How is all this Republican overreach going to play out in November 2014?

[Sean]

There was one contemporaneous welcome event for RVN vets, in San Mateo. The big welcome for Iran hostages catalyzed contemplation of the fact that Viet vets had gotten nothing.

When The Wall was dedicated in 82, no president dared show. Warner and Mathias were the only 2 politicos. Wasn't until 85 that NY staged a welcome.

So there were 2 phases -- the first where serving was decidedly uncool, and the second where it became sorta cool to have been there.

I never got a parade after my two little jaunts into Northern Ireland. SAhould we start a special "Waaaaaahhhh!111" thread or just bitch about it in this one?

 

[VaticanAssassin]

Except mobility.....which is why I say the other Air mobile/super light legs hit the fan first. Conn-ex full of rucks, issue weapons...get on the bird....buh bye!!

Can't do that with most other units, as least they didn't while I was in.



Tropic thunder is boss...so is 1st cav and 3rd ID. But those divisions can't deploy world wide by the end of the day, they are simply too heavy.

Stryker & Bradley FV's...all kinds of gear.

I'm not saying they are bad...god knows nothing gives you an "AWWWW YEEEAAA BOY!!!!" feeling like having 1ID/25th/1st Cav/3rd/2nd or any of the dorito chips show up to have your back....accept maybe an A10, whale farts are pretty gangster.

The 25th has changed sightly. Not a Joe in the bunch not sporting his air assault at least. Their primary mission is still the Pacific so you are right in that they do not have the heavy birds to get them to the desert quickly.

My unit scored the highest marks possible at both JRTC and NTC.

 

[landslider2000]

Whining about a jaunt is distinct from 2.7 million serving in Viet.

Carter, Reagan, et al. could have bestirred themselves for the dedication of the VV Memorial.

 

[BotanyBoy]

The 25th has changed sightly. Not a Joe in the bunch not sporting his air assault at least. Their primary mission is still the Pacific so you are right in that they do not have the heavy birds to get them to the desert quickly.

My unit scored the highest marks possible at both JRTC and NTC.

Yea I wondered about that...I saw a lot of them with wings, I was like "Wtf???"

Nice...we always scored really well, esp with the 101st, but I fucking hated JRTC...fuck Ft.Polk....fuck it right in it's swampy ass and the rest of Louisiana too for that matter. What a horrible place to live.

 

[RobDownSouth]

There was one contemporaneous welcome event for RVN vets, in San Mateo. The big welcome for Iran hostages catalyzed contemplation of the fact that Viet vets had gotten nothing.

When The Wall was dedicated in 82, no president dared show. Warner and Mathias were the only 2 politicos. Wasn't until 85 that NY staged a welcome.

So there were 2 phases -- the first where serving was decidedly uncool, and the second where it became sorta cool to have been there.

I'd argue there's a third phase, military worship.

It's not enough to "respect" the military nowadays, it's progressed to "everyone in the military is a hero!" fetish, which ultimately cheapens the actions of the real heroes in the military.

 

[dan_c00000]

Posers are everywhere and prior service can spot them from a mile away. I love calling them out for it in public too....Universities are extra full of posers.

And god do I revel in each opportunity to catch an ROTC cadet shit bagging it up....oh that's just good old fashioned fun.



91-01 combat was pretty sporadic and short lived. 173rd/82nd/101st/10th/75th/ODA saw it but not many outside of those units.

In that case you're a "poser" as well. You're not getting a PhD you didn't serve in the military and of course you're barely a person.

Also if 1991 - 2001 was so...oh nevermind I'll just copy and paste the list.

1990–1999[edit]

1990 – Liberia: On August 6, 1990, President Bush reported that a reinforced rifle company had been sent to provide additional security to the U.S. Embassy in Monrovia, and that helicopter teams had evacuated U.S. citizens from Liberia.[RL30172]

1990 – Saudi Arabia: On August 9, 1990, President Bush reported that he launched Operation Desert Shield by ordering the forward deployment of substantial elements of the U.S. armed forces into the Persian Gulf region to help defend Saudi Arabia after the August 2 invasion of Kuwait by Iraq. On November 16, 1990, he reported the continued buildup of the forces to ensure an adequate offensive military option.[RL30172]American hostages being held in Iran.[RL30172] Staging point for the troops was primarily Bagram air field.

1991 – Iraq and Kuwait. Operation Desert Storm: On January 16, 1991, in response to the refusal by Iraq to leave Kuwait, U.S. and Coalition aircraft attacked Iraqi forces and military targets in Iraq and Kuwait in conjunction with a coalition of allies and under United Nations Security Council resolutions. In February 24, 1991, U.S.-led United Nation (UN) forces launched a ground offensive that finally drove Iraqi forces out of Kuwait within 100 hours. Combat operations ended on February 28, 1991, when President Bush declared a ceasefire.[RL30172]

1991–1996 – Iraq. Operation Provide Comfort: Delivery of humanitarian relief and military protection for Kurds fleeing their homes in northern Iraq during the 1991 uprising, by a small Allied ground force based in Turkey which began in April 1991.

1991 – Iraq: On May 17, 1991, President Bush stated that the Iraqi repression of the Kurdish people had necessitated a limited introduction of U.S. forces into northern Iraq for emergency relief purposes.[RL30172]

1991 – Zaire: On September 25–27, 1991, after widespread looting and rioting broke out in Kinshasa, Air Force C-141s transported 100 Belgian troops and equipment into Kinshasa. American planes also carried 300 French troops into the Central African Republic and hauled evacuated American citizens.[RL30172]

1992 – Sierra Leone. Operation Silver Anvil: Following the April 29 coup that overthrew President Joseph Saidu Momoh, a United States European Command (USEUCOM) Joint Special Operations Task Force evacuated 438 people (including 42 Third Country nationals) on May 3. Two Air Mobility Command (AMC) C-141s flew 136 people from Freetown, Sierra Leone, to the Rhein-Main Air Base in Germany and nine C-130 sorties carried another 302 people to Dakar, Senegal.[RL30172]

1992–1996 – Bosnia and Herzegovina: Operation Provide Promise was a humanitarian relief operation in Bosnia and Herzegovina during the Yugoslav Wars, from July 2, 1992, to January 9, 1996, which made it the longest running humanitarian airlift in history.[6]

1992 – Kuwait: On August 3, 1992, the United States began a series of military exercises in Kuwait, following Iraqi refusal to recognize a new border drawn up by the United Nations and refusal to cooperate with UN inspection teams.[RL30172]

1992–2003 – Iraq. Iraqi no-fly zones: The U.S., United Kingdom, and its Gulf War allies declared and enforced "no-fly zones" over the majority of sovereign Iraqi airspace, prohibiting Iraqi flights in zones in southern Iraq and northern Iraq, and conducting aerial reconnaissance and bombings. Often, Iraqi forces continued throughout a decade by firing on U.S. and British aircraft patrolling no-fly zones.(See also Operation Northern Watch, Operation Southern Watch) [RL30172]

1992–1995 – Somalia. Operation Restore Hope. Somali Civil War: On December 10, 1992, President Bush reported that he had deployed U.S. armed forces to Somalia in response to a humanitarian crisis and a UN Security Council Resolution in support for UNITAF. The operation came to an end on May 4, 1993. U.S. forces continued to participate in the successor United Nations Operation in Somalia (UNOSOM II).(See also Battle of Mogadishu)[RL30172]

1993-1995 - Bosnia. Operation Deny Flight: On April 12, 1993, in response to a United Nations Security Council passage of Resolution 816, U.S. and NATO enforced the no-fly zone over the Bosnian airspace, prohibited all unauthorized flights and allowed to "take all necessary measures to ensure compliance with [the no-fly zone restrictions]."

1993 – Macedonia: On July 9, 1993, President Clinton reported the deployment of 350 U.S. soldiers to the Republic of Macedonia to participate in the UN Protection Force to help maintain stability in the area of former Yugoslavia.[RL30172]

1994: Bosnia. Banja Luka incident: NATO become involved in the first combat situation when NATO U.S. Air Force F-16 jets shot down four of the six Bosnian Serb J-21 Jastreb single-seat light attack jets for violating UN-mandated no-fly zone.

1994–1995 – Haiti. Operation Uphold Democracy: U.S. ships had begun embargo against Haiti. Up to 20,000 U.S. military troops were later deployed to Haiti to restore democratically-elected Haiti President Jean-Bertrand Aristide from a military regime which came into power in 1991 after a major coup.[RL30172]

1994 – Macedonia: On April 19, 1994, President Clinton reported that the U.S. contingent in Macedonia had been increased by a reinforced company of 200 personnel.[RL30172]

1995 – Bosnia. Operation Deliberate Force: In August 30, 1995, U.S. and NATO aircraft began a major bombing campaign of Bosnian Serb Army in response to a Bosnian Serb mortar attack on a Sarajevo market that killed 37 people in August 28, 1995. This operation lasted until September 20, 1995. The air campaign along with a combined allied ground force of Muslim and Croatian Army against Serb positions led to a Dayton agreement in December 1995 with the signing of warring factions of the war. As part of Operation Joint Endeavor, U.S. and NATO dispatched the Implementation Force (IFOR) peacekeepers to Bosnia to uphold the Dayton agreement.[RL30172]

1996 – Liberia. Operation Assured Response: On April 11, 1996, President Clinton reported that on April 9, 1996 due to the "deterioration of the security situation and the resulting threat to American citizens" in Liberia he had ordered U.S. military forces to evacuate from that country "private U.S. citizens and certain third-country nationals who had taken refuge in the U.S. Embassy compound...."[RL30172]

1996 – Central African Republic. Operation Quick Response: On May 23, 1996, President Clinton reported the deployment of U.S. military personnel to Bangui, Central African Republic, to conduct the evacuation from that country of "private U.S. citizens and certain U.S. government employees", and to provide "enhanced security for the American Embassy in Bangui."[RL30172] United States Marine Corps elements of Joint Task Force Assured Response, responding in nearby Liberia, provided security to the embassy and evacuated 448 people, including between 190 and 208 Americans. The last Marines left Bangui on June 22.

1996-Kuwait. Operation Desert Strike: American Air Strikes in the north to protect the Kurdish population against the Iraqi Army attacks. U.S. deploys 5,000 soldiers from the 1ST Cavalry Division at Ft Hood Texas in response to Iraqi attacks on the Kurdish people.[citation needed]

1996 - Bosnia. Operation Joint Guard: In December 21, 1996, U.S. and NATO established the SFOR peacekeepers to replace the IFOR in enforcing the peace under the Dayton agreement.

1997 – Albania. Operation Silver Wake: On March 13, 1997, U.S. military forces were used to evacuate certain U.S. government employees and private U.S. citizens from Tirana, Albania.[RL30172]

1997 – Congo and Gabon: On March 27, 1997, President Clinton reported on March 25, 1997, a standby evacuation force of U.S. military personnel had been deployed to Congo and Gabon to provide enhanced security and to be available for any necessary evacuation operation.[RL30172]

1997 – Sierra Leone: On May 29 and May 30, 1997, U.S. military personnel were deployed to Freetown, Sierra Leone, to prepare for and undertake the evacuation of certain U.S. government employees and private U.S. citizens.[RL30172]

1997 – Cambodia: On July 11, 1997, In an effort to ensure the security of American citizens in Cambodia during a period of domestic conflict there, a Task Force of about 550 U.S. military personnel were deployed at Utapao Air Base in Thailand for possible evacuations. [RL30172]

1998 – Iraq. Operation Desert Fox: U.S. and British forces conduct a major four-day bombing campaign from December 16–19, 1998 on Iraqi targets.[RL30172]

1998 – Guinea-Bissau. Operation Shepherd Venture: On June 10, 1998, in response to an army mutiny in Guinea-Bissau endangering the U.S. Embassy, President Clinton deployed a standby evacuation force of U.S. military personnel to Dakar, Senegal, to evacuate from the city of Bissau.[RL30172]

1998–1999 – Kenya and Tanzania: U.S. military personnel were deployed to Nairobi, Kenya, to coordinate the medical and disaster assistance related to the bombing of the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.[RL30172]

1998 – Afghanistan and Sudan. Operation Infinite Reach: On August 20, President Clinton ordered a cruise missile attack against two suspected terrorist training camps in Afghanistan and a suspected chemical factory in Sudan.[RL30172]

1998 – Liberia: On September 27, 1998, America deployed a stand-by response and evacuation force of 30 U.S. military personnel to increase the security force at the U.S. Embassy in Monrovia. [1] [RL30172]

1999–2001 - East Timor: Limited number of U.S. military forces deployed with the United Nations-mandated International Force for East Timor restore peace to East Timor.[RL30172]

1999 – Serbia. Operation Allied Force: U.S. and NATO aircraft began a major bombing of Serbia and Serb positions in Kosovo in March 24, 1999, during the Kosovo War due to the refusal by Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic to end repression against ethnic Albanians in Kosovo. This operation ended in June 10, 1999, when Milosevic agreed to pull out his troops out of Kosovo. In response to the situation in Kosovo, NATO dispatched the KFOR peacekeepers to secure the peace under UNSC Resolution 1244.[RL30172]

Face it you're a racist piece of trash that likes to "pose" or whatever dumbass term you want to use.

 

[landslider2000]

Uncle with 25 at Guadalcanal. Even after that, no picnic at Luzon.

Polk = armpit of world.

Stuff today with "warrior" rhetoric is absurd. The proper concept is citizen-soldier.

Universal compulsory service would help U.S. foreign policy by exposing the kids of even the rich/influential to the existential consequences of policy implementation.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Yep. An entire generation of vets got used to not mentioning their service.

When Iran hostages got a welcome home, it dawned on America that it had never welcomed back its Viet vets.

There typically aren't any parades for losers.

Carter, Reagan, et al. could have bestirred themselves for the dedication of the VV Memorial.

And in regard to your yammering about the Vietnam War memorial, people of a certain age recall that the initial design of the Wall was tremendously unpopular amongst Vietnam era vets (remember "black gash of shame"?) and so James Watt authorized a more traditional statue (the Three Soldiers...one black, one white, one Hispanic) off to the side that no one seems to remember anymore.

It took a long time for America to get over the sting of defeat in Vietnam.
(cue the "stabbed in the back" rationalizations from the usual suspects).

 

[VaticanAssassin]

Does he not get what is wrong with what he just posted

Not you Rob..not this time.

 

[landslider2000]

Vets didn't "lose" the war. That honor remained for the politicians and strategists.

The Wall was not a memorial to Vietnam -- qua country or war. That is a common mistake, but an error nonetheless.

It was a big mistake for folks like Carter and Reagan (the error was bipartisan) not to bestir themselves to remember better men than themselves.

 

[Sean]

Whining about a jaunt is distinct from 2.7 million serving in Viet.

Carter, Reagan, et al. could have bestirred themselves for the dedication of the VV Memorial.

Yeah, my little jaunt was part of a thirty year conflict. A shooting war fought primarily in urban streets. I want my parade, dammit! Fucking idiot.

 

[BotanyBoy]

In that case you're a "poser" as well. You're not getting a PhD you didn't serve in the military and of course you're barely a person.

Say what you want, my DD-214 looks better than wet pussy.

Also if 1991 - 2001 was so...oh nevermind I'll just copy and paste the list.

Yep and none of those had prolonged ground campaigns involving mass deployments of heavy armor or mechanized units.

Like I said, between Desert Storm and OIF/OEF it was sporadic and 9/10 times they will use airborne/air assault/air mobile unit's first in a crisis situation, and the first ones to put boots on the ground in a full on invasion/war.

And since WWII as far as the Army goes 82nd/75th/173rd and the 101st gets dibb's on the hole shot and ODA goes long before anyone else. Like I said if you spend enough time in any of those units you will get to have some fun.

Armor/mech? Not so much...not unless serious shit is hitting the fan or it just happens to occur next to one of our remote armored units (Germany/Korea), cost too much to move all that shit.

Everything I said was spot on, you would know that if you had a clue.

Face it you're a racist piece of trash that likes to "pose" or whatever dumbass term you want to use.

You can say it all day long but you have never proven my racism or poserness.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Stuff today with "warrior" rhetoric is absurd. The proper concept is citizen-soldier.

Unlike your generation when Americans were REAL warriors right?

LMFAO....

Then you go on to say shit like this...

Vets didn't "lose" the war. That honor remained for the politicians and strategists.

As if the joe humping through the jungle to face off with the VC with one hand tied around his nuts by a politician who thinks they have a clue.....

is any different...

Than joe humping all over the Himalayas/desert to face off with Al Qaeda/Taliban etc with one hand tied to his nuts by a politician who thinks they have a clue.

You know what the difference between Vietnam and OIF/OEF is? We have better toys/armor than you did.

Which means we reduced casualties by 80%....it also put a MASSIVE financial burden on the tax payer to care for the hundreds of thousands of fucked up vet's from OIF/OEF for the next 50+ years. Oooopsiedaisy!!

Otherwise it's still a hugely unpopular and rather pointless war fought for the financial interest of the military industrial complex, lost by dick bag politicians trying to wage a PC military campaign and fucking up a lot of lives in the process.

You even got a memorial at DC!!! Yet you still QQ about it....waaa...just not good enough for you hua? Real spokesman for your generation man.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Vets didn't "lose" the war. That honor remained for the politicians and strategists.

Hitler blamed politicians for Germany's loss in World War I, too.

tch...the company you keep...

 

[landslider2000]

The last generation to do the "My war was better" baloney was WW II.

The modern talk of "warriors" is conceptually flawed. History is replete with examples of the perils of a society having a distinct warrior class. My uncle who was with T Lightning on Guad was not a warrior, but a citizen-soldier.

As to memorials, when a society sends almost 3 million men to war, that society must take a second to remember.

Iraq/Afghan vets owe their good treatment to Viet vets who taught America to respect vets no matter the perceived merit of a war.

Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America owes much, conceptually, to the Vietnam Veterans of America. And there will, of course, be many memorials built re Iraq-Af vets.

 

[RobDownSouth]

The last generation to do the "My war was better" baloney was WW II.

The dark side of the "Greatest Generation" was detailed in an article on "Exactly WHO spit on the troops during Vietnam?"

Surprise, surprise!

The "greatest generation" veterans often looked down their noses at the 365-days-and-out Vietnam vets. "We won our war!" etc etc. Many Vietnam vets didn't pay any attention to the hippies and anti-war folks, but they looked up to the WWII vets for validation, and got very little validation from them.

Many VFW groups actively discouraged 'Nam vets from joining.

Guess they didn't like associating with losers either.

 

[KingOrfeo]

The modern talk of "warriors" is conceptually flawed. History is replete with examples of the perils of a society having a distinct warrior class. My uncle who was with T Lightning on Guad was not a warrior, but a citizen-soldier.

Don't forget the third option: Military professionals, who are neither citizen-soldiers (in the amateur or part-time or serving-only-in-wartime sense) nor from a hereditary warrior class. Most of today's Army is military professionals, I should think.

 

[landslider2000]

Yep, cadre.

WW II was a total societal effort, from "Rosie the Riveter" to "Willie and Joe." It featured Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, etc.

The lesson Viet vets taught America was to distinguish between the returning soldier and the architects of the war.

A society which doesn't respect its veterans delimits the potential of future generations, and it is very far from whining or yammering to note this.

 

[KingOrfeo]

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1/sad4k.jpg

http://thenonist.com/images/uploads/maudlin2.jpg

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/03/02/books/michaelis-190.jpg

"Hell of a way to waste time. Does it work?"

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lPBRHZBGm-M/TPM25i32OLI/AAAAAAAAGYM/Df4dioNn7y8/s400/mauldin%2B1.GIF

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_fE6xFfGBo3E/TEIyuTIHoLI/AAAAAAAADf0/Hz4SK0jUc5w/s400/8+I'm+beginning.jpg

http://www.mishalov.com/images/mauldinjeep.jpg

 

[BotanyBoy]

The last generation to do the "My war was better" baloney was WW II.

Bullshit...I have seen vet's from Korea to present tout their "Back in my day" buuu shit.

The modern talk of "warriors" is conceptually flawed. History is replete with examples of the perils of a society having a distinct warrior class. My uncle who was with T Lightning on Guad was not a warrior, but a citizen-soldier.

Picking fly shit from pepper there.

You go kill people for country you're a soldier.

You go kill people for a paycheck you're a merc.

Either way you go fight and kill for a living, be it on the word of the pope, the king, the queen, the president, emperor, the CEO....clubs and spears to M4's and AK's. Bottom line is you're in the business of conducting warfare, is that not what "warriors" have done for eons?

Yea it's all modernized and regulated and blah blah legal fucky doo all day long...but it's still the same shit.

Plus "citizen soldier" sounds so fucking...............ghey.

As to memorials, when a society sends almost 3 million men to war, that society must take a second to remember.

They should....I agree. But technically they don't have to do shit except fulfill the legal agreements/protections we provide our service members with. The VA is recognition....the GI bill is recognition....VA home loan guarantees are recognition....all the discounts you get at business's large and small nation wide are remembrance and thanks, 2 holidays with 4 day weekends and shit....that's what we get. I'm not really sure what else you expect them to do for us man....WTF??? They can't make EVERYBODY treat us like rock stars...it would be pretty tits if they could though wouldn't it???

Iraq/Afghan vets owe their good treatment to Viet vets who taught America to respect vets no matter the perceived merit of a war.

You seriously think it was all fine scotch and virgin pussy at tha club coming home from the Iraq invasion? WRONG....ok maybe a little bit but you can't tell me you didn't have some good times when you got home.

But seriously....there were wine sipping hippie dick suckers waiting to spit and scream "Bush's baby killers" with all their "Blood oil barbarian" signs, various anti Bush signs and other dumb shit. Cheating ass whore wives, suicides, bar fights, DUI's....yea I know 2-3 generations later combat brigades still come home all sorts of dysfunctional as fuck back in the civilian world. Caused a lot more social tension than you might realize....esp in military towns.

Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America owes much, conceptually, to the Vietnam Veterans of America. And there will, of course, be many memorials built re Iraq-Af vets.

In a way yes because they pushed to make things like the VA what they are today. Thanks man...things are pretty sweet, if you have a case you should make it.

God I hope not but you're probably right.

 

[KingOrfeo]

You go kill people for country you're a soldier.

You go kill people for a paycheck you're a merc.

And if you do it for fun?

 

[BotanyBoy]

And if you do it for fun?

If it's just because then that would be murder.

However if you're on the job that doesn't mean you can't enjoy or take pride in your work.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

My son, recently retired from the military, spent his first 3 enlistments stalking and killing people for the government. He went to all kinds of places and took out human pests, like snipers who fired at cruise ships going thru the Panama Canal. Then he did an enlistment as an armorer, and cross-trained to intelligence collection.

One really fun gig he did was capturing some US Senators touring a missle launch site. His teams mission was to test the security, and they bagged 6 Senators.

 

[jeninflorida]

Jesus why is that frogger bitch boy still whinning? someone needs to take his crack!

 

[KingOrfeo]

Then he did an enlistment as an armorer, and cross-trained to intelligence collection.

What does an armorer do?