How others see us. Examples.

[Netzach]

I said it was hot. Not just hot but smart and literate hot, the best kind for me.

And I think there's emotional veracity in it. I buy it, elevator and all, in the suspended disbelief way. I think this is sale-able and good stuff.

What this has to do with "us" though, I'm still unclear.

 

[sunfox]

I agree with Netzach.. it's a hot story, very sexy. I got into the excerpt enough to go out and read the entire thing, and I really enjoyed it.

I think to a degree that perdita's classification of bdsm lite is correct. It's not severe bondage, it's not severe sadism. For a prostitute, one would think a little slapping and teasing wouldn't really upset her that much. But for me, my reaction might be that severe.. so I guess for me, it works.

It's not harsh sadism. In some ways, I don't know that I'd consider it sadism at all.. no real harm is done to her.

But I still enjoyed the story.

 

[Pure]

According to your view, S and N, give a couple examples of the hottest passages of the story, and what about the writing makes them that way?

 

[MathGirl]

?

Dear Pure,
I had to modify my "Ignore" list to read your thread, but it is now restored. If you were to ask my permission to quote anything of mine in this thread, the request would be refused. I do not write bdsm and have no interest in it. Well, I have poked fun at it a few times.

Please leave me and anything I have written out of this pissing contest, Poo Poo Head.
Sincerely,
MG

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I assumed that in your 80 posted stories you'd given bdsm a go. (Thought you played 'survivor.' ) Why not give it a shot! Don't be scared. There are no sadists around. (We'll help publicize you!)

And you never bothered to look up my profile and see what stories I had that was listed BDSM? If you had, you'd never have included me in your list at all.

Thanks, but no thanks. The reason why I always use an Immunity to get out of writing BDSM, is because I don't find this erotic.

*leaving*

 

[Pure]

Unfortunately, MG, as a producer of free porn for the millions, you have no control over its being excerpted and discussed by anyone who pleases. You would have been asked, of course, as a courtesy, but perhaps now you give reason not to. I do appreciate your minimal civility, even though your grudge, too, seems very longlived.

Oh, and do give perd a few kisses and roses from me.

I suspect each of perd's pups is summoned to come and have a piss on this hydrant.



I wonder if you [pure] have the intelligence to realize how apparent your hypocricy and genuine ignorence is, in this, your very own thread. -- perdita

NOTE to readers. It seems the 'vanilla' crowd who write in every category are VERY antsy about being reviewed in this one, by these particular deviates they write about.

As Netzach says, however, the real test is imagination; a writer does NOT have to directly know something.

 

[sunfox]

I do intend to answer you, Pure, but I had to stop and giggle at the apparently serious useage of the term Poo Poo Head.

*Does so*

Okay. Post to follow in a bit.

 

[Pure]

Hi Svenska F,

you say,

SF: And you never bothered to look up my profile and see what stories I had that was listed BDSM? If you had, you'd never have included me in your list at all.

That point was already made, SF. Sorry. I somehow confused you with your twin.

Thanks, but no thanks. The reason why I always use an Immunity to get out of writing BDSM, is because I don't find this erotic.

I understand. At least you know your tastes and limits.

Whipping is icky, a 23 year old fucking her (conveniently) 18 year old bro. is a real turn on.

What A Comfort - "Older sister comforts heartbroken baby brother.. " by Svenskaflicka.

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=60460

 

[Guest]

Puerile pure, you give yourself more credit than you are due. No pups, minions, fans or stalkers have been summoned, though of course I let SF and MG know what they might expect. The other persons you might dread will not come here (we trash you privately).

Please stop using the term ‘grudge’. We merely find you obnoxious and an affront to civility, it’s nowhere near to being personal enough to be called a grudge. You are the one who takes it personal and uses phony roses and kissy-huggy quasi-sarcasm to strike out in your uniquely logical, and lacking any degree of elegance—impotence.

Given other’s posts above, and PMs (received by those of ‘your kind’ [what a joke] who choose not to recognize your thread, or you), I have no anxiety being reviewed. I hold by no criticism except for my own and that of two other writers here. Only my sexuality is vanilla, you, however, have a vanilla conscience, sour at best.

I do believe you salivate and/or dribble in various ways by means of my responses to you, so adios, pendejo.

Perdita

 

[Pure]

Sunf: //the apparently serious useage of the term Poo Poo Head.//

It was not 'usage', but what the hell.

 

[Pure]

(tear)
perdida: so adios

Ah were it only true mi amor!
It's your sixth** post.
----

**Correction added: should be 'fifth' but the night is young.

 

[bridgeburner]

Pure,

I find a lot of so-called vanilla porn with BDSM undertones --- most of it in the Non-Consent/Reluctant folder although I imagine a fair amount of it is likely in the Incest folder as well.

The official trappings of BDSM - leather, restraints, whips, clamps, safewords and collars - are simply accessories. There's plenty of Dominance and Sadism in rape stories but they aren't offically "kink" because they lack the proper uniform.

I'd rather read a vanilla story about reluctant or non-consensual sex than to get bogged down by a five paragraph description of Sir executing a hog-tie on his subbie-slut-slave. A "Dominate" in leather pants is risible but a construction worker in faded Levis grabbing a fistfull of mane and compelling oral gratification from a secretary who wandered too close to the work site is hot.

The things which resonated with me in the excerpted piece by Perdita are the mind fuck and the fact that he aroused her then pissed her off to the point where she resented being aroused. That's very D/s to my mind. While there was some slapping and pinching his sadism was more mental/emotional than physical. He does tie her up, however. I assume Perdita terms it "BDSM lite" because of the absence of whips and chains.

Whether or not non-scensters can write convincingly about formal BDSM scenes the underlying appeal of power games is pan-kink. You don't have to be into leather to enjoy being overpowered and understand the appeal.


-B

 

[MathGirl]

Do sod off now, cabron.

Dear Perdita,
That was a masterful admixture of an English idiomatic phrase with a Spanish compliment. Well done.
MG
Ps. This thread is kind of fun. I've even removed Pure from the ignore list.
Pps. I still don't understand why my name came up in the post that started this thread. I don't write bdsm.
Ppps. "Pup," my alabaster arse.

 

[sunfox]

Sunf: //the apparently serious useage of the term Poo Poo Head.//

It was not 'usage', but what the hell.

Even my perfection sometimes suffers an extra letter. I'm terribly upset that my singular misspelling would upset you so.

Or.. not. Poo poo head.

 

[Pure]

SF: It wasn't a comment on your spelling, poo face. I was adverting to the 'use/mention' distinction.

 

[sunfox]

According to your view, S and N, give a couple examples of the hottest passages of the story, and what about the writing makes them that way?

"I had hardly risen from my seat as he swept into the car—no bow—and as I began he stopped me with a strong hold on one shoulder. He pointed to the door and I closed it. The music was Ravel’s Bolero."

- The very confidence of the man, 'swept into' 'no bow' 'a strong hold on one shoulder'... this appeals to me. The wording, the mental image, the remembered sensation of a man like this, with this certainty. The music as well, as something I am well familiar with, has a certain sensual appeal in my mind. An association with passion.

"I was dying to ask him to let me come but I dared not. I did, however, use all the expression in my eyes knowing I was begging silently.

He grinned wickedly and turned his mouth into a smirk."

- Here, I think.. it's the concept of a self-assured woman for whom this is a job, albeit a pleasurable one, wanting to beg of her own accord for something. Wanting to plead with a client for release, and the expression on his face, taunting, cruel, amused at her surrender.

"Suddenly he slapped my breasts hard, spanked them really so that it only hurt. There was no intercourse of the pain and pleasure I enjoyed with Rodney."
"Too soon, I was taken out of anger and sorrow with the realization that he was kissing my cunt."

- I needed two separate lines here because they connect for me. The former is his exercise of power, of his own pleasure over her, humilating her, giving her pain with no pleasure for herself. The latter connects because I think though it wouldn't be considered sadism usually to go down on her and give her pleasure.. the pleasure is painful because of his contemptuous treatement previously. As if it were meant to aggravate the slaps by forcing her to enjoy the situation, force her body to react positively. *shrug* Not sure I'm explaining it the way I want to, but I liked it.

"As he walked out of the elevator Umeko entered with her duffle-bag and a robe for me. She had such an expression of pity I began to weep as if truly grieving. It seemed fitting—I felt I had been murdered somehow."

- Delicious, to me, the way he just made her body not her own, her reactions foreign to her, then left her there. Making her so much more the whore than she'd been before. Killing something in her that had controlled things, and leaving her bereft.

My two cents. I'll be needing that change back, thanks.

 

[Pure]

Hi Sunfox,

Recognizing that arousal is subjective, I'll comment on some passages you mention, and your comments. Then on a couple of my choosing. I also believe there are quasi objective literary standards, signs of good writing, and skilled and less skilled ways of writing pornish erotica.

Further it should almost go without saying that we are dealing with a highly skilled and literate writer, whose story is quite polished and generally well thought out. Analysis is still in order; we're mostly amateurs; everyone has slips. The author in italics. Sunfox in //xxx///

"I was dying to ask him to let me come but I dared not. I did, however, use all the expression in my eyes knowing I was begging silently.

He grinned wickedly and turned his mouth into a smirk."

//- Here, I think.. it's the concept of a self-assured woman for whom this is a job, albeit a pleasurable one, wanting to beg of her own accord for something. Wanting to plead with a client for release, and the expression on his face, taunting, cruel, amused at her surrender.//

I concur on the concept, but the execution has some shortcomings, here: "I dared not" has a Victorian ring to it, as do a few other phrases in the story. A kind of partly educated and innocent formality, of a 19th century virgin. I find use all the expression in my eyes knowing I was begging silently awkward, as is 'turned his mouth into a smirk'. For the first, I'd prefer "I begged him silently with my eyes." For the second, "Then, he smirked."


"Suddenly he slapped my breasts hard, spanked them really so that it only hurt. There was no intercourse of the pain and pleasure I enjoyed with Rodney."
"Too soon, I was taken out of anger and sorrow with the realization that he was kissing my cunt."

//- I needed two separate lines here because they connect for me. The former is his exercise of power, of his own pleasure over her, humilating her, giving her pain with no pleasure for herself. The latter connects because I think though it wouldn't be considered sadism usually to go down on her and give her pleasure.. the pleasure is painful because of his contemptuous treatement previously. As if it were meant to aggravate the slaps by forcing her to enjoy the situation, force her body to react positively. *shrug* Not sure I'm explaining it the way I want to, but I liked it.//

I generally agree that the writer is in the right vein. There's a certain shock value. At the same time, the heroine seems, esp at the moment, excessively analytical (almost as if the author is doing it for the reader) There was no intercourse of the pain and pleasure I enjoyed with Rodney." Then occurs "kissing my cunt" This is one of the odd clashes throughout the story. High flown Victorian romantic diction, peppered with raw, year 2000 literotica woman talk.

My analysis is that the author's own personality has tinged the first person narration. Do we have, here, an awkwardly formal, analytical innocent, or a high class ho with lots of 'street' in her?

I agree with the second part of your statement. The author conveys the sadism of the Japanese fellow's several pronged ("large,western size [penis]", remember? ) approach quite well.

"As he walked out of the elevator Umeko entered with her duffle-bag and a robe for me. She had such an expression of pity I began to weep as if truly grieving. It seemed fitting—I felt I had been murdered somehow."

//- Delicious, to me, the way he just made her body not her own, her reactions foreign to her, then left her there. Making her so much more the whore than she'd been before. Killing something in her that had controlled things, and leaving her bereft.//

I agree, here. The heroine's violation is well conveyed. Further, on the topic of this thread, sadism, is well illustrated. The author has done so concisely, without flightiness. Suppose she had said (my words, imitating the diction at some other spots) , "It seemed fitting: The innermost core of my being had been violated, leaving me bereft."

Here are a couple passages I'd present for comment to my responses.

He took me in his arms with great strength and kissed me hard and passionately, as if he knew me, as if I meant something to him. I did not have to act to return his kiss. It was an immediately arousing experience which I reciprocated with a fierce enthusiasm. He didn’t fuck or rape my mouth, merely explored it expertly and with a sensuality new to my role in this job. I became excited enough to make my own advances and ran my fingers through his lovely hair, another new sensual experience for me. My lipstick was smeared on his mouth and I didn’t care what mine looked like.
[...]

I don't find this to be effectively arousing. Phrases like "reciprocated with fierce enthusiasm" clang. The phrase "another new sensual experience for me." seems like to much analysis and 'telling.' How about, say, "A delicious experience!"

The smearing of lipstick is a nice touch, especially since she carries through on it, with further refs.

Then he stepped away and looked at me with hunger, a palpable lust in his eyes and pursed mouth. I knew he wanted me to undress so I did, but began as if nervous though I was merely overwrought with my own lust.

This is an awkward start for a para. "though I was merely overwrought in my own lust" seems over written, implausibly analytical. How about "though my lust took flame"; in modern terms, "though I'd gotten so turned on."


I fumbled with the jacket buttons and laughed nervously so he helped me. As soon as my jacket was off he quickly pinched my nipples hard through my blouse and bra. I jumped a bit at the instant pleasure and he laughed deeply as if he understood how I felt. I laughed too while he continued to fully cup my breasts and rub my nipples in the center of his palm. I thought I would have an orgasm in a minute, moaning low and loud, utterly unashamed of my state and expressions. I could hardly believe he’d aroused me that way through my clothes.

I find this is excellent. The author is in top erotic form, here, for this reader. The diction is more flowing and mid level, not the pseudo elevation of 18th and 19th heroines (including porn heroines like the Fanny Hill). It's a bit heavy in the adverbs. The arousal through clothes is erotic and overall she conveys it well.

----
Summing up. Lots of good writing. A few inconsistencies and infelicities. Generally good conveyance of sadism of a particular sort, and, near the end (remembering that the very end is not quoted here) effectively sparse description of reactions to it.

J.

 

[Pure]

Question for Netzach, Sunfox, others:

Given your favorable reviews of Elevator Girl, whom do you see as its intended audience? as its best audience (the ones who'll most enjoy it)?. Would that audience include SM folks? which ones? I'll withhold my opinion for now.

J.

 

[Etoile]

If the math girl and the chick with the fancy french name come in here, you'll find me in the fallout shelter.

Why rosco! You're not scared of little ol' me, are you?

 

[Etoile]

Now that I'm not in the forum where I moderate, I feel I can express my opinion a little more freely. My official moderator opinion is in the GLBT forum, but over here I'll tell you what I think just as a poster.

Pure, I think it was totally inappropriate of you to post your complaints over in GLBT Chatter. Including that little paragraph about "ooh, this could happen here" was total bullshit. You whined on and on about what's happening here in BDSM Talk, and mentioned "this could happen here" as an aside. The only way it could happen in GLBT Chatter, Pure, is if somebody like you posted an excerpt from a story. I think you were just trying to get more eyeballs on your thread here, and more support for your perspective. You are not a regular poster in GLBT Chatter, and that makes me think even more that you were just trying to drum up supporters among people you probably don't even know.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Why rosco! You're not scared of little ol' me, are you?

I kind of am; but mmle de la blue plume makes you look like a teletubby.

 

[Guest]

I kind of am; but mmle de la blue plume makes you look like a teletubby.

Brilliant! No offense, Etoile.

Perdita

 

[MathGirl]

Originally posted by Etoile You are not a regular poster in GLBT Chatter, and that makes me think even more that you were just trying to drum up supporters among people you probably don't even know.

Dear Etio,
That's very erudite, but have you considered the possibility that Pure is simply a poo poo head?
MG

 

[Pure]

Thanks for droppping by perd, and bringing a friend. I believe my 'six' is now correct; six visits by you, and five by the pups. i take it your a dios, is more hasta la manana.

c ya soon



PS Do you always drag out the break up of an affair this long-- like years?

 

[lark sparrow]

Hey, Pure... simply because she dismissed you, doesn't necessarily mean that she is exiting the thread and interaction with others.