I miss the fitness threads and the fitness Doms!

[damonX]

I agree actually. Trust me. Most physios are shit. Simply being a physio doesn't mean the person knows what they are doing. As in every profession there is a continuum of good to bad. Dotors too (General Practicioners) are notoriously bad when it comes to orthopedic injuries.

Working on the wrong side actually happens quite often. That really isn't an indication of the persons skill or knowledge.

 

[BiBunny]

I agree actually. Trust me. Most physios are shit. Simply being a physio doesn't mean the person knows what they are doing. As in every profession there is a continuum of good to bad. Dotors too (General Practicioners) are notoriously bad when it comes to orthopedic injuries.

Working on the wrong side actually happens quite often. That really isn't an indication of the persons skill or knowledge.

Just their lack of reading comprehension?

 

[damonX]

Quote:
Originally Posted by damonX
Actually you shouldn't be advising anything. You just probably wont see any noticeable changes. You really have no way of knowing if something "works" or not.

*shrug* We'll disagree here. I've been given enough utterly shit advice by doctors and PT's to disbelieve that a handful of letters after your name is all it takes to magically produce good advice. And I've gotten enough great advice from unlettered folks to realise that lack of letters does not somehow make good advice into shit.

Wow, I see that I've completely overestimated your intelligence.

And, uh, sorry, DX, but if I see a guy walk in with serious back pain that has persisted for years, and he walks out a few months later to not need meds, well, that's change. And, sure, it might've occured spontaneously, but if it went on for years and the only change in his life was productive exercise and movement, it certainly isn't bad odds that something in that movement helped.

Wow, I see that I've completely overestimated your intelligence. I thought my previous comment about anecdotal evidence made its point, but apparently not. If you can't see what's wrong with that, then I see it will be pointless trying to have an educated discussion with you.

 

[damonX]

Just their lack of reading comprehension?

is that a serious question?

 

[Homburg]

First, Please understand that the above kind of statement should never be considered evidence.

See, this is again where we part ways.

If a scientist does the same chemical reaction 600 times, he has a pretty good chance of getting the same results on try 601 assuming the same overall circumstances. But if that result is not what he needs, he's likely to go back to the drawing, make a few modifications, and try again. Assuming the goal is attainable, this sort of practice will eventually have a solid chance of achieving success.

Me? I look at guys like Louie Simmons the same way. If he's hitting those numbers at 63, he's doing something right. Andy Bolton hit a 1003# deadlift. He's doing something right. Chuck Vogelpohl pulls a 2565# total. He's doing something right. In each case, their ability is the result of thousands of hours of training, testing, modifying, experimenting, etc. They're doing something right.

It may not be right for me. It may not be right for you. But it's still working damned good for them. And me? I take results like that seriously. If my goal is to get stronger, and it is, I'm gonna take what a guy like Louie Simmons says real damned seriously. Yeah, I'm gonna do my own research to figure out if it has a shot of working in my circumstances, but I'm still gonna take it seriously.

Or, to look another direction, are you gonna poo-poo Lee Trevino if he offers a suggestion on your golf swing?

Medicine is not science in the same way geology is science. Medicine is too damned unpredictable. It's more like science by way of meteorology. You make an educated guess on half the information that you wish you had and hope it works.

Me? I look at my totals, and the totals of the folks working with me. I look at posture, I look at how well they move, and I look at ROM. If it ain't getting better, we go back to the drawing board and changes things up a little at a time until it does work.

Now, I am not arguing that good mornings are not effective at increasing muscle strength. They are. But exercises that are useful for increasing muscle strength, are not always the best for the joints themselves. Good mornings in particular place a ridiculous amount of sheer stress on the spine. This will be no problem for the majority of the population. But...if the person has a preexisting spinal injury, then it really is not a good idea. You will have a very hard time finding any health care professional who would recomend that exercise for an injured person. They also don't have any effect on the disc fluid so I'm not sure how you were making that connection.

We may also be thinking of somewhat different movements with the good morning. In the powerlifters jargon, it is more like a stiff-legged deadlift combined with a quarter squat. You don't just bend at the hips with the knees held straight.

And, I'm gonna say this one more time, I've already mentioned many times that hard-tissue problems (like your example of a spinal injury) would contra-indicate some of this stuff. It was offered as a disclaimer. Are you ignoring that stuff, or did you just not read far enough back to catch it?

 

[Homburg]

Wow, I see that I've completely overestimated your intelligence. I thought my previous comment about anecdotal evidence made its point, but apparently not. If you can't see what's wrong with that, then I see it will be pointless trying to have an educated discussion with you.

Okay, so I was right. You are supercilious and condescending. Roger that.

You haven't been trying to have an educated conversation. You have been telling me that I'm wrong without actually taking the time to back up what you are saying. And without even taking the time to read much of what you are saying is wrong.

Anecdotal evidence does not automatically equate to "false". It is simply not a show-stopper in a discussion. You can't sit there and tell me that I did not witness what I witnessed. What I witnessed may not have a whole lot of worth in the overall discussion vis a vis proof, but it is not automatically false, and it does serve to establish the viewpoint of the person using it.

At this point, your assertion that you are a physiotherapist is as much anecdotal as anything I've said. You put forth no info here that an undergrad with a class or two in anatomy and kinesiology would not know.

 

[damonX]

And, I'm gonna say this one more time, I've already mentioned many times that hard-tissue problems (like your example of a spinal injury) would contra-indicate some of this stuff. It was offered as a disclaimer. Are you ignoring that stuff, or did you just not read far enough back to catch it?

Am I sensing little anger here?
I am not referring to fractures when I say spinal injuries, if thats what you are thinking.

As for your other comments, you've gotten way off base. Of course you can get advice from an expert in a specific field. That is far different than assuming causation from a correlation, which is what I was referring to in terms of what works for an injury

 

[damonX]

Haha, wow things really snowball on here huh? I can see how things can get misunderstood really easily.

 

[Homburg]

I'm gonna quote myself here for clarity.

And, I'm gonna say this one more time, I've already mentioned many times that hard-tissue problems (like your example of a spinal injury) would contra-indicate some of this stuff. It was offered as a disclaimer. Are you ignoring that stuff, or did you just not read far enough back to catch it?

Am I sensing little anger here?

No. No idea what you are sensing. What you are seeing is irritation because you are obviously not seeing what is being said here.

Case in point:

I am not referring to fractures when I say spinal injuries, if thats what you are thinking.

No, I wasn't just thinking fractures. I was thinking all sort of hard-tissue problems to include fractures, fused vertebrae, degeneration of tissue, etc, and, though I did not say, a host of conecctive tissue and disc-related issues. This fracture thing is an assumption on your part, and I'm not sure why you would make it.

As for your other comments, you've gotten way off base. Of course you can get advice from an expert in a specific field. That is far different than assuming causation from a correlation, which is what I was referring to in terms of what works for an injury

Meh. The causation/correlation schtick is an overused tool on the net, and is frequently poorly used. It is about as relevant these days as "ironic" and uneducated people trying to call "strawman" on virtually anything, as opposed to accurately labeling as in the case of your earlier post in regards to intelligence.

You are seeing assertions of causation where none exist.

At this point, I'll stick with my previous impression. You've offered bupkis insofar as any information goes. Just a lot of prattling on how wrong I am. If I want that, I'll go rattle JMohegan's cage.

 

[damonX]

No, I wasn't just thinking fractures. I was thinking all sort of hard-tissue problems to include fractures, fused vertebrae, degeneration of tissue, etc, and, though I did not say, a host of conecctive tissue and disc-related issues. This fracture thing is an assumption on your part, and I'm not sure why you would make it.

The reason why I would make it is because the term "hard tissue" doesn't make sense. I'm not going to get into this because I realize that your knowledge of injuries is not that great.



I really think you have been a little too defensive here. Especially since I've pretty much agreed with most of what you've said. I apologize for my comment about your intelligence. It was just that the statement that you made disapointed me, as I thought we were on our way to having a decent educated conversation. The comment you made just made you seem quite a bit less intelligent that I had previously assumed. Now you mentioned that I have not provided any real information...Well what would you like to know? I am happy to explain or discuss anything you wish. It is true, that what I've said thus far has been quite simple...because the topic we are discussing is quite simple. I can get as complicated as you like. I'm just not sure what your level is.

 

[Homburg]

The reason why I would make it is because the term "hard tissue" doesn't make sense. I'm not going to get into this because I realize that your knowledge of injuries is not that great.

I'm not using your terminology. You're not using mine. I'm using the terminology that I am used to using in my field. Hard tissue vs soft tissue. Hard tissue is bones, connective tissue, etc. Soft tissue is muscle, skin, etc. It is just a shorthand way that I am used to referring to these areas and one that most people get pretty quickly.

And, once again, you make assumptions regarding my knowledge. I may not be a doctor or a physio, but I'm a more informed than Joe Six-pack. This goes back to that "condescending" thing.

I really think you have been a little too defensive here. Especially since I've pretty much agreed with most of what you've said. I apologize for my comment about your intelligence. It was just that the statement that you made disapointed me, as I thought we were on our way to having a decent educated conversation. The comment you made just made you seem quite a bit less intelligent that I had previously assumed. Now you mentioned that I have not provided any real information...Well what would you like to know? I am happy to explain or discuss anything you wish. It is true, that what I've said thus far has been quite simple...because the topic we are discussing is quite simple. I can get as complicated as you like. I'm just not sure what your level is.

Pick your place, and explain as you will. I will ask for clarification where I need it.

So far, you've not made many solid points that need explaining. Let's see... GM's put a lot of shearing force on the spine. Yes, if done incorrectly. No need to explain that. Squats put tremendous shearing forces on the knees. Yes, if done incorrectly. Any exercise can be done poorly.

Note - There may be a terminology difference here. GM's done PL style may well not be what you are thinking of when you think GM. It's kind of like a half-squat where you lean forward more. C

Um, you also said people with spinal injuries shouldn't do many of these movements. That's pretty broad. There are "spinal injuries" and then there are "spinal INJURIES OH MY GOD". The former happen all the time and people walk around never knowing they're injured. The latter not so much. I'm sure you could explain that better, but it's not a point we disagree on.

So, yeah, pick a spot that you feel needs more discussion, and go. If I get lost, I'll raise my hand.

 

[Keroin]

If I want that, I'll go rattle JMohegan's cage.

*Snorts*

The reason why I would make it is because the term "hard tissue" doesn't make sense. I'm not going to get into this because I realize that your knowledge of injuries is not that great.



I really think you have been a little too defensive here. Especially since I've pretty much agreed with most of what you've said. I apologize for my comment about your intelligence. It was just that the statement that you made disapointed me, as I thought we were on our way to having a decent educated conversation. The comment you made just made you seem quite a bit less intelligent that I had previously assumed. Now you mentioned that I have not provided any real information...Well what would you like to know? I am happy to explain or discuss anything you wish. It is true, that what I've said thus far has been quite simple...because the topic we are discussing is quite simple. I can get as complicated as you like. I'm just not sure what your level is.

*Blows referee whistle*

damonx, I’m going to take a wild stab and assume that you are new to this forum? Yes, things are easily misunderstood here. What you may feel is a very neutral post can be read as highly insulting. I quite inadvertently pissed off a bunch of nice folks when I first showed up here…and I’m pretty darn friendly!

You and Homburg are coming from two very different POV’s, so it’s no surprise that you might accidentally misinterpret on another. However, your tone, at times does read as condescending, so you should be aware of that.

I speak as someone who has great appreciation for the various medical practitioners who have put me back together over the years and continue to keep me mobile. I have also been involved in weight training for about 24 years, including power lifting at one point, and I’m a big fan of it. I suffer from back problems and weight training helps immensely with keeping those problems at bay. However, I also rely on the advice of the health care professionals I deal with.

I consider Homburg a friend and the two of us have had several discussions about injuries and weight training. His advice has always seemed reasonable to me and I certainly have never gotten the impression that he is suggesting people with serious back problems just run out to the gym and start doing dead lifts.

If you are indeed a phsyio-therapist, (and I’m not suggesting you're not but, hey, it’s the internet), I think folks on here would be interested in hearing what you have to say about their various aches and pains but any comments that resemble insults directed at Homburg will likely not be well received. Just a head’s up.

Yes, we're a little protective of our own.

I’m curious to hear your thoughts on A.R.T., it did wonders for me.

 

[Homburg]

*Snorts*

*Blows referee whistle*

(snip)

Yes, we're a little protective of our own.

Eh, I let it turn into something more acrimonious than it needed to be.

Thanks for the post though.

I’m curious to hear your thoughts on A.R.T., it did wonders for me.

I have a buddy with some serious shoulder issues (stemming from ugly trauma sustained while in the Navy). I get with him every few weeks to do some trigger-point work (he gets some nasty sub-scapular knots), but we both know it's just palliative. Sure, it gets his ROM back almost where it should be by getting his scap mobile again, but the fact that it keeps on coming back tells me that there's badness in there. Well, that and the popcorn noises it makes when he moves it the wrong way

Anyway, I can feel some ugliness in there and I just can't get it break up. I've been trying to get him to see one of the local guys certified in A.R.T., as I hear it is the magic button with shoulders especially. (I gotta admit though, part of my motivation is simple curiosity.)

I feel like I'm extending his problem though, as the work I do relieves the pain for a week or two, and that lets him put off going back to the VA. Still, damn, I hate seeing my buddy in pain when I know that I might be able to help. I'm just hoping he takes my advice and sees a doc.

What sort of work did you have done?


NOTE: This particular friend comes over to lift here and there. Wow, do I ever seriously modify what I normally suggest to deal with his shoulder issues. Pressing with anything over dinky weight is right out, and I'm nervous about him doing horizontal pulls even though he's strong in that movement. For the most part I have him squat (carefully, because it can hammer an injured shoulder), and then he gets to do shoulder-mobility stuff with the little dumbbells. He bitches about using the 2# DB's, but I'm just not worried about that. His ego is less important than him not hurting himself with my iron.

 

[damonX]

I'm still sensing a little anger here. But oh well. I've obviously hurt your feelings.

But back to the original topic of good mornings... GMs (and stiff legged deadlifts) both put trememdous shear forces on the individual joints of the spine. This happens even when the exercise is done correctly. It's simple physics. You can look it up if you like. (and you probably should because I would never expect you to fully believe anything I say without verification) There are lots of journals articles or textbooks that will provide info like this. This isn't some crazy, out-there theory. It's basic, basic stuff.

Now, before you get all defensive again, I'm not saying that you shouldn't do them. For the majority of the population they will be fine. if the person has an injury (now when I say injury, I am referring to mechanical back pain, what many people refer to as a back sprain/strain). anything more serious than this, and the person will most likely not be able to work out at all), there is generally an instability at one or more of the individual joints.
Applying an increased shear to this joint greater increases the risk of further injury. It doesn't mean that it WILL cause further injury. The risk is just greatly increased and not suggested. Now in deadlifts, where the weight is held closer to the center of gravity the torque is greatly reduced. This should be fine. (unless there is a coexisting disc injury). Reverse extensions (I'm assuming when your torso is stabilized and you lift your legs) should be fine as well, although I've never seen any studies on them. Now that's all pretty basic, so if there's something in there that you disagree with let me know.

 

[Homburg]

And with all this, I didn't post my log from today. Shame on me.

DEADLIFT DAY, Cycle 2 Wave B

150x5
185x5
225x3
260x3
300x3
335x11

Rep calc says 458#. I don't feel like I gave that sort of effort though. My grip gave out well before my legs did.

Bridge, 1x25ct, 1x30ct
Hands were the culprit on this one too. They just started giving out.

Seated Power Cleans, 2x25 x 20# DB's

While I understand my own logic and reasoning in writing this program, and understand the worth of the idea, I am getting tired of these light-ass weights and high reps. Yeah, it's hard, but it ain't the same as tossing out a 1RM. I may have to drop a test week into the next cycle just to remember what it feels like to push for a heavy single.

(Hopefully I will talk myself out of this, and just keep going as intended.)

 

[damonX]

I’m curious to hear your thoughts on A.R.T., it did wonders for me.

Honestly...ART doesn't have a lot of physiological basis. Patients like it, because they generally feel better after having it,(although that may just be because it hurts so damn much t have it) but it doesn't really fix anything from a physiological standpoint. What bodypart did you have it on? It can help decrease muscle spasm but the idea that tissue can be "released" is not really supported.

 

[Netzach]

I may be only partially following this, but it seems to be some version of "all the hundreds of people who have experienced X Y or Z anecdotally are just insane."

 

[Homburg]

I'm still sensing a little anger here. But oh well. I've obviously hurt your feelings.

Are you fucking with me here, or what?

But back to the original topic of good mornings... GMs (and stiff legged deadlifts) both put trememdous shear forces on the individual joints of the spine. This happens even when the exercise is done correctly. It's simple physics. You can look it up if you like. (and you probably should because I would never expect you to fully believe anything I say without verification) There are lots of journals articles or textbooks that will provide info like this. This isn't some crazy, out-there theory. It's basic, basic stuff.

Terminology time.

What are you thinking of when you say "good morning"? If you are thinking of almost locked knees and bending at the hips to go as far forward as possible, I'm with you. Crazy shearing forces.

The PL version is a bit different though. The knees are more bent, are not held stiff, and the butt comes rearward. This maintains a bar path MUCH closer to on top of the feet, and thus the COG. And the torso does NOT go horizontal. If anything, it is like a half-ROM version of the classic GM. It's more like a shallow squat with too much forward lean.

Are you thinking the same movement I am? Or does my description, however butchered it might be, show a movement that is different from what you might be expecting?

And, as an aside, I don't do Stiff-Legged DL's with any more weight than is necessary to give my hamstrings a good stretch. Not a movement I am comfortable with, as too many of the people that I work with have absurdly tight hams. Its just not worth taking the time to do the movement.

Now, before you get all defensive again, I'm not saying that you shouldn't do them. For the majority of the population they will be fine. if the person has an injury (now when I say injury, I am referring to mechanical back pain, what many people refer to as a back sprain/strain). anything more serious than this, and the person will most likely not be able to work out at all), there is generally an instability at one or more of the individual joints.

Terminology time, again.

From what I understand of your explanation here, the sort of injury you are speaking of vis a vis a strain, would be a muscle issue. Like a pull or some other problem. Am I on track? A damaged/weakened muscle would lead to instability in the spinal column simply because said muscle is no longer doing its' job properly.

If this is the case, this is what I would call a soft tissue problem. Not trying to make any argument here, just trying to explain the soft/hard tissue terminology used earlier.

Applying an increased shear to this joint greater increases the risk of further injury. It doesn't mean that it WILL cause further injury. The risk is just greatly increased and not suggested. Now in deadlifts, where the weight is held closer to the center of gravity the torque is greatly reduced. This should be fine. (unless there is a coexisting disc injury).

Done properly, absolutely. This is why I call the dead a safe lift and why it is a lift that I suggest to so many people.

Reverse extensions (I'm assuming when your torso is stabilized and you lift your legs) should be fine as well, although I've never seen any studies on them. Now that's all pretty basic, so if there's something in there that you disagree with let me know.

You are on the right track for the reverse-hypers. It is a table with a hinged arm off one side. You basically lay across the tabletop, fit your feet into loops or somesuch at the arm's end, and swing your legs back. The weight is likewise on the end of the arm right near where your ankles go.

It is an interesting experience...

If it makes you feel better, the first thing I do when someone wants to train is watch them move, their gait, posture, talk injuries, look at various ROM's, etc. I've had people get frustrated with me and leave because of this. Whatever. I'm assuming some risk of liability when I help someone lift. Thus I'm going to do everything I can to identify problems before they start.

 

[damonX]

Yeah, I was thinking of the old school version of GMs. They way you described it would have a lot less risk.

From what I understand of your explanation here, the sort of injury you are speaking of vis a vis a strain, would be a muscle issue. Like a pull or some other problem. Am I on track? A damaged/weakened muscle would lead to instability in the spinal column simply because said muscle is no longer doing its' job properly.

Yeah, I thought this might cause some confusion. Technically a sprain is damage to ligament or joint capsule. A strain is damage to a muscle or tendon. All of these are classified as soft tissues though. With lower back injuries, we have no way of differentiating between the two. Even with MRI we can't tell. That's why you hear things like "mechanical low back pain". In general though, it is very unlikely that a low back injury is due to a muscle tear. It is most likely damage to the ligament or capsule. This often causes muscle spasm however so a lot of people will assume that it is the muscle damged, but the muscle pain is a symptom not a cause. Damage to a single muscle would not cause instability anyways since there are soo many different attachments to each vertebrae.

I'm rambling a bit here, but in general...most nonspecific low back pain is currently thought to be due to microdamage to the intervertebral ligaments and joint capsule. After damage, with inactivity there is a subsequent atrophy of the multifidus and transversus abdominus which then leads to further instability and thus potential for further damage. So in treating this, we want to strenghten the muscles while minimizing any strain on the individual IV joints themselves.







If this is the case, this is what I would call a soft tissue problem. Not trying to make any argument here, just trying to explain the soft/hard tissue terminology used earlier.



Done properly, absolutely. This is why I call the dead a safe lift and why it is a lift that I suggest to so many people.



You are on the right track for the reverse-hypers. It is a table with a hinged arm off one side. You basically lay across the tabletop, fit your feet into loops or somesuch at the arm's end, and swing your legs back. The weight is likewise on the end of the arm right near where your ankles go.

It is an interesting experience...

If it makes you feel better, the first thing I do when someone wants to train is watch them move, their gait, posture, talk injuries, look at various ROM's, etc. I've had people get frustrated with me and leave because of this. Whatever. I'm assuming some risk of liability when I help someone lift. Thus I'm going to do everything I can to identify problems before they start.[/QUOTE]

 

[Killer_Joe]

Question about calorie count on "lift" days:

Currently on non-lift days I take in about 3,060 calories (102 fat grams/306 carb grams/229 protein grams), on lift days I had read somewhere that you could increase your calories up to 10% for better recovery.

Any thoughts here?

On a related note: my goals are...
48" chest (currently 46.5")
16" upper arms (currently 15.25)
32" waist (currently 34")
24" thighs (currently 22.5)

I don't necessarily want to BE strong, I just want to LOOK strong!

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I don't necessarily want to BE strong, I just want to LOOK strong!

Being strong is so much better...

 

[Keroin]

Honestly...ART doesn't have a lot of physiological basis. Patients like it, because they generally feel better after having it,(although that may just be because it hurts so damn much t have it) but it doesn't really fix anything from a physiological standpoint. What bodypart did you have it on? It can help decrease muscle spasm but the idea that tissue can be "released" is not really supported.

Right shoulder and hip, the shoulder being the primary culprit, (multiple injuries). The shoulder has limited range of motion, frequent pain and makes a “cluk, cluk, cluk” noise when rotated. After ART, what I noticed most, (even after the first session), was a dramatic improvement in the range of motion. I’ve tried physio, massage therapy (with an RMT), acupuncture, (along with regular weight training, stretching, swimming, etc), you name it, ART was the only thing that decreased my pain (long term) and increased my range of motion.

Unfortunately I moved to the Kootenays and, to my knowledge, there are no ART practitioners here .

 

[Homburg]

Yeah, I was thinking of the old school version of GMs. They way you described it would have a lot less risk.

That's the only way I would do it. I figured that might be a terminology thing, thus the explanation. If I could find a good video, I'd link it, but they're either shot back-on, which doesn't give a good idea of the motion, or they're done with horrid form.

Yeah, I thought this might cause some confusion. Technically a sprain is damage to ligament or joint capsule. A strain is damage to a muscle or tendon. All of these are classified as soft tissues though. With lower back injuries, we have no way of differentiating between the two. Even with MRI we can't tell.

The MRI done on my knee was a huge waste of money, as was the surgery that followed. It aggravated me like crazy. And my PT's suggestions were actively harmful, as they were aggravating my chrondomalacia patella issues.

That's why you hear things like "mechanical low back pain". In general though, it is very unlikely that a low back injury is due to a muscle tear. It is most likely damage to the ligament or capsule. This often causes muscle spasm however so a lot of people will assume that it is the muscle damged, but the muscle pain is a symptom not a cause. Damage to a single muscle would not cause instability anyways since there are soo many different attachments to each vertebrae.

/nod

One area gets wrecked somehow, and it radiates problems to other muscles around it, and then compensation causes other muscles to get knotted up due to overload, etc. Let it go long enough and postural issues compound the problem, gait can be affected, etc.

I'm rambling a bit here, but in general...most nonspecific low back pain is currently thought to be due to microdamage to the intervertebral ligaments and joint capsule. After damage, with inactivity there is a subsequent atrophy of the multifidus and transversus abdominus which then leads to further instability and thus potential for further damage. So in treating this, we want to strenghten the muscles while minimizing any strain on the individual IV joints themselves.

This is something that bugs me. I'm aware of the atrophy issues with the TA's and the multifidus. Why does it seem like they go faster than others? Is it the comparative lack of thickness as compared to, say, the latissimus dorsi or the rhomboids? Is it a case where they are atrophying at similar rates but it affects the TA's etc more?


--

Question about calorie count on "lift" days:

Currently on non-lift days I take in about 3,060 calories (102 fat grams/306 carb grams/229 protein grams), on lift days I had read somewhere that you could increase your calories up to 10% for better recovery.

Any thoughts here?

I've read a lot on this. The big idea that keeps popping up (aside from active carb cycling, which is beyond my capacity to explain right now), is toss in a post workout drink on lift days. A good PWO shake will give you quick-digesting proteins and fast metabolising carbs and provide the extra cals needed to aid in recovery.

Dr. John Berardi has written a good bit on it (in support of his product, Surge), as have quite a number of other folks.

On a related note: my goals are...
48" chest (currently 46.5")
16" upper arms (currently 15.25)
32" waist (currently 34")
24" thighs (currently 22.5)

These are realistic goals. You should have no trouble achieving them if your diet is on and you work solidly.

I don't necessarily want to BE strong, I just want to LOOK strong!

See below:

Being strong is so much better...

She's right, y;know.

Honestly, you will get better mass, and a more balanced look overall by training to BE strong, not LOOK it. Trust me, I may be nowhere near six-pack abs, but I doubt that anyone would look at me and think weak.

My buddy AP is an even better example, even though he's lighter weight than I am. He lifts at a commercial gym these days, and there's lots of guys that look better. Yet, for his size, he's the strongest guy in the room. It shows in how he walks, how he carries himself, how the other guys tend to move out of the way, and how the ladies watch him lift.

In the old days, they called it the "Power Look". It is a body in which all the muscles work together to produce a powerful, solid build. And it comes from heavy weight and compound movements. Isolation exercises may pump up those individual parts, but it makes you look, and move, like a collection of body parts, not a sound whole.

Look up "power bodybuilding" as a concept, and take a look at old photos of John Grimek and other of his era.

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Unfortunately I moved to the Kootenays and, to my knowledge, there are no ART practitioners here L.

Last time I checked, the main ART website had a way to find practitioners local to you by zip code and area, and I think Canada was one of the country choices.

 

[Keroin]

Last time I checked, the main ART website had a way to find practitioners local to you by zip code and area, and I think Canada was one of the country choices.

DUH! It has been over two years since I last checked and YES, there is now one ART practitioner here. Hooray! And her office is walking distance from me. I'll check her out for sure.

Thanks for the nudge, H!

 

[damonX]

The MRI done on my knee was a huge waste of money, as was the surgery that followed. It aggravated me like crazy. And my PT's suggestions were actively harmful, as they were aggravating my chrondomalacia patella issues.

I'm not sure why you brought this up but I am interested in discussing it. What surgery did you have?

This is something that bugs me. I'm aware of the atrophy issues with the TA's and the multifidus. Why does it seem like they go faster than others? Is it the comparative lack of thickness as compared to, say, the latissimus dorsi or the rhomboids? Is it a case where they are atrophying at similar rates but it affects the TA's etc more?

After an injury, the activity of the deep stabilizers is decreased by a process called reflex inhibition. The activity of the more superficial lumbar muscles (erector spinae) actually increases as the patient tends to recruit the larger, stronger primary movers. The rhomboids are in the upper back so they don't funtion in spinal stability of the lumbar spine. Lattissimus Dorsi does function as a lumbar stabilizer, but it attaches to the lumbar spine via the Thoracolumbar fascia. The TLF is a broad sheet of connective tissue, and is not subject to atrophy. As you probably know, the lats function mainly as shoulder extensors so they aren't really affected by a lumbar injury.
You would see similar atrophy in all postural muscles if your injury led you to lie in bed for a long period of time though.