'Gay' vs 'really gay'?

[yourdestonie]

You aren't gay, you are straight. So it isn't up to you to tell gays and lesbians how they ought to react to anything.

You have never posted in this forum before, but you saw fit to come in and criticize the way we reacted to Mayberry's smear against gays. Is there any reason why I, or anyone else, ought to give any weight to your opinion?

Oh I see because I choose not to be gay I don't have the rights to post anything on the subject. Well to be honest I don't remember postint anything about Gay or straight you've once again twisted someones words to assume gay bashing. I was simply posting against bashing of anytype. You can't ask people to not bash you, all the while bashing them.

You are just as Intollerant as anyone in the world while asking everyonr else to be tollerant.

I've read back over both of my posts on this and no where in eather of them did I bash anyone. I simply pointed out that you can't expect people to treat you any different than you treat them.

Show me where I did anything else.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Well why the fuck didnt you say that on page two and save everybody all that typing?

Well, most of the typing went on without me?

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

straight boys who can't take what they dish out are funny.

especially when they pout.

I'm not letting you read my comic books.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

When somebody who isnt gay comes on a gay message board and starts in about what he doesnt like about gays, things arent all even.
Im not going to buy into the BS that when queers fight back against people who disrespect them they are the same as the jerks who started it.
No offense but I dont think straight people ought to be coming in here and wagging their fingers at us.

Hmmmm...nothing against gay people, in general. Then again, I don't buy into that 'all for one, one for all' idea, that all gay people must support all other gay people from straight people's criticisms. Granted, I understand it, even if I don't agree with it. At the same time, I don't believe that a criticism of a subgroup is a bashing of the larger community. It is like saying that making fun of hip-hop fashion is anti-black, or saying my extreme dislike of boy-bands makes me anti-white males.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

You aren't gay, you are straight. So it isn't up to you to tell gays and lesbians how they ought to react to anything.

You have never posted in this forum before, but you saw fit to come in and criticize the way we reacted to Mayberry's smear against gays. Is there any reason why I, or anyone else, ought to give any weight to your opinion?

Just because?

 

[Queersetti]

Oh I see because I choose not to be gay I don't have the rights to post anything on the subject. Well to be honest I don't remember postint anything about Gay or straight you've once again twisted someones words to assume gay bashing. I was simply posting against bashing of anytype. You can't ask people to not bash you, all the while bashing them.

You are just as Intollerant as anyone in the world while asking everyonr else to be tollerant.

I've read back over both of my posts on this and no where in eather of them did I bash anyone. I simply pointed out that you can't expect people to treat you any different than you treat them.

Show me where I did anything else.

At no point did I accuse you of gay bashing. You are awfully dramatic, aren't you?

Try to follow closely.

You are, as you have said, a straight woman.

The issue here is how gays and lesbians reacted to remarks that were clearly hostile towards a segment of the gay community.

You, the aforementioned straight woman, have no frame of reference as to how it feels to be a gay person and therefore, your opinion of how gays ought to react in this situation carries no weight.

You did not, as you claim, post against bashing of any type. Go back and read your own posts again. You only criticized the gay posters, and you made excuses for Mayberry's attack which started the thread. You accuse us of intolerance because we defended ourselves. For whatever reason, you saw no need to similarly chastise Mayberry for his comments.

Let me be clear about something else here. I am not asking anyone to be tolerant. I am telling them that their intolerance will be fought. The days when we beg to be accepted are over. We are who we are, and I don't really care if you like it or not.

 

[Rhys]

Let me be clear about something else here. I am not asking anyone to be tolerant. I am telling them that their intolerance will be fought. The days when we beg to be accepted are over. We are who we are, and I don't really care if you like it or not.

Bravo!

 

[Queersetti]

Hmmmm...nothing against gay people, in general. Then again, I don't buy into that 'all for one, one for all' idea, that all gay people must support all other gay people from straight people's criticisms. Granted, I understand it, even if I don't agree with it. At the same time, I don't believe that a criticism of a subgroup is a bashing of the larger community. It is like saying that making fun of hip-hop fashion is anti-black, or saying my extreme dislike of boy-bands makes me anti-white males.

I am sure you honestly believe that you haven't said anything that would give the impression that you are anti-gay, but at the same time, you must realize that all the heat in this discussion didn't just materialize out of thin air.

I hope you will consider that the impression you have given many of us is that you have a condescending attitude, that you support gays as long as we are the kind of gays you think we should be, and that you believe we ought to be grateful for your approval.

Perhaps that is all a misunderstanding, but if so, it stems from what you have posted. Look at your quote above, please, and ask yourself why we should accept that it is your prerogative to agree or disagree with how gays feel about our own community.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Well...


Let me ask you a serious question: do you ever disagree with, or find yourself not accepting, certain behaviors that are lumped under the 'homosexual behavior' category?

 

[Queersetti]

Well...


Let me ask you a serious question: do you ever disagree with, or find yourself not accepting, certain behaviors that are lumped under the 'homosexual behavior' category?

Yes, certainly. I doubt there is anyone in the gay community who agrees with every thing anyone else does.

However, I also recognize my common bond with other gays, even those with whom I disagree, and if I feel they are being targeted for attack from outside the community, that commonality takes precedence over our disagreement, and I will stand in solidarity with them.

A good example would be a group like ACT UP, which engaged in tactics I found unethical and distasteful. But when they came under fire from right wing groups, I defended them, because the larger issue was not what they had done, but the fact that they were attacked because they were a gay organization.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Yes, certainly. I doubt there is anyone in the gay community who agrees with every thing anyone else does.

However, I also recognize my common bond with other gays, even those with whom I disagree, and if I feel they are being targeted for attack from outside the community, that commonality takes precedence over our disagreement, and I will stand in solidarity with them.

A good example would be a group like ACT UP, which engaged in tactics I found unethical and distasteful. But when they came under fire from right wing groups, I defended them, because the larger issue was not what they had done, but the fact that they were attacked because they were a gay organization.

Hmmm...so ethics are less important than 'solidarity'? Or am I putting words in your mouth?

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

That was rude...never mind.

 

[just a thing]

The swishy, effeninate types, who play into the whole gay stereotype.

Can I ask a serious question about those guys?

Are they delibrately putting on a show behaving that way (for whatever reason)? Or is that their normal behavior?

I've often wondered this, but can never get a serious answer.

 

[Queersetti]

Hmmm...so ethics are less important than 'solidarity'? Or am I putting words in your mouth?

Actually, I think it's a fair question.

My answer is that ethics can conflict, and when they do, a decision has to be made as to which principle our conscience tells us is more important.

I am ethically opposed to non-consensual outing of gay celebrities.

I am also ethically opposed to anyone attacking people solely on the grounds that they are gay.

So, if a group like the Moral Majority attack ACT UP, not because they object to their specific tactic of outing, but because they oppose gays in general, I am presented with a choice of which ethical imperatives take precedence, and my choice is to stand in solidarity with the gays.

I do not see that as casting aside ethics, but of making the tough choice of how to apply them in the way that my conscience dictates.

 

[Queersetti]

Re: Re: 'Gay' vs 'really gay'?

Can I ask a serious question about those guys?

Are they delibrately putting on a show behaving that way (for whatever reason)? Or is that their normal behavior?

I've often wondered this, but can never get a serious answer.

I am not "swishy" and so I can't speak for anyone who is, but have you considered the possibility that putting on a show is their normal behavior?

 

[deliciously_naughty]

Re: Re: 'Gay' vs 'really gay'?

Can I ask a serious question about those guys?

Are they delibrately putting on a show behaving that way (for whatever reason)? Or is that their normal behavior?

I've often wondered this, but can never get a serious answer.

I would say that there are some men who do it to flaunt their sexuality. But they are the minority.

For the most part, the men I know who are "effeminante" "swishy" whatever, it's just how they are. I'm bossy, and occasionally bitchy. Has nothing to do with my sexuality, profession, or gender. It's just how I am. Conversely, I used to live with a straight guy who was often mistaken for being gay because his features had a feminine cast and he didn't go in for all that alpha male bullshit, when in truth he was just a sweet quiet brilliant computer geek.

People are people, not personality traits. Being swishy is just part of who many gay men are. And good for them for refusing to conform just to make others happy...if you're going to compromise who you are, why not go all out and marry a woman?

 

[MzChrista]

Didn't you get the memo?

We are supposed to be good little gays and lesbians who look and act and think in a manner that is perfectly indistinguishable from those nice straight people who have so graciously decided that we may live among them as long as we behave ourselves.

Well heres the thing.
A lot of straight liberals have a misunderstanding. They think they are going to be nice and tolerant and give us permission to be gay. It dont sink into their heads that its not up to them to give us permission.
They mean well, but they miss that point a lot of the time.

 

[MzChrista]

Oh I see because I choose not to be gay I don't have the rights to post anything on the subject. Well to be honest I don't remember postint anything about Gay or straight you've once again twisted someones words to assume gay bashing. I was simply posting against bashing of anytype. You can't ask people to not bash you, all the while bashing them.

You are just as Intollerant as anyone in the world while asking everyonr else to be tollerant.

I've read back over both of my posts on this and no where in eather of them did I bash anyone. I simply pointed out that you can't expect people to treat you any different than you treat them.

Show me where I did anything else.

What do you mean you choose not to be gay?

 

[MzChrista]

Well, most of the typing went on without me?

Well yeah and the bullet goes on without a person after they pull the trigger too.

 

[Never]

MzChrista:
"What do you mean you choose not to be gay?"

Before she was born she was in heaven sitting in the clouds with all the other little babies. God ambled up to her and said, "Hey you - pussy or cock?" and she replied, "Cock, but could you make me a sub?" and God was like, "I can dig it."

What, that's not how it happened to you?

 

[just a thing]

Re: Re: Re: 'Gay' vs 'really gay'?

I am not "swishy" and so I can't speak for anyone who is, but have you considered the possibility that putting on a show is their normal behavior?

Actually, I had considered that possibility.

Thanks for the input.

 

[just a thing]

Re: Re: Re: 'Gay' vs 'really gay'?

I would say that there are some men who do it to flaunt their sexuality. But they are the minority.

For the most part, the men I know who are "effeminante" "swishy" whatever, it's just how they are. I'm bossy, and occasionally bitchy. Has nothing to do with my sexuality, profession, or gender. It's just how I am. Conversely, I used to live with a straight guy who was often mistaken for being gay because his features had a feminine cast and he didn't go in for all that alpha male bullshit, when in truth he was just a sweet quiet brilliant computer geek.

A few do it delibrately; most have a naturally effeminate way to them.

Thanks, naughty. That was what I suspected but I could never find anyone to confirm it.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Well heres the thing.
A lot of straight liberals have a misunderstanding. They think they are going to be nice and tolerant and give us permission to be gay. It dont sink into their heads that its not up to them to give us permission.
They mean well, but they miss that point a lot of the time.

Trust me, I'm not trying to give anyone permission for anything, I've got enough on my plate without worrying about the other 6 billion of you act.

I dunno...I guess I deserve a knuckle punch to the kidneys for the way I expressed myself, even though I think some of my underlying ideas are valid.

 

[Never]

Johnny,
May I ask what those ideas are?

PS: This is not me trying to set you up for an attack. I believe sound often gets lost in noise.

 

[Queersetti]

Trust me, I'm not trying to give anyone permission for anything, I've got enough on my plate without worrying about the other 6 billion of you act.

I dunno...I guess I deserve a knuckle punch to the kidneys for the way I expressed myself, even though I think some of my underlying ideas are valid.

But if you say "I'll accept these gays but not those gays" or "I'll accept gays if they behave in a way that doesn't make me uncomfortable" you are, in effect, granting permission to be gay to some, and withholding it from others.

That is the crux of the objection to your remarks.

The problem with the idea that more "mainstream" gays and lesbians ought to disassociate themselves from our more flamboyant or controversial brothers and sisters in order to placate the discomfort of straights is simply not tenable, for several reasons.

As I expect to be accepted for my sexuality and insist on my right to express it as I see fit, I can not turn around and deny the same right to others.

And where will we draw that line? Is a little bit of sashaying alright. Will we establish guidelines for just how limp a man's wrist can be, or how spiky a woman can wear her hair?

And what assurances do we have that any such compromise would be acceptable? I think we can agree that there will always be straights to object to our very existence, and no moderation of our behavior or appearance will be sufficient to placate them.

It's been said so many times that it has become a cliche, but it remains appropriate.

We're here.

We're queer.

Get used to it.