'Gay' vs 'really gay'?

[Netzach]

There are certainly unpalatable fringes, as there are in any subculture.

I don't think guys who lisp are very high on that list, though.

Maybe if you asked a bear.

The bears I know are pretty mellow though.

 

[Queersetti]

I'll get over an us/them construct when I can rest assured about my job, safety, sanity, and rights, thank you.


Nothing was *ever* given to this community without being fought for, screamed in the street for, and by us, ourselves, foremost.


Nothing.

As I recall, it wasn't Yuppie guys in Brooks Brothers suits who fought the police at Stonewall.

It was drag queens.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

We weren't the ones who decided that we ought to be treated as second class citizens.

Well, you know what? I didn't make that decision either, so don't expect me to take the blame or the guilt for that one.

 

[Netzach]

As I recall, it wasn't Yuppie guys in Brooks Brothers suits who fought the police at Stonewall.

It was drag queens.

Yes.

Hey, I think you might be wrong in a way. Guys who lisp are dandy in the rainbow queer world, but amazonian drag queens, a lot of guys are entertained by but don't want featured on the news clips, we definitely have our own sense of undesirables.

And as long as we try to be appealing and cute and winning to straight people who are going to be good to us if we toe the line, we're fucked.

 

[Queersetti]

Well, you know what? I didn't make that decision either, so don't expect me to take the blame or the guilt for that one.

Well, you certainly supported it in regard to "The swishy, effeninate types, who play into the whole gay stereotype.", who you felt should be made to "shut up".

 

[zipman]

Zipman-- *stopping midstream*

ok...do *you* have a theory about why people need to fit into both stereotypes?

Yes I do.

I think it boils down to how a person chooses to define themselves, or rather, what the defining charateristic is that they value most about themselves.

For many, both heterosexual and homosexual, it is their sexuality. For the heterosexual it is the "macho man" persona and in the homosexual community, it is the "swishy gay" persona. To the "macho man," it is the need to prove their manliness via crude behavior and sexist, almost mysoginstic behavior. It is a vain attempt to deny a negative, which is any association that they are gay.

For the "swishy gay" it seems to be more of a need to belong. In the same way that the "macho man" goes overboard trying to pretend he's not gay, the "swishy gay" wants to scream it from the rooftops and embrace characteristics that define femininity.

Both of these, IMO, are people who lack the intelligence to define themselves in a more meaningful way.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Yes I do.

I think it boils down to how a person chooses to define themselves, or rather, what the defining charateristic is that they value most about themselves.

For many, both heterosexual and homosexual, it is their sexuality. For the heterosexual it is the "macho man" persona and in the homosexual community, it is the "swishy gay" persona. To the "macho man," it is the need to prove their manliness via crude behavior and sexist, almost mysoginstic behavior. It is a vain attempt to deny a negative, which is any association that they are gay.

For the "swishy gay" it seems to be more of a need to belong. In the same way that the "macho man" goes overboard trying to pretend he's not gay, the "swishy gay" wants to scream it from the rooftops and embrace characteristics that define femininity.

Both of these, IMO, are people who lack the intelligence to define themselves in a more meaningful way.

I absolutely agree with this post.

 

[Queersetti]

Yes.

Hey, I think you might be wrong in a way. Guys who lisp are dandy in the rainbow queer world, but amazonian drag queens, a lot of guys are entertained by but don't want featured on the news clips, we definitely have our own sense of undesirables.

And as long as we try to be appealing and cute and winning to straight people who are going to be good to us if we toe the line, we're fucked.

Oh, I agree with you. Every year there is hand wringing about drag queens or ultrabutches or leathermen participating in Gay Pride events.

But they are the people who actually put their asses on the line for the rest of us.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Well, you certainly supported it in regard to "The swishy, effeninate types, who play into the whole gay stereotype.", who you felt should be made to "shut up".

Oh yeah...any negative comment is a call to build a gallows, huh?

 

[Queersetti]

Amazing.

The straights are talking about how gays act swishy in order to belong, while at the same time, the queers are talking about how the gay community is so often hostile to men who act too swishy.

 

[Queersetti]

Oh yeah...any negative comment is a call to build a gallows, huh?

I would say that calling for any group to be made to shut up is pretty definitively treating them as second class citizens.

 

[killallhippies]

Are you sure?

*ceasing to make skipper hump barbie's leg*

i'm pretty sure. and what about ken?? who does he get to play with???

 

[rosco rathbone]

Maybe if you asked a bear.

The bears I know are pretty mellow though.

I lived upstairs from 2 bears in Williamsburg. I didn't know they were bears; just two heavy (the bottom obese, bearded and girlish; the top chubby, bearded and sullenly butchish), hairy homos who were'nt shy about fisting at 2AM on a work night....Can still remember high, womanly voice screaming "NO, I can't take another finger!!", me screaming likewise out bedroom window "SHUT THE FUCK UP SOME PEOPLE HAVE TO WORK!!", my screams echoing the top's "Shut up , bitch!".

Anyway, one day I read about bears and realized that these guys always had on Chicago Bears caps and Coca COla Polar Bear tee shirts.

And that is the story of the bears. SOrry to hijack your thread Jizzo MizzoBizzo.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Unfair, wrong, bad, unfair. And totally fair at the same time. I get to slam my family, you don't. I get to call my sister a tramp, you don't.

This is very interesting. What, exactly, does one have to do to be thought of as part of the family? Self-identify as such? Have sex with members of same sex? Fantasize about it but not do it? Where is the line drawn; or is there even a line.

 

[destinie21]

As a liberal straight male, I am by nature all for people putting anything they want into any other consenting adult, so long as it is in private. On the other hand, I find myself offended by a certain segemnt of the gay population. You know the ones I mean. The 'really gay' men. The swishy, effeninate types, who play into the whole gay stereotype. Grrrr...

Can't the rest of you shut those guys up?!?

You do know that men who are effeminate are not necessarily gay right? Also since when does anyone have the "right" to eliminate people they don't like? Your problem is personal.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Re: Re: 'Gay' vs 'really gay'?

You do know that men who are effeminate are not necessarily gay right? Also since when does anyone have the "right" to eliminate people they don't like? Your problem is personal.

Well, there's eliminate, and ELIMINATE, you know? I'm not talking about building deathcamps...I'm just suggesting not inviting to them to the cool parties, the same as you would with the over-macho guy and the Bible-thumpers.

 

[Netzach]

Mr. Jizzo:

Think of themselves as such.

Not be surprised that kvetching about queens isn't going to get you a pat on the back.

Hang with us.

Maybe express interest in doing something with someone of the (same?) sex, whatever that is.

You know I'm pretty flexible on this issue too. Fuck, I know it when I see it. Simple as that.

And I get to make a couple of sweeping pronouncements of my own, don't I? Can't a girl say "bitch, shut up!" while swilling a beer on her couch nowadays?

 

[Netzach]

Now you know that our parties *are* the cool parties, JM.

 

[Netzach]

Why else would we be making over straight guys, invited to speak at every BDSM event that draws six people, and drawing out the money at every benefit party on earth?

 

[Etoile]

As for my comments about Etoile, I thought this space was her vision, if she is merely performing an administrative function as opposed to shaping the degree of tolerance and inclusive dialogue that I was crediting her for, then I do apologize to her.

Apology accepted.

 

[WriterDom]

If I were surrounded by effeminate males every day I might have cause to bitch about it. But I've had more contact with poisonous snakes. Even after living in California for three years.

It's really disappointing to see this raised by "natural doms" From my experience those in the lifestyle are more tolerant, not less.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

And I get to make a couple of sweeping pronouncements of my own, don't I? Can't a girl say "bitch, shut up!" while swilling a beer on her couch nowadays?

Well, hell, I think that was all I was doing when I started this thread...

 

[Queersetti]

Well, hell, I think that was all I was doing when I started this thread...

But you did it on our couch.

You came into a gay space and asked one segment of the gay community to stifle another segment for the comfort of straight men.

Did you think we'd find that reasonable? Funny? What did you expect?

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

But you did it on our couch.

You came into a gay space and asked one segment of the gay community to stifle another segment for the comfort of straight men.

Did you think we'd find that reasonable? Funny? What did you expect?

Well, I wasn't expecting this sort of Spanish Inquisition!

Dude, I'll kick in some cash on a new couch, what do you say?

 

[Etoile]

Well, I wasn't expecting this sort of Spanish Inquisition!

Dude, I'll kick in some cash on a new couch, what do you say?

You weren't expecting us to react like this? Wow. Even I take offense at that view of us, and I've been keeping quiet about this entire thread so far.

As for the couch, I like this one just fine.