Gay & Lesbian Parenting Poll...

[PricelessT]

rbone04, I got confused when you stated "Also, bisexual parent(s) don't necessarily fall into the category of "same-sex marriage."

You seemed to be saying that same-sex couples where one or both partners identify as bisexual may not fit into the same-sex couple category (specifically the same-sex marriage category), and I was wondering: How do they not fit? What other category is there for two parents of the same sex? I was basically saying, "There's not a separate category just because one or both partners may be bisexual. They are still a same-sex couple." But, yeah, I didn't mean for this thread to get somewhat off-topic, so I apologize for that.

 

[ndoorfin]

why can't you put people that love their children
it doesn't matter who the fuck they are

 

[Kurokami]

why can't you put people that love their children
it doesn't matter who the fuck they are

Simple yet effective.

I have twin daughters and since their birth the circumstances of their parentage have changed from a bisexual mother and father couple to a mother/father/second woman (we're going with aunt for various reasons.) What hasn't changed is our love for them, or our efficacy as parents. Really, sexual orientation or the configuration of the parental unit doesn't matter as much as simple affection for the children, in the end.

 

[rbone04]

why can't you put people that love their children
it doesn't matter who the fuck they are

Nobody said you can't. In fact... That was my opinion (see below) just as it is yours, but not everyone's.

any couple who are stable and devoted to each other and to the welfare of the kids makes a good parent.

Sorry the poll took a minute... And I agree 100%

 

[Safe_Bet]

I'm kind of disgustingly bemused by the results of the poll so far:

1 vote for lesbians (from me - even though I posted the only documented evidence that lesbians are better parents) = this tells me how many lesbians have fled this forum because of the bigotry against us.

6 votes for Straight Gay Haters (WTF Are you doing here in the first place???) = which tells me that the fundie, Maggie Galaghers of the world read this forum to keep an eye on us homos!

And

8 votes for "Other" = which in RL is a microscopic portion of the population.


Interesting results and a pretty accurate indication of how skewed this forum has become. It also is about as valid as flying pigs.

 

[rbone04]

rbone04, I got confused when you stated "Also, bisexual parent(s) don't necessarily fall into the category of "same-sex marriage."

You seemed to be saying that same-sex couples where one or both partners identify as bisexual may not fit into the same-sex couple category (specifically the same-sex marriage category), and I was wondering: How do they not fit? What other category is there for two parents of the same sex? I was basically saying, "There's not a separate category just because one or both partners may be bisexual. They are still a same-sex couple." But, yeah, I didn't mean for this thread to get somewhat off-topic, so I apologize for that.

No worries... That's why I left the topic open to people who can actually shed light on it rather than even bring it up. For instance...

Simple yet effective.

I have twin daughters and since their birth the circumstances of their parentage have changed from a bisexual mother and father couple to a mother/father/second woman (we're going with aunt for various reasons.) What hasn't changed is our love for them, or our efficacy as parents. Really, sexual orientation or the configuration of the parental unit doesn't matter as much as simple affection for the children, in the end.

Not that I'm judging your decision. In fact, I think its a wonderful thing and I am sure you are wonderful parents. That said,

A certain level of maturity is in order to explain this to a child without their head exploding. I do, however, sense that sexual orientation could fall into the bucket of "various reasons". If they're too young to understand this is a no-brainer. If they aren't though, I think this does matter a little. Not saying this is a good or bad thing because I don't know, but at some point they will figure it out on their own which might matter.

 

[Safe_Bet]

A certain level of maturity is in order to explain this to a child without their head exploding. I do, however, sense that sexual orientation could fall into the bucket of "various reasons". If they're too young to understand this is a no-brainer. If they aren't though, I think this does matter a little. Not saying this is a good or bad thing because I don't know, but at some point they will figure it out on their own which might matter.

Whose heads are going to explode? The kids or the parents?

I can tell you from experience it's not the kids! As a queer parent I've associated with 100s of other queer parents over the years and the kids NEVER have a problem with it. It is either us parents experiencing angst over it or fundie asshat flipping out.

 

[rbone04]

I'm kind of disgustingly bemused by the results of the poll so far:

1 vote for lesbians (from me - even though I posted the only documented evidence that lesbians are better parents) = this tells me how many lesbians have fled this forum because of the bigotry against us.

6 votes for Straight Gay Haters (WTF Are you doing here in the first place???) = which tells me that the fundie, Maggie Galaghers of the world read this forum to keep an eye on us homos!

And

8 votes for "Other" = which in RL is a microscopic portion of the population.


Interesting results and a pretty accurate indication of how skewed this forum has become. It also is about as valid as flying pigs.

Whoa there... I think the big problem is the only people choosing other are the ones who think parental configuration doesn't matter... Perhaps it's how I framed the question and failed to leave a box for "Don't think it matters" since it obviously creates another issue.

I will also say, even though I fall in this category, you are indeed the only one with scientific proof otherwise. So even though I've been asked so matter-of-factly "what's the point as long as they're loving" a half-dozen times and counting... There is clearly a solid argument that it does matter and there is a point.

 

[Kurokami]

I'm kind of disgustingly bemused by the results of the poll so far:

1 vote for lesbians (from me - even though I posted the only documented evidence that lesbians are better parents) = this tells me how many lesbians have fled this forum because of the bigotry against us.

6 votes for Straight Gay Haters (WTF Are you doing here in the first place???) = which tells me that the fundie, Maggie Galaghers of the world read this forum to keep an eye on us homos!

And

8 votes for "Other" = which in RL is a microscopic portion of the population.


Interesting results and a pretty accurate indication of how skewed this forum has become. It also is about as valid as flying pigs.

I'm not going to comment on the six votes side of things because honestly that's a bit confusing to me too, but I will on where- and why- you placed your vote. Of course I respect your right to have an opinion but I think you're wrong, documented evidence or no. Aside from the fact that I guarantee you that if I wanted to I could find plenty of (probably skewed or religious backed, but still) studies showing that homosexual parents are far worse than straight parents... I just don't think sexual orientation matters when it comes to raising kids. I'm sure there are absolutely fantastic lesbian mothers, just as I'm equally sure there are fantastic straight mothers and fathers, gay fathers, and transgender parents too. I'm also sure I could find more than a few shitty parents no matter where I look. It's a matter of love for the child, not whether the parents prefer men or women.

Me? I didn't vote in the poll, precisely because of that. I'm willing to bet I'm not alone in doing so. And it's hardly evidence of a skew in the readership of this forum that your preferred option hasn't gotten more votes anyway. It just means nobody bothered to vote in an internet poll.

Not that I'm judging your decision. In fact, I think its a wonderful thing and I am sure you are wonderful parents. That said,

A certain level of maturity is in order to explain this to a child without their head exploding. I do, however, sense that sexual orientation could fall into the bucket of "various reasons". If they're too young to understand this is a no-brainer. If they aren't though, I think this does matter a little. Not saying this is a good or bad thing because I don't know, but at some point they will figure it out on their own which might matter.

Thanks for the non-judgmental tone, it's much appreciated. My kids aren't even a year old yet; when I said we're calling the woman in our threesome that isn't the mother their aunt, it's because she wasn't with us when the decision to have kids was made, so we all agree she's got no obligation to care for them as if they were her own. She does love them, and we're thankful for any help she does give us, but we're careful not to put any pressure or expectation on her to care for them, since we made them without her.

It's also quite a new relationship, so perhaps down the line when the kids are older they may have two mums, who knows? And of course, once they do get to an age where they become curious, we'll explain it to them as gently as possible. But we'll cross that bridge when we come to it

 

[rbone04]

Whose heads are going to explode? The kids or the parents?

I can tell you from experience it's not the kids! As a queer parent I've associated with 100s of other queer parents over the years and the kids NEVER have a problem with it. It is either us parents experiencing angst over it or fundie asshat flipping out.

Comforting to know... THIS is the entire point of the thread. It's all speculation unless you hear it how it really is and not how it's perceived or expected by those inexperienced with it.

 

[Kurokami]

Whose heads are going to explode? The kids or the parents?

I can tell you from experience it's not the kids! As a queer parent I've associated with 100s of other queer parents over the years and the kids NEVER have a problem with it. It is either us parents experiencing angst over it or fundie asshat flipping out.

I am more worried about fundie asshats finding out when my children get to be school aged and start talking, yes.

 

[TallOne]

Other

Another vote for personality/parenting style/etc having a lot more to do with it than gender/orientation.

So Safe_Bet, would you fear having a straight(but loves cock) fundamentalist boy like fundies fear having a homosexual kid?

 

[rbone04]

...Me? I didn't vote in the poll, precisely because of that. I'm willing to bet I'm not alone in doing so. And it's hardly evidence of a skew in the readership of this forum that your preferred option hasn't gotten more votes anyway. It just means nobody bothered to vote in an internet poll.



Thanks for the non-judgmental tone, it's much appreciated. My kids aren't even a year old yet; when I said we're calling the woman in our threesome that isn't the mother their aunt, it's because she wasn't with us when the decision to have kids was made, so we all agree she's got no obligation to care for them as if they were her own. She does love them, and we're thankful for any help she does give us, but we're careful not to put any pressure or expectation on her to care for them, since we made them without her.

It's also quite a new relationship, so perhaps down the line when the kids are older they may have two mums, who knows? And of course, once they do get to an age where they become curious, we'll explain it to them as gently as possible. But we'll cross that bridge when we come to it

You are very welcome, and I appreciate your clarification of the situation... Very well thought out by you and your family which is the beauty mentioned in an earlier post about GLBT parenting. As for the bolded part above, the poll is obviously going to be quite skewed b/c of my oversight but the discussion is what counts. I'll edit my OP soon to clarify to encourage more productive discussion like this.

 

[Safe_Bet]

I'm not going to comment on the six votes side of things because honestly that's a bit confusing to me too, but I will on where- and why- you placed your vote. Of course I respect your right to have an opinion but I think you're wrong, documented evidence or no. Aside from the fact that I guarantee you that if I wanted to I could find plenty of (probably skewed or religious backed, but still) studies showing that homosexual parents are far worse than straight parents... I just don't think sexual orientation matters when it comes to raising kids. I'm sure there are absolutely fantastic lesbian mothers, just as I'm equally sure there are fantastic straight mothers and fathers, gay fathers, and transgender parents too. I'm also sure I could find more than a few shitty parents no matter where I look. It's a matter of love for the child, not whether the parents prefer men or women.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Okay, you believe I'm wrong IN SPITE of the documented, peer reviewed study published in a renowned medical journal and in defense of these beliefs you offer some "I'm not gonna be arsed to find them" theoretical studies that you admit are biased. You then go on by saying, "Yeah, but there are good and bad parents in EVERY group". Did I get that right? Can you see why I don't give any credence to your viewpoint?

Undeniably, there are good and bad parents in every group. But what we are discussing here are the GROUPS not individuals. In SEVERAL studies lesbians have been PROVEN to be superior parents. This isn't saying that they love their kids more or that anyone else doesn't love their kids as much. What it does say is that there are certain skill sets that lesbian parents exhibit MORE that lead to better adjusted, happier children. That's the ONLY real criteria on who is and who's not the best parents, IMO. Loving you kids is a given for most all parents, but has damn little to do with what makes the best parents.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Another vote for personality/parenting style/etc having a lot more to do with it than gender/orientation.

So Safe_Bet, would you fear having a straight(but loves cock) fundamentalist boy like fundies fear having a homosexual kid?

**Snerk**

Dude, I all ready have two straight daughters so that obviously ain't an issue.

As for having a boy? Not a problem with that (other then the pregnant part - my late wife was the "birther" in our family). I will tell you however, of I did have a boy child he would be a damn sight less confused about his sexuality then most of the "I like cock, but not men" asshats running around here!

 

[rbone04]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Okay, you believe I'm wrong IN SPITE of the documented, peer reviewed study published in a renowned medical journal and in defense of these beliefs you offer some "I'm not gonna be arsed to find them" theoretical studies that you admit are biased. You then go on by saying, "Yeah, but there are good and bad parents in EVERY group". Did I get that right? Can you see why I don't give any credence to your viewpoint?

Undeniably, there are good and bad parents in every group. But what we are discussing here are the GROUPS not individuals. In SEVERAL studies lesbians have been PROVEN to be superior parents. This isn't saying that they love their kids more or that anyone else doesn't love their kids as much. What it does say is that there are certain skill sets that lesbian parents exhibit MORE that lead to better adjusted, happier children. That's the ONLY real criteria on who is and who's not the best parents, IMO. Loving you kids is a given for most all parents, but has damn little to do with what makes the best parents.

Only thing I would like to point out is that this is a very small study. 78 data points makes not an accurate representation of the whole. Also, note the very first line of the results states "According to their mothers' reports..." and goes on to mention all of the indicator results.

Valid source... Yes. Conclusive... Not even close, but it is the only evidence on the board.

 

[Kurokami]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Okay, you believe I'm wrong IN SPITE of the documented, peer reviewed study published in a renowned medical journal and in defense of these beliefs you offer some "I'm not gonna be arsed to find them" theoretical studies that you admit are biased. You then go on by saying, "Yeah, but there are good and bad parents in EVERY group". Did I get that right? Can you see why I don't give any credence to your viewpoint?

Undeniably, there are good and bad parents in every group. But what we are discussing here are the GROUPS not individuals. In SEVERAL studies lesbians have been PROVEN to be superior parents. This isn't saying that they love their kids more or that anyone else doesn't love their kids as much. What it does say is that there are certain skill sets that lesbian parents exhibit MORE that lead to better adjusted, happier children. That's the ONLY real criteria on who is and who's not the best parents, IMO. Loving you kids is a given for most all parents, but has damn little to do with what makes the best parents.

Okay yes, in retrospect I probably could have thought out my post a little better. I admit that. The reason that I couldn't be bothered actually finding any studies to back up my response is that frankly I didn't feel like playing devil's advocate when I agree with the premise that lesbian parents can- and often are- great parents. To me, this is because, by and large, when a lesbian couple has a child, it's because they consciously decided to have one, and often have to work damn hard to acquire one. Oddly, there aren't many instances of accidental pregnancy among lesbians

But do I think this makes them inherently superior to straight of bisexual parents? No. I think it makes them different in many key respects, and I think those can often result in a more well rounded child, but that's no indication of systemic superiority, mostly because none of the traits that cause their children to be well rounded and happy are exclusive to lesbians. Simply being gay does not give you special insight on how to be a parent.

 

[rbone04]

Only thing I would like to point out is that this is a very small study. 78 data points makes not an accurate representation of the whole. Also, note the very first line of the results states "According to their mothers' reports..." and goes on to mention all of the indicator results.

Valid source... Yes. Conclusive... Not even close, but it is the only evidence on the board.

I retract this statement... After researching the author, Nanette Gartrell, MD and her spouse, Diane "Dee" Mosbacher, MD, PhD, this holds no water to me. Biased research articles are like glorified OP ED pieces.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Only thing I would like to point out is that this is a very small study. 78 data points makes not an accurate representation of the whole. Also, note the very first line of the results states "According to their mothers' reports..." and goes on to mention all of the indicator results.

Valid source... Yes. Conclusive... Not even close, but it is the only evidence on the board.

As best as I can gather, there have been 80+ studies on gay parenting (yeah, I'm anal about knowing about it because it hits so close to home). Included in these studies are at least three additional ones that are lesbian specific (which, of course, I can't find at the moment but I'm still looking) that cite that the children of lesbians do as well, and usually across the board better, than any other group.

Again, I want to stress that these are studies of groups, not individuals. There are great and crappy parents in every group. Additionally, I think you'll find, if you'd be arsed to actually do the research, a comprehensive 10 year study involving a final number of 78 families is very valid, accurate & normal. This is because of the study parameters and due to attrition over the course of a study of this length. So don't discount it due to the numbers. That's a trick that the fundies like NOM have tried and have been bitch slapped by the scientific community over.

EDIT: BTW, are you implying (by bring up the line about "complete by mothers") that the responses by lesbians are somehow less true than those of other respondents???? Seriously?

 

[Safe_Bet]

I retract this statement... After researching the author, Nanette Gartrell, MD and her spouse, Diane "Dee" Mosbacher, MD, PhD, this holds no water to me. Biased research articles are like glorified OP ED pieces.

Dude, does peer reviewed, 10 year study conducted under the auspices of a major university and published in a peered reviewed medical journal mean anything to you? This isn't some whackos opinion. To disregard the study do to the orientation of the researchers is ignorant at best and homophobic & misogynistic at worse.

 

[rbone04]

Dude, does peer reviewed, 10 year study conducted under the auspices of a major university and published in a peered reviewed medical journal mean anything to you? This isn't some whackos opinion. To disregard the study do to the orientation of the researchers is ignorant at best and homophobic & misogynistic at worse.

This study means little to me because the data collected was quantified from what the mothers answered. Why would a lesbian mother answer questions unfavorably in a study designed to show the effectiveness of their parenting ability?

I don't disregard the data because of the author's orientation but when you consider their effortless data collection method, someone (like me) might gather that the author knew this would happen anyways. I'm not saying their data isn't real, but they didn't observe anything... They just took a poll 10 years later.

Attack me all you want... You're quick to defend the indefensible yet you clearly forgot the respect I gave you for your own personal experience which I award far more validity than shitty science. Open your fucking eyes and realize my criticism of this study's shortcomings in no way prove me to be homophobic or mysoginistic.

 

[Safe_Bet]

I retract this statement... After researching the author, Nanette Gartrell, MD and her spouse, Diane "Dee" Mosbacher, MD, PhD, this holds no water to me. Biased research articles are like glorified OP ED pieces.

This study means little to me because the data collected was quantified from what the mothers answered. Why would a lesbian mother answer questions unfavorably in a study designed to show the effectiveness of their parenting ability?

I don't disregard the data because of the author's orientation but when you consider their effortless data collection method, someone (like me) might gather that the author knew this would happen anyways. I'm not saying their data isn't real, but they didn't observe anything... They just took a poll 10 years later.

Attack me all you want... You're quick to defend the indefensible yet you clearly forgot the respect I gave you for your own personal experience which I award far more validity than shitty science. Open your fucking eyes and realize my criticism of this study's shortcomings in no way prove me to be homophobic or mysoginistic.

Ummmm... Actually that's NOT the reason you gave for initially gave. (you stated that after researching the RESEARCHERS you decided that they were biased - obviously because two of the three researchers are married lesbians).

None the less, let's look at it your way: you discredit it "because the data collected was quantified from what the mothers answered.", correct?

For part of my response to that I have to say "NO SHIT SHERLOCK!". You obviously didn't really read the study did ya? Of course much of the data was provided by the parents! The study was of lesbian women who received IVF. The first interview was shortly after conception, the second was two years after, etc. damn few two year olds complete surveys, dude.

The fact of the matter is that much of the study was completed by the children (once old enough), yes some was completed by the parents (I still question your implication that only lesbian mothers would lie) and the rest was derived from 77 different other sources & references.

Now I'm SURE none of the good hetero women, whose responses & resulting data were used, would have "stretched the truth", right?

Maybe, I was hasty in accusing homophobia & misogyny. To be guilty of that you'd have had to have actually read the study to know what the hell you we're talking about. So, in the interest of global peace & harmony, I'll just call it willful ignorance.

BTW, "what would someone like 'you'" expect them to do to collect the data? Follow every freakin participant around 24/7 for ten years????

 

[rbone04]

Ummmm... Actually that's NOT the reason you gave for initially gave. (you stated that after researching the RESEARCHERS you decided that they were biased - obviously because two of the three researchers are married lesbians).

None the less, let's look at it your way: you discredit it "because the data collected was quantified from what the mothers answered.", correct?

For part of my response to that I have to say "NO SHIT SHERLOCK!". You obviously didn't really read the study did ya? Of course much of the data was provided by the parents! The study was of lesbian women who received IVF. The first interview was shortly after conception, the second was two years after, etc. damn few two year olds complete surveys, dude.

The fact of the matter is that much of the study was completed by the children (once old enough), yes some was completed by the parents (I still question your implication that only lesbian mothers would lie) and the rest was derived from 77 different other sources & references.

Now I'm SURE none of the good hetero women, whose responses & resulting data were used, would have "stretched the truth", right?

Maybe, I was hasty in accusing homophobia & misogyny. To be guilty of that you'd have had to have actually read the study to know what the hell you we're talking about. So, in the interest of global peace & harmony, I'll just call it willful ignorance.

BTW, "what would someone like 'you'" expect them to do to collect the data? Follow every freakin participant around 24/7 for ten years????

Would have been more accurate. Apparently the American Psychological Association feels the same way. See the last paragraph on pg. 20 of THIS BRIEFING.

 

[rbone04]

And yes... By definition, the fact that they are lesbians makes this research biased. My problem isn't with that but IN COMBINATION with a poorly designed study, the evidence is garbage.

 

[rbone04]

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2010/06/07/peds.2009-3153.abstract


'Nuff said. If anyone else can do better show me the study proving it! (and no, a study by NOM doesn't count).

Oh and one more thing... For someone who just accused me of not reading the article above... You clearly read everything BUT the conclusion which states NOTHING ABOUT LESBIANS BEING BETTER PARENTS as you so vehemently proclaimed. See below...

I'm kind of disgustingly bemused by the results of the poll so far:

1 vote for lesbians (from me - even though I posted the only documented evidence that lesbians are better parents) = this tells me how many lesbians have fled this forum because of the bigotry against us.

6 votes for Straight Gay Haters (WTF Are you doing here in the first place???) = which tells me that the fundie, Maggie Galaghers of the world read this forum to keep an eye on us homos!

And

8 votes for "Other" = which in RL is a microscopic portion of the population.


Interesting results and a pretty accurate indication of how skewed this forum has become. It also is about as valid as flying pigs.

From the article...

"Conclusions: Adolescents who have been reared in lesbian-mother families since birth demonstrate healthy psychological adjustment. These findings have implications for the clinical care of adolescents and for pediatricians who are consulted on matters that pertain to same-sex parenting."

Where does it say they make better parents?