How did you become a Feminist?

[oggbashan]

What I find is some women (some feminists) are now telling other women how they should live their life, how to raise their children, whether to be a stay at home mum or work, if they should like sex or not, if they are right to dress sexy and wear make-up or not, if it is right to marry or not and if they do whether they are right to take their husband's name or keep their own. It is not feminism in essence at all and I find it offensive to say the least when another woman tries to tell me how I should model my choices in life based on what she sees as the right way. It is just exchanging patriarchial rule for matriarchial judgement.

Catalina

It is not just some women (some feminists).

Look at magazines aimed at women and girls. The magazines for men and boys are not so didactic.

What man would buy a magazine telling him that "Black is the new black" or "The fifties look is back"?

The Bridal magazines are the worst. Apart from suggesting the ultimate in consumerism they advise how to buy for 'your kitchen' and that appearance is everything. I don't know of any magazines for intending Bridegrooms. Perhaps there should be - "Don't drop your clothes on the floor"; "Don't leave the toilet seat up"; "Learn to cook so you can prepare at least half the family's meals" etc. Such advice might be in the Bridal magazines but do the Grooms read them?

Og

 

[catalina_francisco]

It is not just some women (some feminists).

Look at magazines aimed at women and girls. The magazines for men and boys are not so didactic.

What man would buy a magazine telling him that "Black is the new black" or "The fifties look is back"?

The Bridal magazines are the worst. Apart from suggesting the ultimate in consumerism they advise how to buy for 'your kitchen' and that appearance is everything. I don't know of any magazines for intending Bridegrooms. Perhaps there should be - "Don't drop your clothes on the floor"; "Don't leave the toilet seat up"; "Learn to cook so you can prepare at least half the family's meals" etc. Such advice might be in the Bridal magazines but do the Grooms read them?

Og

LOL, true..maybe you have hit on a new marketing gap that needs filling!!

Catalina

 

[RenzaJones]

It is not just some women (some feminists).

Look at magazines aimed at women and girls. The magazines for men and boys are not so didactic.

What man would buy a magazine telling him that "Black is the new black" or "The fifties look is back"?

The Bridal magazines are the worst. Apart from suggesting the ultimate in consumerism they advise how to buy for 'your kitchen' and that appearance is everything. I don't know of any magazines for intending Bridegrooms. Perhaps there should be - "Don't drop your clothes on the floor"; "Don't leave the toilet seat up"; "Learn to cook so you can prepare at least half the family's meals" etc. Such advice might be in the Bridal magazines but do the Grooms read them?

Og

The question is would men buy the magazines for themselves or would their girlfriend/wife/fuckbuddy purchase them and try and foist the goods on the guy

 

[oggbashan]

The question is would men buy the magazines for themselves or would their girlfriend/wife/fuckbuddy purchase them and try and foist the goods on the guy

I don't think there is a market even if the women were to buy them.

Og

 

[sweetnpetite]

About the names: Dutch law was changed recently so kids can have the name of the mother or the father. It's become a choice, no matter if you're married or not. (If the father acknowledges the child of course.) I think that is a step in the right direction.

In the US, you can give your baby any last name that you want- that's right, any. My kids could have the last name of Smith if that was what I wanted

 

[cloudy]

I can't say that a book, or anything along those lines, made me a feminist.

My father strongly believed that I could do, or be, anything I wanted to. Being female had nothing to do with it.

My grandmother was Cherokee, and they have a very strong, matrilineal culture. Women aren't less, or better, just different than men, and as such, are valued just as much.

Both of them had a profound influence on me, and both raised me to believe as they did.

Just my two cents.

 

[Black Tulip]

In the US, you can give your baby any last name that you want- that's right, any. My kids could have the last name of Smith if that was what I wanted

SnP,

I didn't know that. Um, maybe a silly question. But how do you keep tabs on a family tree, you know, lineage stuff and all that?

I know we weren't allowed to see our family tree when we were kids, because, well, some kids were bastards in the legal sense. We weren't supposed to find that out.

 

[minsue]

Like many here, I don't know that there was a seminal point in time where I became a feminist or even became aware that I was one. I was raised with three brothers. Pretty much it was root hog or die

-Colly

Finally going back to read through this thread and I must threadjack briefly to say how much it made me grin to see the phrase "root hog or die"

I've never known anyone to use that phrase other than my grandfather, my mother (who got it from him), and myself (who got it from her). I'm disturbingly giddy seeing it here.

 

[minsue]

I find it disturbing that the word "feminist" has come to have such negative connotations. I just don't get it. I've known far too many women who will vehemently deny being feminist and yet expect to not only have the right to work, but expect that they should be paid the same amount as men for the same job. I always wonder how in the hell they think that right came about? And when in the hell are women going to get equal pay for equal work?!?!? That's a whole other rant, though.

I don't know who to credit, or blame, for my feminist ideology. I'd love to credit my father for repeating to me constantly as a child that "don't ever let anyone tell you that you can't do something just because you're a girl", but he also told me I couldn't go out after dark when my brother could at that age because I'm a girl etc. I also never had to mow the lawn & my brother never had to mop the floors.

It's the same with prejudice. They taught me that everyone is equal even though they obviously don't believe it themselves. So hell, I don't know why the words stuck when the actions didn't. Maybe because I've always been stubborn.

 

[KarenAM]

I find it disturbing that the word "feminist" has come to have such negative connotations. I just don't get it. I've known far too many women who will vehemently deny being feminist and yet expect to not only have the right to work, but expect that they should be paid the same amount as men for the same job. I always wonder how in the hell they think that right came about?

I think "feminist" has taken on its negative connotations because, as with all movements, it is the most vocal members who get the most attention, and who often come to define the movement. In the case of feminism, this vocal minority were the Marxist radicals who didn't want to solve the social problem of discrimination based on gender, but who wanted revenge and a war on men. They succeeded in defining "feminism" as themselves, but they misjudged their own gender. Women have been mistreated for a very long time, and most of us have pretty sensitive bullshit meters. Most women know when they're being patronized and oppressed, and are no more willing to let N.O.W. tell them what to think and do than Promise Keepers.

As a result, the radicals have inherited the term "feminism" but have lost any claim to the principles it once espoused: equality and freedom. I for one am happy to see both women and men embrace and fight for the idea of equal pay for equal work while in the same breath refusing to be called feminists. It shows that they're not willing to let themselves be led around by a bunch of hate-filled totalitarian wannabes.

Equality hasn't been achieved yet. It won't be achieved until both women and men decide they like each other enough to make it happen, and I don't see radical feminists working very hard on this.

 

[minsue]

I think "feminist" has taken on its negative connotations because, as with all movements, it is the most vocal members who get the most attention, and who often come to define the movement. In the case of feminism, this vocal minority were the Marxist radicals who didn't want to solve the social problem of discrimination based on gender, but who wanted revenge and a war on men. They succeeded in defining "feminism" as themselves, but they misjudged their own gender. Women have been mistreated for a very long time, and most of us have pretty sensitive bullshit meters. Most women know when they're being patronized and oppressed, and are no more willing to let N.O.W. tell them what to think and do than Promise Keepers.

As a result, the radicals have inherited the term "feminism" but have lost any claim to the principles it once espoused: equality and freedom. I for one am happy to see both women and men embrace and fight for the idea of equal pay for equal work while in the same breath refusing to be called feminists. It shows that they're not willing to let themselves be led around by a bunch of hate-filled totalitarian wannabes.

Equality hasn't been achieved yet. It won't be achieved until both women and men decide they like each other enough to make it happen, and I don't see radical feminists working very hard on this.

Thank you for elaborating. Seriously. I have two quick points & hopefully they make sense as I'm quite sleepy at the moment.

• IMO, it took radicals to reshape the attitudes and laws of this country. As is often the case, especially regarding prejudices & power, middle-the -road just wouldn't have cut it.
  
• I am still confused as to how/why feminists with more moderate veiwpoints, which would have once been considered radical , will allow those that they consider to be tainting the word feminism to do so. The term wasn't taken by radicals. It was given away and, in so doing, caused the movement towards equality between the sexes great harm.

• 
  

 

[Guest]

Min and Karen: I'm just going off the top of my head here so excuse what may sound unsubstantiated. Feminism has a complex history, and a complex org. chart (and I'm only talking a out the last wave). There have been many types of feminists: French (ecriture feminin), Liberal (white Americans), Black, Mujeristas (Hispanics), Lesbians, Radical, etc.

In this country there was much devisiveness among Liberals and Blacks, then the lesbians found themselves ignored or even unwanted (politically the Liberals thought the dykes would harm the inroads they were making). There were 'sects' who thought they were "more feminist than thou" before others.

It's kind of like saying there is only one kind of democrat or republican.

The male-controlled media has not helped. They began with derision (recall all the jokes about who wears the pants, or pantsuits, and those kooky bra burners). Whatever one thinks of Hilary Clinton she got guff right off the bat by being labeled a feminist. Later certain feminists rejected or derided her for supporting her philandering husband.

As with racism, it will really take generations before "feminism" is not a dirty word, or heavens--not even thought of as something "other".

Perdita (ready for bed now)

 

[Black Tulip]

I think I may have mentioned it before, but the name "feminism" has been replaced with "emancipation" in my country.

Feminism being reserved for the more radical women who want to make war on the men of this world.

Emancipation stands for the movement to make all people equal and give all people equal rights and opportunities.
The other side of the coin is that men will not be called sissies if they want to work part-time because they like to take care of the kids as well.
And not just white folks need to take a look at the way their roles are divided, but the vast minorities of Turkish and Maroc descent (in my country) need to emancipate as well.
Gay teachers have to be able to just be instead of pretend.
Well, you get the picture.

I think this is a good development. Let the word feminism slide back into history. It has served its purpose. Far more important is the realization that there is no such thing as male or female work or occupation or talents or whatever.

I am no longer a feminist, but I definitely am an emancipated woman. Meaning I can take care of myself and I can make choices about my life that are not solely based on my gender. I don't need a man to survive. I only want one to share life with, not to provide for me.

End of lecture.

 

[KarenAM]

minisue -- You're quite correct; it did take radicals to make many of the changes in the 1960s and 1970s. The trouble is that the time for radicalism passed, but the radicals remained.

I wonder -- and I'm speculating here -- if the reason more moderate feminists have not done so much to counter the radicals (though some do, and we shouldn't forget them) is because the more moderate feminists are actually at work living, utilizing the benefits that increasing (though not fully realized) equality has brought them. This has the effect of cementing the positive changes in a way that legislation can never have. So maybe this is a positive sign.

Perdita -- you are also quite right that feminism isn't simple. Neither is the media, and your notion that it is "male-controlled" implies that men are in some sort of conscious conspiracy to mislead everyone (don't get me wrong; there are many in the media who do intentionally mislead, but it isn't because they are men). Considering that you have correctly argued that women have lots of different agendas within feminism, are you saying that men don't have different agendas among themselves? The notion of a male conspiracy against women (the so-called "patriarchy") does nothing, in my opinion, except alienate those large numbers of men who would otherwise support feminism because they believe in fair-play (there's also the fact that patriarchies themselves are complex and varied, just like feminism is).

Black Tulip -- I agree that "emancipation" is a better word than "feminism". When I see how many of my male friends have been abused by the judicial system in divorce cases, or my gay friends having to live in fear and as second class citizens, as well as the mistreatment of women I have witnessed, I think to myself that we could all use a little equality, opportunity and emancipation.

For me, that means emancipation from both John Ashcroft and Andrea Dworkin.

 

[raphy]

Perdita -- you are also quite right that feminism isn't simple. Neither is the media, and your notion that it is "male-controlled" implies that men are in some sort of conscious conspiracy to mislead everyone (don't get me wrong; there are many in the media who do intentionally mislead, but it isn't because they are men). Considering that you have correctly argued that women have lots of different agendas within feminism, are you saying that men don't have different agendas among themselves? The notion of a male conspiracy against women (the so-called "patriarchy") does nothing, in my opinion, except alienate those large numbers of men who would otherwise support feminism because they believe in fair-play (there's also the fact that patriarchies themselves are complex and varied, just like feminism is).

Amen to that.

 

[oggbashan]

My oldest aunt was very rude about the Suffragettes. (She was THAT old). She made a career for herself and was self-sufficient before WWI - a householder in her own right and from money she had earned.

She thought that the Suffragettes were damaging their case for votes for women because they were playing up to the media image of women as irrational and incapable of reasoned debate. Their publicity stunts were alienating their supporters in the establishment of the time. Women's work during the First World War, in her opinion, did far more to advance women's issues than all the histrionics of the Suffragettes.

My aunt was one of the first women to vote in the UK because she was over 30 and a property holder. She voted in every election from the first until she died because 'It was her duty, not a right.'

I am glad I knew her.

Og

 

[Guest]

Perdita -- you are also quite right that feminism isn't simple. Neither is the media, and your notion that it is "male-controlled" implies that men are in some sort of conscious conspiracy to mislead everyone (don't get me wrong; there are many in the media who do intentionally mislead, but it isn't because they are men). Considering that you have correctly argued that women have lots of different agendas within feminism, are you saying that men don't have different agendas among themselves? The notion of a male conspiracy against women (the so-called "patriarchy") does nothing, in my opinion, except alienate those large numbers of men who would otherwise support feminism because they believe in fair-play (there's also the fact that patriarchies themselves are complex and varied, just like feminism is).

Karen, I did say I was talking off the top of my head. No, of course I don't believe there is a 'conspiracy', but I do believe that patriarchy is embedded in millennia of cultures, in the major world religions, and in all language. Men can be chauvinists unconsciously, just as women can be towards each other. A culture does not change in mere decades, and certainly not one simultaneously entrenched in capitalism.

For me education is very important in understanding something like feminism. I've read dozens of books, articles, essays, etc., taken university courses, and am still working on knowing what's what. Most people only go by the media and gossip. Who would say they have a clear concept of world history merely by reading the newspapers and Time magazine?

As for Dworkin, she's like a zero in the grand scheme of things. Everyone always brings her up as if she were a totem or had any power. She doesn't, she just has a way of putting herself out there for the media to brandish. If anything she's less than a fraction of the percentage of feminist voices.

Perdita

 

[Svenskaflicka]

From what I understand, in USA women make 76 cents for each dollar a man makes...

I think the whole deal about media is a little complicated. On one hand, we have the conservative media-men, who want to see women in no other roles than housekeepers, cleaningwomen, and mothers, because that's their ideal world. No competition for the jobs, and no having to do their part of the household chores.

On the other hand, we have those who'd consider women as professional workers, albeit in "harmless" roles such as teachers, nurses, and - you guessed it - cleaningwomen. There might even be some bold idealists who dream of showing women as stock brokers, executives, lawyers, and surgeons, but they meet heavy opposition from the companies who buy commercials from the media, because these companies believe that women who stay at home and focus on cooking, cleaning, and raising kids, will be more faithful costumers than women who work, even though the latter have more money.

Only a tight-minded person will tell a woman that she MUSTN'T be a housewife, that she's a shallow moron if she does; but it's also a very tight-minded person to tell a woman that she MUST be a housewife, that she will be a bad mother and an unfeminine woman if she doesn't.

We may have the right to vote, the right to study, and the right to work. That's nice. But it's not enough.
We don't have any candidate to vote for, no-one who looks after our interests.
We may get into Ivy League schools, but once we're there, our work isn't as appreciated as our male classmates, and if we get sexually molested at campus, which happens only too often, we are told that we had it coming for walking outside alone.
We are discriminated against when it comes to hiring; most employers prefer men, we get asked about how much use the company will actually get from us before we go on maternity leave, and we make 76% of our male co-workers, just because we don't have a dick.

These are the issues we should focus on first of all. Then, when that's done, THEN we can sit down and discuss push-up bras and make-up and leg-shaving.

 

[KarenAM]

Karen, I did say I was talking off the top of my head. No, of course I don't believe there is a 'conspiracy', but I do believe that patriarchy is embedded in millennia of cultures, in the major world religions, and in all language. Men can be chauvinists unconsciously, just as women can be towards each other. A culture does not change in mere decades, and certainly not one simultaneously entrenched in capitalism.

My apologies if I came off as abrupt, Perdita. I am perhaps oversensitive.

I agree that patriarchy is ancient, but what I hear radical feminists talk about is the patriarchy, which really exists only in their paranoid fantasies. As a general cultural feature, patriarchy can be changed to make it more fair (just as matriarchy can). Views of God can be rethought (she's black, you know... ) and in fact constantly are. Women, too, can be chauvinists against men without thinking about it; we are all human and all have our dark sides.

I'm not sure what specifically there is about capitalism that slows cultural change, though.

I'm glad you continue to read and learn; I try to also. As to Dworkin, her name comes to mind as an example of how wrong things can get with any movement such as feminism. She is only one of many with extreme views, particularly in the academic world. She is also particularly relevent to this board, since she would probably view what we write at Literotica as anti-woman because it is sexual.

Anyhow, I hope I haven't given too much offense, and apologize if I have.

 

[Guest]

Anyhow, I hope I haven't given too much offense, and apologize if I have.

No, none at all, I just did not want to be misunderstood. All's well, thanks. P.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I agree that patriarchy is ancient, but what I hear radical feminists talk about is the patriarchy, which really exists only in their paranoid fantasies.

That I think is a bit too much. To talk about The Patriarchy is like talking about The Environment. We have it all around us, all over the world, but we all deal with it locally.

Are you calling me paranoid?

 

[CharleyH]

What book turned you onto feminism or into a feminist (however you define the term)? If not a book, what?

I remember very well in my early twenties (mid-sixties) learning about “Feminism” and realizing I had always been one, then simply feeling glad it had a name.

How about you?

Perdita

Notes to a Young Feminist

Well - I can't stand the word - what it has come to mean. I think this is in part due to the all white corp. machinery that has sullied - lol - what a word - my view. My Mother, who would be 56 at this moment - loved the word. She once suggested to me, when I said I can't stand the word:

"ANY woman who wants a job, who wants their sexual freedon, who wants independence, IS a feminist - like it or not."

I thought about those words. She is right in part.

I would go further. I do not define myself like my Mother. I cannot deny my feminist roots - but where she, and those before her fought - I do not have to fight for the same things. Everything evolves. I EXPECT equality - period. THAT comes from my Mother. I expect that I can tell someone off if they make rude remarks sexually as an example - and I do - fired? LOL - never - Mom taught me something about law . . . and yet I diverge from her - or do I?

Over the last few days people I haven't seen for years said to me, as long as you are alive - your mother is. I have thought about this.

My Mother always took control - of everything - business - sexual. She was not as sexual as I am - yet I owe my sexuality to her?

IT'S A CONUNDRUM - LOL

My feminism - I don't define myself that way because there is something kind of dirty about it. I know logically that this is because of mainstream all white corp. culture - I cannot help but hear my Mothers words, and owe my strength to her - hmmm

going on and just thinking here . . . hmmm can't answer. My Mother influenced me - it just always was for both my brother and I - not simply said, but actively lived by her, and we both live by and through her?

We had many debates about rape - sex - orgasm - she was as I am . . . yet still I never agreed with her on feminism - the terminology - the definition - or did I?

 

[Guest]

Charlus, that's a wonderful response, makes me feel I know your mother (seems she was just a year younger than me). P.

 

[CharleyH]

well you are just a wee bit sexier than my MOM P - though she was gorgeous - just would never flirt with her . . . that is not my thing - LOL - thinking - YEP definate - but we were open. I really cant answer - she was Gloria and I am Camille - yet we agree on much. Nothing I read . . . just is - if you cant take it - cant give it bacj without fear - you are a fool. Just me

Charlus, that's a wonderful response, makes me feel I know your mother (seems she was just a year younger than me). P.

 

[Madame Manga]

When I was a wee girl, there still were legal barriers to a woman's independence, especially to a married woman. My mother divorced my father and went through considerable difficulties establishing her own creditworthiness (yes, it was HARD to get a Visa in those days). My sister was one of the first girls to take shop classes at our junior high; she didn't want to do home economics for the practical arts requirement, but my father had to go see the principal before she could sign up. And the old fart running the metal shop treated her like a nuisance instead of a student.

She now has a master's in electrical engineering. So there.

So I have always been conscious of statutory equality for the sexes before the law. I became overconscious of feminist ideas somewhere in college, I think. I didn't shave my legs even though I felt ugly with hairy calves. I lost my moral compass in the service of ideology. I decided that men were untrustworthy and sex-obsessed, and so I took pre-emptive action. Bad idea.

I had to learn, painfully, to treat people as people rather than as wombs or penises. We all have our priorities and our quirks. The sexes are different, but fundamentally we are all members of the same race. We cannot be identical and all function identically, and our inevitable differences should be celebrated. To me, the best sort of feminism celebrates women as women, not as either wage-earners or housekeepers. Feminism should say, "I am a woman, and I love it"; or "I am a man, and I love and value women."

The worst manifestation of the worst kinds of feminism, IMO, are the devaluation of motherhood and the raising of children. Not only do some women criticize other women for making their families their pride and their life's work, but some men use corrupted feminist ideas as an excuse not to face their own responsibilities as fathers and partners. Human beings were not meant to bring up the next generation in solitary confinement. Parents have to sacrifice autonomy and individual freedoms to do their duty by their offspring, and that applies to both sexes. A feminist man does not tell his pregnant sex partner, "Well, just get an abortion or something," and then if she refuses, desert her and her child because women are allowed to be "independent" in this enlightened age.

MM