House cats - killers?

[JMohegan]

I guess you'd shoot the dogs around lake Harriet for me then?

I keep finding mauled ducks.

Pardon me for stating the obvious, but Lake Harriet is not my property.

If asked for my vote, I'd say that duck hunting for dinner should be legal. Duck hunting for any other reason should not.

 

[Netzach]

This is a fascinating video of whales.

Food for thought, on multiple levels.

OMG. I weep.

The whole thing, the writing.

David Attenborough, come help!


I love orcas, so I'm not the right person to ask about this one. Maybe seal pups that taste a certain way make you have diarrhea an hour later and Bernard was like "oh no, I don't want to pay for this in an hour."

 

[Netzach]

Pardon me for stating the obvious, but Lake Harriet is not my property.

If asked for my vote, I'd say that duck hunting for dinner should be legal. Duck hunting for any other reason should not.

Lake Harriet is a public urban park lake, you can't go duck hunting on it any more than Central Park.

I prefer mallards to moronic people's dog-children.

 

[Netzach]

Some dogs have been bred to chase and kill. Some dogs have been bred to chase and *not* kill.

My dog and I were once visiting a neighbor whose child kept a gerbil in a plastic cage. Kid took out the gerbil to show us.... mother screamed to put it back.... startled kid dropped it..... gerbil sprinted across the floor..... dog raced over, picked it up in his mouth, brought it back, tail wagging - so proud!...... kid and mother screamed like the world just exploded..... I put out my hand beneath the dog's mouth and calmly said "drop"..... which he did. Not a mark on the gerbil. Good boy.

That's not miracle training. That's basic training, harnessing what that animal was bred to do. We do the same thing with a ball, dozens of times every day.

That's non miracle training on a dog with key word here: breeding.

If your dog was a malamute or a jack russel there's no way. Just none.

Retriever? Well, prior to the designer dog inbreeding making them unpredictable and nuts, entirely possible. He's doing his job.

 

[00Syd]

Some dogs have been bred to chase and kill. Some dogs have been bred to chase and *not* kill.

My dog and I were once visiting a neighbor whose child kept a gerbil in a plastic cage. Kid took out the gerbil to show us.... mother screamed to put it back.... startled kid dropped it..... gerbil sprinted across the floor..... dog raced over, picked it up in his mouth, brought it back, tail wagging - so proud!...... kid and mother screamed like the world just exploded..... I put out my hand beneath the dog's mouth and calmly said "drop"..... which he did. Not a mark on the gerbil. Good boy.

That's not miracle training. That's basic training, harnessing what that animal was bred to do. We do the same thing with a ball, dozens of times every day.

Sure, but the dog isn't sitting there and making a choice. Its not sitting there and going "How angry do I feel today?" "Do I need to kill this animal?" "Would it be the most beneficial for me to chase this animal, kill it, or being it to my person?"

Its doing whatever it was trained to do or whatever breeding or instinct dictates.

I just don't like when we impose human thought and emotions onto animals because they really don't apply. Again, pet-peeve of mine, but obviously not a pet-peeve that other people have since just about everyone does it.

 

[JMohegan]

Lake Harriet is a public urban park lake, you can't go duck hunting on it any more than Central Park.

I prefer mallards to moronic people's dog-children.

Oh, in that case I'd report the dog owner to the county. This is not hard.

Photograph dog with mangled duck. Approach in dog-friendly fashion, check tags for owner info. Send photo and info to park rangers, or whomever's in charge.

 

[graceanne]

Nope. Plenty of animals will kill out of sheer mean. It is often fobbed off as territory defense, but often the dead critter could have been chased off with less risk than killing it.

Well, I was gonna say something about a PBS thing on Orca Whales I saw, where they killed a seal and then played with it, but . . .

This is a fascinating video of whales.

Food for thought, on multiple levels.

JM beat me to it.

 

[Recidiva]

Yeah, that's silly to me. "A bird is just a bird but my cat is my baby." Thibbbt. Selective animal-love.

My pets and kids are MY pets and kids and they may be rotten and vile and all that, but I understand me defending my own kids (while correcting them or whatever for their rottenness and vileness if possible) and favoring them over other kids.

I selectively love animals and selectively love people.

This also means that while I may not put a moral value on the creatures in my yard and they're all not "hated" or despised, but the fire ants, even though I have deep respect for the beauty of hive function and I think they're amazing, are going to get the hell poisoned out of themselves every three months because I'm allergic and it's entirely painful to the animals and kids in my care when they're bitten. If I could negotiate and coexist, I would. I've tried all the New Age Findhorn techniques for living in peace, but they haven't worked, no matter how loving or "granting of beingness" I am. Ants don't respond to good will. Not mine anyway. I either have an inferior brand of good will or a lack of telepathic ability, but oh well. I tried.

I may grasp intellectually how my kids might be evil little whatevers and fire ants are beautiful, complicated creatures, but what we're responsible for and what we're exposed to in our own experience, does matter.

Choosing to protect and care for something may mean you need a little bit of benign blindness as defense.

I've tried loving everything equally. I've tried letting cockroaches run free on my food, having mosquitos bite me because all they want is to have babies...a Zen ahimsa period of my life. Eventually it all seemed rather silly for me to not put up some personal boundaries like "Don't make me sick as hell and I have the right to not honor everything if the roaches and mosquitos clearly don't give a shit that I just want to be left alone."

It's hard enough to set boundaries for yourself, but extending those boundaries to care for something else small, vicious and probably dumb and selfish as hell (kid or animal) makes it even more complicated.

 

[JMohegan]

OMG. I weep.

The whole thing, the writing.

David Attenborough, come help!


I love orcas, so I'm not the right person to ask about this one. Maybe seal pups that taste a certain way make you have diarrhea an hour later and Bernard was like "oh no, I don't want to pay for this in an hour."

The writing - I know. And the music! Jesus christ.

Whatever the reason for the tossing and release, it does seem to reflect a cognitive process. "It's just an animal" really doesn't seem to me to apply in so many cases, including that of whales.

 

[00Syd]

Or when someone breeds and trains (and/or tortures) a dog to be vicious and agressive and then people are like "That's just a mean dog." No, the dog's PERSON is a dickweed. It's just the same as when someone see's a hamster in a cage and says "Ooooh that is such a sad hamster." No, the person is sad. The hamster is a hamster.

 

[Netzach]

Oh, in that case I'd report the dog owner to the county. This is not hard.

Photograph dog with mangled duck. Approach in dog-friendly fashion, check tags for owner info. Send photo and info to park rangers, or whomever's in charge.

That's a little more work than sitting with the garden hose. It doesn't take a lot of detective work to imagine the dead waterfowl have something to do with the vast numbers of people walking dogs around the lake.

I see them swimming in the lake and scaring up nesting birds all the time, I've seen one get one and its owners begging it to drop it, but I didn't personally want to stick around to watch the end of that drama. Ew.

These aren't "who's dog is this" dogs, they're usually large dogs on retractable leashes, with owners who can't control them when their brain goes into dog mode.

 

[00Syd]

My pets and kids are MY pets and kids and they may be rotten and vile and all that, but I understand me defending my own kids (while correcting them or whatever for their rottenness and vileness if possible) and favoring them over other kids.

I selectively love animals and selectively love people.

This also means that while I may not put a moral value on the creatures in my yard and they're all not "hated" or despised, but the fire ants, even though I have deep respect for the beauty of hive function and I think they're amazing, are going to get the hell poisoned out of themselves every three months because I'm allergic and it's entirely painful to the animals and kids in my care when they're bitten. If I could negotiate and coexist, I would. I've tried all the New Age Findhorn techniques for living in peace, but they haven't worked, no matter how loving or "granting of beingness" I am. Ants don't respond to good will. Not mine anyway. I either have an inferior brand of good will or a lack of telepathic ability, but oh well. I tried.

I may grasp intellectually how my kids might be evil little whatevers and fire ants are beautiful, complicated creatures, but what we're responsible for and what we're exposed to in our own experience, does matter.

Choosing to protect and care for something may mean you need a little bit of benign blindness as defense.

I've tried loving everything equally. I've tried letting cockroaches run free on my food, having mosquitos bite me because all they want is to have babies...a Zen ahimsa period of my life. Eventually it all seemed rather silly for me to not put up some personal boundaries like "Don't make me sick as hell and I have the right to not honor everything if the roaches and mosquitos clearly don't give a shit that I just want to be left alone."

It's hard enough to set boundaries for yourself, but extending those boundaries to care for something else small, vicious and probably dumb and selfish as hell (kid or animal) makes it even more complicated.

Honestly, I couldn't care less whether you do or don't swat mosquitoes or poison ants. I'm really not much of a fan of either insect.

My main annoyance is the weird justifications that animal-people have and their insistence on anthropomorphizing animals.

 

[Netzach]

Yeah, that's silly to me. "A bird is just a bird but my cat is my baby." Thibbbt. Selective animal-love.

Damn straight.

My cat is my baby, and if I were in Shanghai and being served kitten, I can live with that contradiction and make like a Roman in Rome, rather than crusade against the barbarity. I can resist the urge to fucking beat senseless the people who let the unspayed little female kitten run around the neighborhood underfed and pathetic and sleeping in our car hood that sits in the driveway more. I accept that she's not to them what my cat is to me. If they are fine letting her encounter the incensed bird fan who'll lob rocks at her or just some antisocial kid, I can't *do* anything about that.

I don't know how people incapable of compartments and contradictions can get out of bed in the AM and not shoot themselves.

 

[graceanne]

My pets and kids are MY pets and kids and they may be rotten and vile and all that, but I understand me defending my own kids (while correcting them or whatever for their rottenness and vileness if possible) and favoring them over other kids.

I selectively love animals and selectively love people.

This also means that while I may not put a moral value on the creatures in my yard and they're all not "hated" or despised, but the fire ants, even though I have deep respect for the beauty of hive function and I think they're amazing, are going to get the hell poisoned out of themselves every three months because I'm allergic and it's entirely painful to the animals and kids in my care when they're bitten. If I could negotiate and coexist, I would. I've tried all the New Age Findhorn techniques for living in peace, but they haven't worked, no matter how loving or "granting of beingness" I am. Ants don't respond to good will. Not mine anyway. I either have an inferior brand of good will or a lack of telepathic ability, but oh well. I tried.

I may grasp intellectually how my kids might be evil little whatevers and fire ants are beautiful, complicated creatures, but what we're responsible for and what we're exposed to in our own experience, does matter.

Choosing to protect and care for something may mean you need a little bit of benign blindness as defense.

I've tried loving everything equally. I've tried letting cockroaches run free on my food, having mosquitos bite me because all they want is to have babies...a Zen ahimsa period of my life. Eventually it all seemed rather silly for me to not put up some personal boundaries like "Don't make me sick as hell and I have the right to not honor everything if the roaches and mosquitos clearly don't give a shit that I just want to be left alone."

It's hard enough to set boundaries for yourself, but extending those boundaries to care for something else small, vicious and probably dumb and selfish as hell (kid or animal) makes it even more complicated.

Pretty much. You hear, on the news and stuff, about animal rights and animal cruelty. And from the same groups of people you hear talk of killing bugs.

Why are we only required to be nice to the cute animals? I mean, they're just as necessary to the echo system. They were there first. I, personally, don't kill a bug unless it bites me. I put any that I find outside. I also put baking soda on any entry ways to KEEP them outside.

I don't know how many of you remember Canadian Cutie, but I remember her telling me once that she briefly joined PETA, then quit because they only want to save the cute animals.

That's a little more work than sitting with the garden hose. It doesn't take a lot of detective work to imagine the dead waterfowl have something to do with the vast numbers of people walking dogs around the lake.

I see them swimming in the lake and scaring up nesting birds all the time, I've seen one get one and its owners begging it to drop it, but I didn't personally want to stick around to watch the end of that drama. Ew.

These aren't "who's dog is this" dogs, they're usually large dogs on retractable leashes, with owners who can't control them when their brain goes into dog mode.

I think their should be a law for owners having to either take their kids to obedience classes or showing their ability to train their animals. There are too many large animals with no training, and then when something bad happens everyone is like 'oh no! what happened?'

 

[Recidiva]

Honestly, I couldn't care less whether you do or don't swat mosquitoes or poison ants. I'm really not much of a fan of either insect.

My main annoyance is the weird justifications that animal-people have and their insistence on anthropomorphizing animals.

But for me, mosquitos or ants are also living creatures that deserve respect in the same way a kitten does. There's no "real" or inherent or universal value that makes a cat more valuable than a mosquito. But people set personal priorities. Some prize cute. Some prize compatibility. Some prize not getting malaria.

I'm not really disagreeing with you, but extending the metaphor that loving something or caring for something doesn't always have to do with anthropomorphizing. It has to do with setting priorities. It may express itself as anthropomorphizing, but I think the basic essence of that behavior comes from setting priorities.

I name my car. I name every car, that doesn't mean my car is owned because I love it more than other cars. I could afford it and I have some need to have a car. The anthropomorphizing is entirely lateral to that. It's not the cause of me owning a car. It's a silly personality quirk I have that is entirely separate from my real attitudes.

 

[JMohegan]

Or when someone breeds and trains (and/or tortures) a dog to be vicious and agressive and then people are like "That's just a mean dog." No, the dog's PERSON is a dickweed. It's just the same as when someone see's a hamster in a cage and says "Ooooh that is such a sad hamster." No, the person is sad. The hamster is a hamster.

Animals have emotions. That's not pet-owner fantasy, that's scientific fact.

There is a spectrum of nervous system complexity, of course. But fear, boredom, stress, anxiety are all documented animal behaviors.

Have you ever heard of Temple Grandin? Here is a brief article of hers, a summary of the perspective I'm talking about.

 

[JMohegan]

But for me, mosquitos or ants are also living creatures that deserve respect in the same way a kitten does. There's no "real" or inherent or universal value that makes a cat more valuable than a mosquito. But people set personal priorities. Some prize cute. Some prize compatibility. Some prize not getting malaria.

Haha - yes. This is it, in a nutshell.

 

[JMohegan]

That's a little more work than sitting with the garden hose. It doesn't take a lot of detective work to imagine the dead waterfowl have something to do with the vast numbers of people walking dogs around the lake.

I see them swimming in the lake and scaring up nesting birds all the time, I've seen one get one and its owners begging it to drop it, but I didn't personally want to stick around to watch the end of that drama. Ew.

These aren't "who's dog is this" dogs, they're usually large dogs on retractable leashes, with owners who can't control them when their brain goes into dog mode.

Those are poorly trained dogs, and fucking irresponsible owners.

If the owner can't control the dog around ducks, then the owner shouldn't walk the dog around ducks.

Since that statement, which seems so obvious to me, is apparently not so obvious to your neighbors, my strong suggestion would be to petition the county to put sturdy, tall fencing aroung the nesting area.

I realize this is more work than a garden hose, but I can't think of what else to suggest. Many people are fucking irresponsible pet owners, and counteracting irresponsible pet owners frequently takes work.

 

[Recidiva]

Pretty much. You hear, on the news and stuff, about animal rights and animal cruelty. And from the same groups of people you hear talk of killing bugs.

Why are we only required to be nice to the cute animals? I mean, they're just as necessary to the echo system. They were there first. I, personally, don't kill a bug unless it bites me. I put any that I find outside. I also put baking soda on any entry ways to KEEP them outside.

I don't know how many of you remember Canadian Cutie, but I remember her telling me once that she briefly joined PETA, then quit because they only want to save the cute animals.

I believe in respect for things. I don't consider myself superior inherently in any way to mosquitos or the Ebola virus or shale or a dead leaf. It's all part of something, and probably represents some process of nature I couldn't comprehend or reproduce.

What I do have is a nervous system that has affinities with some of it and aversion to some of it.

I'd love to be a rock. No moral choices, no nervous system, everything's cool.

But I'm not, I'm human. I have to make some value choices because I have a brain and a nervous system and not doing so makes me not human or rock, but pretty much unresponsive vegetable.

I'm trying to honor the nature of being a human to the best of my ability without feeling horrible just because I exist and I'm forced to compete for resources. But it appears that's the name of the game here.

If I were a shark, I'd probably eat fish and not stress about horrible a creature I was. I have tried to determine my own nature and then honor that to my ability. It doesn't make me superior to or a judge of other creatures or their natures.

But I don't like people taking dogs and trying to make them vegetarian either. I consider that to be abuse.

You may be lucky or unlucky in your personal nature and other creatures may not like you, may try to kill you or eat you or lock you up. Seems that's the rules of the place. Turns out in my research, seems humans are aggressive omnivores who do weird ritual stuff that means weird things on occasion. I'm doing my best to tone down the aggression and be a responsible omnivore. I try not to cause suffering or be greedy or consume in any way that makes me seem symbolically more privileged or powerful (one of those weird human rituals) than other forms of life.

There's a difference between leaving a responsible footprint, and being asked to leave no footprint at all.

 

[graceanne]

There's a difference between leaving a responsible footprint, and being asked to leave no footprint at all.

That's my favorite part of all that you said.

Beyond that, I was agreeing with you. I'm an omnivore - I eat meat. I might go vegetarian if it wouldn't end with me getting divorced - I'm married to a redneck.

I also eat cheap meat. I'm feeding two familys (sometimes three) here - I can't afford nice meat. Plus I'm really struggling to FIND nice meat. But that's another grr of my day.

 

[00Syd]

I don't know how many of you remember Canadian Cutie, but I remember her telling me once that she briefly joined PETA, then quit because they only want to save the cute animals.

Naw, they want to save all animals, even if it means turning ugly ones into cute ones. Like fish. Of course people won't eat fish if they're called sea kittens and we imagine them having little cat ears and whiskers.

 

[intothewoods]

<snip>The moms I see at Whole Foods aren't obsessing over cramped cow conditions; they're worried about their own kids.

</snip>

hijack - I went into a WF recently after not going in for almost a year and, man, just for a sec, I thought, I wish I were rich and didn't give a shit about buying produce trucked in from Chile or California or whatever. I mean, I'm not normally a sucker for marketing and store layout and all that, but that place totally fucking has my number. If I died and went to heaven and the only grocery store was WF, I would be just pleased as punch (organic cane sugar sweeted fruit punch, that is).

Getting zapped with a small, smooth stone doesn't kill them.

But even if it did, "worse" depends on where you're sitting. I understand why those who treasure cats would consider a cat's life to be more valuable than the life of the bird or bunny it kills, but not everyone sees it that way.

Yeah, that's silly to me. "A bird is just a bird but my cat is my baby." Thibbbt. Selective animal-love.

Ha - yeah - remember that Simpson's where the dolphins are all terrible killers or something?

Some dogs have been bred to chase and kill. Some dogs have been bred to chase and *not* kill.

My dog and I were once visiting a neighbor whose child kept a gerbil in a plastic cage. Kid took out the gerbil to show us.... mother screamed to put it back.... startled kid dropped it..... gerbil sprinted across the floor..... dog raced over, picked it up in his mouth, brought it back, tail wagging - so proud!...... kid and mother screamed like the world just exploded..... I put out my hand beneath the dog's mouth and calmly said "drop"..... which he did. Not a mark on the gerbil. Good boy.

That's not miracle training. That's basic training, harnessing what that animal was bred to do. We do the same thing with a ball, dozens of times every day.

Awwww, good dog! I am still getting to know dogs and am totally amazed by them. I'm also still amazed by the tales here of crazed hunter cats. Mine - and he did used to go outdoors - would just not bother himself with hunting something. Hunt? He could be sleeping!

 

[Recidiva]

That's my favorite part of all that you said.

Beyond that, I was agreeing with you. I'm an omnivore - I eat meat. I might go vegetarian if it wouldn't end with me getting divorced - I'm married to a redneck.

I also eat cheap meat. I'm feeding two familys (sometimes three) here - I can't afford nice meat. Plus I'm really struggling to FIND nice meat. But that's another grr of my day.

Yeah, my daughter yesterday was shopping with me and said "Ugh, artificial vanilla, who would want to buy that?"

I explained I wouldn't, but there are lots for whom food is not their first priority, and good reasons why it isn't. I'm lucky and I know it. I have more options because I've made food a priority in my life. I'm privileged enough to afford organic or pure or ethical or whatever I have the spare time, education and option to do so allows. With that spare money, I consider it then a responsibility to make at least some effort to make the world a better place and have something yummy. But I've lived on cheap baloney sandwiches on white bread and Kool-Aid myself when I couldn't give the slightest damn about how healthy it was or how much it cost, I just wanted the cheapest, fastest thing because I had other things on my mind than food.

I am not going to condemn someone who doesn't give a damn enough about fake vanilla or cheap meat because there are worse things in life to worry about.

I can't watch "Whale Wars" because although I do value the lives of whales, I also value the lives of Japanese fishermen.

 

[graceanne]

Yeah, my daughter yesterday was shopping with me and said "Ugh, artificial vanilla, who would want to buy that?"

I explained I wouldn't, but there are lots for whom food is not their first priority, and good reasons why it isn't. I'm lucky and I know it. I have more options because I've made food a priority in my life. I'm privileged enough to afford organic or pure or ethical or whatever I have the spare time, education and option to do so allows. With that spare money, I consider it then a responsibility to make at least some effort to make the world a better place and have something yummy. But I've lived on cheap baloney sandwiches on white bread and Kool-Aid myself when I couldn't give the slightest damn about how healthy it was or how much it cost, I just wanted the cheapest, fastest thing because I had other things on my mind than food.

I am not going to condemn someone who doesn't give a damn enough about fake vanilla or cheap meat because there are worse things in life to worry about.

I've never had real vanilla. I don't even know if there's a difference in taste. lol

I can't watch "Whale Wars" because although I do value the lives of whales, I also value the lives of Japanese fishermen.

Exactly. Or similar things. My husband hunts, quite honestly. We have an agreement - I don't have to see it while it looks like a deer/elk.

Heck, my mom can't eat crab if she's cooked it herself - totally ruins it for her. lol I won't eat crab - it's just a giant sea bug. Ew.

 

[intothewoods]

Yeah, my daughter yesterday was shopping with me and said "Ugh, artificial vanilla, who would want to buy that?"

I explained I wouldn't, but there are lots for whom food is not their first priority, and good reasons why it isn't. I'm lucky and I know it. I have more options because I've made food a priority in my life. I'm privileged enough to afford organic or pure or ethical or whatever I have the spare time, education and option to do so allows. With that spare money, I consider it then a responsibility to make at least some effort to make the world a better place and have something yummy. But I've lived on cheap baloney sandwiches on white bread and Kool-Aid myself when I couldn't give the slightest damn about how healthy it was or how much it cost, I just wanted the cheapest, fastest thing because I had other things on my mind than food.

I am not going to condemn someone who doesn't give a damn enough about fake vanilla or cheap meat because there are worse things in life to worry about.

I can't watch "Whale Wars" because although I do value the lives of whales, I also value the lives of Japanese fishermen.

Totally agreed.

That's my favorite part of all that you said.

Beyond that, I was agreeing with you. I'm an omnivore - I eat meat. I might go vegetarian if it wouldn't end with me getting divorced - I'm married to a redneck.

I also eat cheap meat. I'm feeding two familys (sometimes three) here - I can't afford nice meat. Plus I'm really struggling to FIND nice meat. But that's another grr of my day.

I know the part in bold well! Though I've been amazed with what I can sneak by recently. Must have been all of those fabulous blow jobs.

Btw - I'm just yanking WD's chain because he's always bitching about what a fatfest we all are.