House cats - killers?

[Recidiva]

Squirrel is the LEAST of the things some folks eat. *Shudder*

Wild turkey is the shiznit, though.

Brunswick stew is made with squirrel. I'm pretty sure I've had some.

I also had an uncle who could prepare raccoon several ways and had a big raccoon feast once a year for family.

Wild pheasant is good and hunters would come to our land and then give us one or two as tithe when they got caught, what with all the "NO TRESPASSING" signs up.

I just went to Alaska and reindeer sausage is yummy. So were the caribou wontons.

 

[00Syd]

I just went to Alaska and reindeer sausage is yummy. So were the caribou wontons.

I've had raindeer sausage before, and if I recall correctly, it was indeed yummy. I've also had ostrich sausage which was really very tasty.

 

[Netzach]

I don't think there's any question that the attitude of humans toward explicit animal torture as human entertainment has shifted a bit. But even though we no longer celebrate dogs killing bears, the day-to-day obscenity of factory farm misery doesn't seem to bother most - perhaps because we can pretend not to see it.

It's not in our face and --- chicken, 2.99 a pound! Hey!

I do think it's fair to ask why any shift in attitudes has occurred. In addressing this question, I really don't see zoos and aquariums as helping. I see them as contributing to the problem, because they are largely enjoyed for entertainment and usually do not provide information impugning captivity itself.

How many tiger exhibits have plaques or rangers on hand to explain why the animal is pacing?

Check out all this educational info on dolphins and beluga whales. Presumably, similar information is available at the park. Is that sufficient cover for the evil that is Sea World? I really don't think so.

Hey, I think you can read a lot of that stuff in a book and go marvel at the dead stuffed beluga whale from 1925 just fine.

But I will also say that I've seen Bronx Zoo didactics, like "this doohickey is in the display because Bert the Buffalo was pacing too much, so we increased his enrichment activities." It's not exactly "don't come here, we make animals psycho" but it acknowledges that this isn't a garden of eden with only happy campers and there's a constant effort to do things better.

It's a good question, where the rising pressure to do better comes from. Internally, because you hire people who I'm assuming don't hate animals? Externally?

Sea World is like an aquatic prison circus with a veneer of justification.

I'm just saying some institutions suck less than others.

 

[Recidiva]

I don't think there's any question that the attitude of humans toward explicit animal torture as human entertainment has shifted a bit. But even though we no longer celebrate dogs killing bears, the day-to-day obscenity of factory farm misery doesn't seem to bother most - perhaps because we can pretend not to see it.

It's not in our face and --- chicken, 2.99 a pound! Hey!

Hey, I think you can read a lot of that stuff in a book and go marvel at the dead stuffed beluga whale from 1925 just fine.

But I will also say that I've seen Bronx Zoo didactics, like "this doohickey is in the display because Bert the Buffalo was pacing too much, so we increased his enrichment activities." It's not exactly "don't come here, we make animals psycho."

Sea World is like an aquatic prison circus with a veneer of justification.

I'm just saying some institutions suck less than others.

I do try to be sensitive and responsible. I've tried vegan and unfortunately it did not work for me as a health or a happiness issue.

I do however try to buy from ethical owners, organic where possible, not be overtly wasteful, use everything I can and compost or dispose of ethically what I can't. I don't actually consider myself the top of the food chain, as I think I'm bacteria and virus food.

I think I like Sea World, maybe the different ones vary. I do know when I went to the San Diego Zoo years ago I had an overall very negative impression if only because they had visiting Pandas from China and the Pandas were made to perform and I was infurated.

But I'm not sure about the Sea World issue here in Orlando. I've been a few times (we get free tickets once a year as part of my husband's Christmas bonus) and I haven't gotten the huge oogies.

I really appreciate their rescue operations for local injured manatees and a lot of the trained animals seem...happy. They certainly have a big drive toward local rescue and education and that was a component missing in most of my other zoo trips. Enough so that I am not refusing to go back, which is the outcome of almost every other time I'm invited to a zoo.

Maybe it's because I focus on the aquatic mammals like dolphins, manatees and orcas that appear to be curious and cognizant. It's always spotless and not what I'd consider sad, cramped or abused.

I consider zoos to be educational for kids. I did a ton of camping and traveling and so zoos aren't my thing. I'm pretty content to watch wildlife on TV or through binoculars. I've also had my run ins with bears and such while camping and traveling, so there's the knowledge that humans encroach on animals and animals encroach on humans and there has to be some sort of equilibrium and respect where humans don't hunt (instead reloacate) or gawk or mistreat, but animals aren't turned into mangy lazy scavengers or worse, learn to hunt humans.

I'd prefer that zoos were populated with rescued animals, but I know that's unrealistic.

I don't think it's realistic to expect zoos to not showcase exotic animals, any more than I am expected to be a happy vegan.

I'd rather both were true though, if I had my ethical druthers.

 

[WriterDom]

Could we feed almost 7 billion people without factory farming? Sure, I'd like my chicken to have a hotel room with satellite TV and AC but is it really practical?

 

[WriterDom]

Cats might kill for food but a dog is about the only animal I know that kills out of meaness.

 

[Recidiva]

Cats might kill for food but a dog is about the only animal I know that kills out of meaness.

That's not my experience. I think cats enjoy torture. Dogs just chase anything that runs and rip it to bits if they can. And a cat will kill anything anywhere, a dog is aware of territory and whether or not it's theirs.

Humans kill out of meanness. But they also kill out of mercy and all those other weird things humans do.

 

[Recidiva]

Could we feed almost 7 billion people without factory farming? Sure, I'd like my chicken to have a hotel room with satellite TV and AC but is it really practical?

Again in the world there's free will. I guess I choose to vote with my dollars and try not to buy something that I am aware has practices that are cruel out of laziness and cutting corners.

Animals fed badly, treated badly and caused to suffer unnecessarily, I'm sure they don't care if the end consumer (me) gets poisoned, sick from additives and suffers unnecessarily.

But truth, Kobe and Wagyu beef are expensive.

 

[Netzach]

Grass fed flatiron 12.99 a pound

mystery flatiron
9.99 a pound. Near me anyway.

You can get the non chicken in a box legs or thighs for like 4.99 for a large ass pack.

I know some people can't pinch that, but a whole lot more can than think they can't.

I'm content to have either once in a while and pay a mere couple more bucks for a smaller piece if it's not going to kill me.

The fact that it's not moocow in a box is a mere byproduct of plus.

 

[Netzach]

Could we feed almost 7 billion people without factory farming? Sure, I'd like my chicken to have a hotel room with satellite TV and AC but is it really practical?

I dunno, in 1970 or so it probably did scratch around and wasn't fed chicken droppings with dead chick mashed in. We always got kosher chickens, which were white in appearance, not the weird Purdue fluorescent yellow.

Something has gone progressively wrong.

 

[intothewoods]

Could we feed almost 7 billion people without factory farming? Sure, I'd like my chicken to have a hotel room with satellite TV and AC but is it really practical?

Yes. You're the one who always says we're too fat. We don't need to eat like we do.

 

[00Syd]

Cats might kill for food but a dog is about the only animal I know that kills out of meaness.

"Mean" is a human personality trait. I don't think dogs can me "mean" so much as aggressive, protective, vicious, and wild.

Putting human emotions and personality traits onto animals is a pet-peeve of mine.

 

[Homburg]

I do think it's fair to ask why any shift in attitudes has occurred. In addressing this question, I really don't see zoos and aquariums as helping. I see them as contributing to the problem, because they are largely enjoyed for entertainment and usually do not provide information impugning captivity itself.

Aside from Netz' example of a zoo that talks about how it helps to alleviate pacing, my local that talks about the same sort of thing, and then offers information on how the people attending can get involved in the animals' welfare outside the facility, places to learn more, charities, etc. They are literally all about education, top to bottom.

How many people go to the zoo, see that beautiful creature, and walk away with a sense that something should be done to help? If the answer is not "zero", the facility is helping.

And every aquarium I've been to in the last five years has had a serious focus on both education and environmental protection. It is pretty much de riguer at the places I have gone to.

Check out all this educational info on dolphins and beluga whales. Presumably, similar information is available at the park. Is that sufficient cover for the evil that is Sea World? I really don't think so.

Me neither. But I wouldn't describe Seaworld as an educational facility, or even a zoo. It's a theme park, and is certainly how its' parent company treats it. Well, how they treated it, assuming they're still the parent company.

--

Could we feed almost 7 billion people without factory farming? Sure, I'd like my chicken to have a hotel room with satellite TV and AC but is it really practical?

Fuck that. Chickens are obsessive channel surfers. I hate that shit.

Cats might kill for food but a dog is about the only animal I know that kills out of meaness.

Nope. Plenty of animals will kill out of sheer mean. It is often fobbed off as territory defense, but often the dead critter could have been chased off with less risk than killing it.

 

[Homburg]

The only reason to worry would be the existence of a god who is just.

I'd say you're safe on this score.

Throwing rocks at kitties makes the Baby Jesus cry.

 

[00Syd]

Nope. Plenty of animals will kill out of sheer mean. It is often fobbed off as territory defense, but often the dead critter could have been chased off with less risk than killing it.

Yeah, maybe so, but let's keep in mind that thinking about stuff like "I wonder whether or not I really NEED to kill this animal that's invaded my territory" is a pretty human thought. I have some serious doubts as to whether animals, dogs or otherwise, really consider the risk levels associated with chasing the vermin out of its territory or killing it. Its an animal.

 

[00Syd]

Throwing rocks at kitties makes the Baby Jesus cry.

Or just kills kittens, which is worse than making a possibly non-existent person cry IMO

 

[Netzach]

Aside from Netz' example of a zoo that talks about how it helps to alleviate pacing, my local that talks about the same sort of thing, and then offers information on how the people attending can get involved in the animals' welfare outside the facility, places to learn more, charities, etc. They are literally all about education, top to bottom.

How many people go to the zoo, see that beautiful creature, and walk away with a sense that something should be done to help? If the answer is not "zero", the facility is helping.

And every aquarium I've been to in the last five years has had a serious focus on both education and environmental protection. It is pretty much de riguer at the places I have gone to.



Me neither. But I wouldn't describe Seaworld as an educational facility, or even a zoo. It's a theme park, and is certainly how its' parent company treats it. Well, how they treated it, assuming they're still the parent company.

--



Fuck that. Chickens are obsessive channel surfers. I hate that shit.



Nope. Plenty of animals will kill out of sheer mean. It is often fobbed off as territory defense, but often the dead critter could have been chased off with less risk than killing it.

I'm trying to think what. The only animal killings that seem like murderous creepy aggro to me are - big shocker, primates very close to us.

Most of what I've seen from my netflix watching perch are things that kill with glee and play in the mix - fur seals eating penguins are basically cat of the sea/mouse of the sea.

I find our anthro tendencies are really weird. Fur seal pup awwwwwww

fur seal eating penguin cruelty! killer!

How does awwwwwwww get adequate mother's milk? Milk fairies?

 

[Netzach]

Yeah, maybe so, but let's keep in mind that thinking about stuff like "I wonder whether or not I really NEED to kill this animal that's invaded my territory" is a pretty human thought. I have some serious doubts as to whether animals, dogs or otherwise, really consider the risk levels associated with chasing the vermin out of its territory or killing it. Its an animal.

You mean that anteaters don't go off actuarial tables?

 

[00Syd]

You mean that anteaters don't go off actuarial tables?

Shocking, I know.

 

[JMohegan]

Hey, I think you can read a lot of that stuff in a book and go marvel at the dead stuffed beluga whale from 1925 just fine.

But I will also say that I've seen Bronx Zoo didactics, like "this doohickey is in the display because Bert the Buffalo was pacing too much, so we increased his enrichment activities." It's not exactly "don't come here, we make animals psycho" but it acknowledges that this isn't a garden of eden with only happy campers and there's a constant effort to do things better.

It's a good question, where the rising pressure to do better comes from. Internally, because you hire people who I'm assuming don't hate animals? Externally?

Sea World is like an aquatic prison circus with a veneer of justification.

I'm just saying some institutions suck less than others.

Some suck a lot less than others, that's true.

I think the pressure to do better comes from three sources. The first is the general Enlightenment, post-Enlightenment progression of Western civilization. The second is increased knowledge of animal needs and psychology, through research. The third is human self-interest.

Factory farming isn't just bad for the animals. [WD - check out the effects of antibiotics and hormones and whatnot. You may decide that the food's not so "cheap."] The moms I see at Whole Foods aren't obsessing over cramped cow conditions; they're worried about their own kids.

Bird populations decline, and bird lovers are moved to create groups like this one.

Chesapeake Bay crab populations decline, and crab lovers cut back on the use of lawn fertilizer.

And so on. I'd say that education and self-interest are driving the trend.

 

[JMohegan]

Or just kills kittens, which is worse than making a possibly non-existent person cry IMO

Getting zapped with a small, smooth stone doesn't kill them.

But even if it did, "worse" depends on where you're sitting. I understand why those who treasure cats would consider a cat's life to be more valuable than the life of the bird or bunny it kills, but not everyone sees it that way.

 

[JMohegan]

I'm trying to think what. The only animal killings that seem like murderous creepy aggro to me are - big shocker, primates very close to us.

Most of what I've seen from my netflix watching perch are things that kill with glee and play in the mix - fur seals eating penguins are basically cat of the sea/mouse of the sea.

I find our anthro tendencies are really weird. Fur seal pup awwwwwww

fur seal eating penguin cruelty! killer!

How does awwwwwwww get adequate mother's milk? Milk fairies?

This is a fascinating video of whales.

Food for thought, on multiple levels.

 

[00Syd]

Getting zapped with a small, smooth stone doesn't kill them.

But even if it did, "worse" depends on where you're sitting. I understand why those who treasure cats would consider a cat's life to be more valuable than the life of the bird or bunny it kills, but not everyone sees it that way.

Yeah, that's silly to me. "A bird is just a bird but my cat is my baby." Thibbbt. Selective animal-love.

 

[Netzach]

Getting zapped with a small, smooth stone doesn't kill them.

But even if it did, "worse" depends on where you're sitting. I understand why those who treasure cats would consider a cat's life to be more valuable than the life of the bird or bunny it kills, but not everyone sees it that way.

I guess you'd shoot the dogs around lake Harriet for me then?

I keep finding mauled ducks.

 

[JMohegan]

Yeah, maybe so, but let's keep in mind that thinking about stuff like "I wonder whether or not I really NEED to kill this animal that's invaded my territory" is a pretty human thought. I have some serious doubts as to whether animals, dogs or otherwise, really consider the risk levels associated with chasing the vermin out of its territory or killing it. Its an animal.

Some dogs have been bred to chase and kill. Some dogs have been bred to chase and *not* kill.

My dog and I were once visiting a neighbor whose child kept a gerbil in a plastic cage. Kid took out the gerbil to show us.... mother screamed to put it back.... startled kid dropped it..... gerbil sprinted across the floor..... dog raced over, picked it up in his mouth, brought it back, tail wagging - so proud!...... kid and mother screamed like the world just exploded..... I put out my hand beneath the dog's mouth and calmly said "drop"..... which he did. Not a mark on the gerbil. Good boy.

That's not miracle training. That's basic training, harnessing what that animal was bred to do. We do the same thing with a ball, dozens of times every day.