Just be yourself? That can require armor.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Is this what women put up with? Is this the cost of being attractive in public? Why is it okay to violate me? Are they pigs by nature or did someone teach them this is okay behavior? They’re probably just like my stepbrother - entitled and self righteous, probably think they’re giving a ‘girl’ a compliment.

Should I dress differently for my own protection? I like dressing cute but does that give them license? Will they be doing god a favor if they punch me in the face? That guy keeps checking me out. Should I smile? Should I avoid eye contact? Should I give him stink eye? Shit, where did my friends go?

It’s really amazing that you have this perspective. I mean it must have sucked badly at the time. But so many guys have this “what’s the problem?” attitude. “Why do women bitch so much about getting attention, they want it don’t they?”

I think there is this underlying assumption that women choose how to dress only with guys in mind. Not like maybe I just like wearing this. It’s normally the opposite, there are outfits I love that I’ll only wear to certain places, as I know someone will get the wrong idea. It sucks to have to think that way.

Maybe it should be mandatory to do what you did. I know it’s who you are, not an experiment, but maybe all guys should I feel what it’s like to be a woman round some men just once. Then we wouldn’t have to “womansplain” so much.

Emily

 

[UWERETHINKINGIT]

Oh stop… you know you love to splain things to …everyone! You’re welcome.

You must be a hoot around the house.

Save it. I’ll see myself out. You’re kind of tiring for a know it all.
Ignore.

 

[countdowntolov3]

Statistically don't fear the large guy walking down the street near you at 3am or the awkwardly weird guy at the bar you hooked up with on a dating app, fear your brother's best friend, your boyfriend's roommate, your own family, your pastor, etc.

Something that I think gets lost in this line of thinking is that this statistic doesn't show that the risk of random (and probably violent or deadly) attacks is not there. It may just indicate that women somewhat successfully avoid the situations in which these attacks would occur.

To put it another way: This is an important statistic. But interpreting it as, "women see danger where there isn't" is unfair. And I know that's not the interpretation you were making. It's just a common one I see associated with the observation.