I need some help on how to......

[Bobmi357]

You're right, time will tell Elron, you haven't been in the situation as long as I was. But I strongly urge you to consider doing something about it BEFORE children become an issue.

Nothing throws more of a spin on a situation like yours than kids.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

All good points from everyone. There are many people out there who just can't understand why/how cheating could happen. I think these are lucky people who obviously have strong relationships with their spouses.

The very real truth is that there are lots of other people out there that do not have that. That are seeking that. That still want that companionship in their lives. Getting divorced isn't an option for some people - whatever their reasons. When I met my lover his friends and neighbors told me how happy they were that we were together. That he was such a great guy and really deserved some happiness in his life. That pretty much puts all doubt aside for me. He'snever been happier - I've never been happier and actually his wife appears to be happier cuz there's less stress at home. No - its not a perfect situation. But I don't think there's many *perfect* marriages out there either?

 

[BTK51]

All good points from everyone. There are many people out there who just can't understand why/how cheating could happen. I think these are lucky people who obviously have strong relationships with their spouses.

The very real truth is that there are lots of other people out there that do not have that. That are seeking that. That still want that companionship in their lives. Getting divorced isn't an option for some people - whatever their reasons. When I met my lover his friends and neighbors told me how happy they were that we were together. That he was such a great guy and really deserved some happiness in his life. That pretty much puts all doubt aside for me. He'snever been happier - I've never been happier and actually his wife appears to be happier cuz there's less stress at home. No - its not a perfect situation. But I don't think there's many *perfect* marriages out there either?

I don't believe that there are any PERFECT marriages and it isn't just having a strong relationship that causes someone to not understand why/how cheating can occur. I think it goes back to the vows that are exchanged between 2 people. If fidelity is professed or even inferred, then IMO cheating should not be an option, because it is the "Cheater" that is cheapening themselves. Those vows should be jointly nullified or changed in some way BEFORE they should be broken. Just the way that I look at what a vow is.

I really don't mean to be "preachy" although I recognize that is exactly how this is coming across. I believe that people cheat because they are inherently dishonest/selfish or do/did not take the vows seriously. Cheating complicates any relationship and wouldn’t it be just as easy to let the partner know that this is what is going to happen BEFORE it does. To me, this is just being fair. Just as divorce may not be an option, cheating shouldn’t be either. If you cheat then by definition, the relationship is no longer exclusive. Don’t both parties have the right to know that?

Relationships at their core (whether married or not) should be either exclusive or not exclusive and both partners should know which camp they fall in. If your wife can’t give you what you need then don’t pretend to have an exclusive relationship. If they are exclusive then they are also a “packaged deal”. IMHO it is very difficult trying to build and grow any relationship, no matter how strong it is. If one of the people has one foot in and one foot out, it is impossible.

Elron – the situation is a solution for you and only you. The other people involved are not all willing participants and that makes this fraud. I’m not saying that you should stay or leave, only you can decide that. Have your cake and eat it too (literally & figuratively) as long as it is above board. Let her know that this is something that you have to have and she’s not giving it to you. If your wife can’t handle that then a decision has to be made.

Relationships change, they have to. If this has changed to an unworkable situation that cannot be rectified and you have given up on this, then the correct thing to do is end it before more damage is done. Bobmi is absolutely right on he mark about children because a pregnancy of either partner could make a bad situation much, much worse. You say that doesn’t make a difference but of course it does. There are more people that are going to be negatively affected. If it is your wife that gets pregnant then adding pregnancy and eventually a child would only be harder (and more unfair) for her. And then, what about the child? Have some compassion.

My answer to your original question “can and how do you love both” is that you can’t. You admit that it is not fair to your wife but for us not to worry about that. Me thinks that maybe this is the key bit of information as to what you should do. If you don’t care for your wife any longer – get out! Why would you stay? Try and keep her friendship if that’s what you like/love about your relationship with her. The hurt caused by leaving in the short run will be much less than carrying this on forever.

I’ll get off my soapbox now.

 

[Bobmi357]

I'm sorry, but I reject the notion that cheaters are inherently dishonest/selfish.

I don't believe in cheating, hell I won't even cyber, but to catagorize a group of people like that is just wrong. I prefer to think they've made a mistake. Its not dishonest to make a mistake. It might be stupid of them, it may be thoughtless of them, but no one wakes up saying "Today I'm going to cheat on my spouse for the first time and damn the consequences...". I'll bet a majority of the people that have fallen off the fidelity bandwagon probably thought to themselves "Oh shit, I screwed the poochie with this one!"

Any dishonesty comes into play afterwards. Continuing the affair is dishonest. Falling off the wagon once is a stupid mistake but not in my humble opinion, dishonest.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

The fidelity bandwagon - that's good! All I know is that it IS hard to sit here and defend adultery. But people make bad decisions all the time. People do the wrong thing all the time. And just sometimes it IS more important to be in the arms of someone you love than to adhere to some vows you made years ago under very different circumstances.

I know all you 'happily marrieds' get mad/upset at us 'adulterers' (well I'm not technically an adulterer - my lover is) But you could well be saying "there but for the grace of god go I". I personally think the very idea of marriage is crazy - on the other hand I have 2 daughters who will probably be getting married in the next few years. So I just try to understand.

 

[BTK51]

There But For The grace Of God...

.. IS appropo for me. I'm no person to categorize or pass judgement on anyone for mistakes. I've made a ton of them and still do. I've had opportunities to cheat and obviously been tempted, but thankfully, made the right decision at the time. It is the on-going affair or habitual one-time cheater that I was referring to.

I know things change constantly in any relationship. There are peaks and valleys and the hardest thing to do is to sustain the energy and effort to get started back up that hill when you're in the valley. I know the Peak's are worth the anquish and effort so for that standpointm I am a "happily married."

I was just trying to bring out that if it gets to that point, looking to an affair for a solution (and continuing to do it) is the part that is selfish, no matter what spin is put on it.

 

[warrior queen]

Re: There But For The grace Of God...

.. IS appropo for me. I'm no person to categorize or pass judgement on anyone for mistakes. I've made a ton of them and still do. I've had opportunities to cheat and obviously been tempted, but thankfully, made the right decision at the time. It is the on-going affair or habitual one-time cheater that I was referring to.

you are categorising simply by refering to the decision you made as the 'right' one.
by insinuating that everyone who cheats has made the 'wrong' choice/decision, you label us as inferior in some moral/fundamental way.
that's judgemental, whichever way you phrase it.

(sorry, edited to add - what you should have said, to avoid judging, is that you made the 'right decision for YOU'.)

I know things change constantly in any relationship. There are peaks and valleys and the hardest thing to do is to sustain the energy and effort to get started back up that hill when you're in the valley. I know the Peak's are worth the anquish and effort so for that standpointm I am a "happily married."

I was just trying to bring out that if it gets to that point, looking to an affair for a solution (and continuing to do it) is the part that is selfish, no matter what spin is put on it.

and i would also like to point out, that in 99.9% of cases of infidelity, the person/people involved did not go 'looking to an affair for a solution'.
this is not some conscious choice i made!
this happened to me at a time when i had been feeling extremely vulnerable and unloved, and i didn't sit there with this other guy and say to myself "girl - it's time to be unfaithful!"
he touched me, a hand on my hand, and all the longing and want and need for physical closeness just came rushing to the surface, and the next thing i knew, i had slept with him.

and you know what?

not once during that whole time with the other man did i feel even a sliver of regret or shame, and i still don't.
he saved me, because by being with him, i finally came to learn a few basic truths about who i was, and what i could/could not live with.

 

[BTK51]

Re: Re: There But For The grace Of God...

you are categorising simply by refering to the decision you made as the 'right' one.
by insinuating that everyone who cheats has made the 'wrong' choice/decision, you label us as inferior in some moral/fundamental way.
that's judgemental, whichever way you phrase it.

(sorry, edited to add - what you should have said, to avoid judging, is that you made the 'right decision for YOU'.)

You are correct - I made the right decision "FOR ME" because of the way it turned out. If I had gone the other way, It would have been wrong "For Me". I made that decision because I followed my beliefs at the time instead of how I felt. It was a daqngerous time for me as well.

I am not claiming moral superiority in any way (reference my "there but for the grace of God" header). I have come to feel that the "right thing" is to be honest and end the relationship first so that there is no infedelity. I have seen a lot of people severely hurt from infedelity and have never seen any good come from it.

Stuff happens, mistakes are made, and no one is perfect. Every situation is different and I have no right, nor talent, nor desire to "pass judgement". What I gave was opinion (as per my IMHO & IMO inserts). Sorry if it came across wrong.

Warrior, I don't know your circumstances either, so I assure you that I am not passing judgement on your actions. You came to realize what you needed and I assume what you needed to do. Elron is looking for a way to perpetuate deciet and IMHO, repeat IMHO believe that IS wrong. I do not see how deceiving a spouse and making a concious decision to continue to do so is the right thing to do, I just don"t.

 

[warrior queen]

Re: Re: Re: There But For The grace Of God...

You are correct - I made the right decision "FOR ME" because of the way it turned out. If I had gone the other way, It would have been wrong "For Me". I made that decision because I followed my beliefs at the time instead of how I felt. It was a daqngerous time for me as well.

I am not claiming moral superiority in any way (reference my "there but for the grace of God" header). I have come to feel that the "right thing" is to be honest and end the relationship first so that there is no infedelity. I have seen a lot of people severely hurt from infedelity and have never seen any good come from it.

Stuff happens, mistakes are made, and no one is perfect. Every situation is different and I have no right, nor talent, nor desire to "pass judgement". What I gave was opinion (as per my IMHO & IMO inserts). Sorry if it came across wrong.

Warrior, I don't know your circumstances either, so I assure you that I am not passing judgement on your actions. You came to realize what you needed and I assume what you needed to do. Elron is looking for a way to perpetuate deciet and IMHO, repeat IMHO believe that IS wrong. I do not see how deceiving a spouse and making a concious decision to continue to do so is the right thing to do, I just don"t.

you're right.
you can't see how Elron can do this.
but that's because YOU have a moral code that applies to YOU.

he might have a different one.
i have a different one.
each person has a level that they are willing to go to - and if it's not the same as other peoples, well hey, that's the way humans are.
that's why some people can have open marriages, some people are polygamous, some people are polyamorous, some people are bisexual, some are homosexual.
and that's why there will always be people who simply cannot understand why anyone can be any one of those things.

we don't have to understand why people are different - we just have to accept that they are.

 

[Guest]

 

[BTK51]

Re: Re: Re: Re: There But For The grace Of God...

You're right.
that's why some people can have open marriages, some people are polygamous, some people are polyamorous, some people are bisexual, some are homosexual.
and that's why there will always be people who simply cannot understand why anyone can be any one of those things.

we don't have to understand why people are different - we just have to accept that they are.

No argument there. The above are all different from Elron's situation. Open Marriages, polygamy, polyamorous, bisexual and homosexual are lifestyle choices and to each his own. I accept all that and embrace those differences even if some are not for me and some I don't understand fully. For example, IMO if polygamy is done with consent, then there is nothing wrong with that. If it is non-consetual then there is.

Elron says that his wife won't let him go elsewhere for sex, intamacy, etc. He implied to me that he is leading her to beleive the he is faithful or in other words lying to his wife. That is the difference here. Let her know what he is doing, leave her or try and work it out. Just be honest!

If the sum of the parts of the relationship is not enough for Elron then end it or work on it. As said earlier, it is a package deal and there are TWO people involved here. Can doing what works for one person at the expense of the other be justifiable? If he wants to love two people and "make it work" then he needs to let the other spouses in on his little secret. If he doesn't care about his wife's feelings I have to ask what kind of marriage is that? Would you want a relationship with someone who could care less about your feelings on any important topic. If there is a fault here on my part, maybe I'm wrong thinking that intamacy is an integral part of any relationship.

 

[warrior queen]

honesty is a wonderful thing.
but not everyone has the same level of that either.

yes, i agree that being dishonest is not the ideal way....
but i also see that sometimes other people make the choice to be dishonest, and it is not my place to tell them what i think is the right way to go.
if they ask for my opinion, i will give it, but without telling them i think what they're doing is wrong.
that's a conclusion i allow each person to reach by themselves in their own way and time.
and if they never think they're wrong, well that's fine too.
they are the ones who have to live with what they're doing.

and i know some are going to come in here and say 'but what about the person who's being lied to?'
to be perfectly honest here, IMO if they are so damn clueless that they can't see how their own actions may have contributed to the person who's cheating/lying behaviour, then they shouldn't have pretended to know enough to be in a long term, monogamous relationship in the first place - if the spouse wasn't prepared to work on all aspects of the relationship, isn't that a form of deceit also? shouldn't that be said up-front before a marriage takes place? or when problems arise, shouldn't each person be made to say just how far they'll go to work things out?

it takes 2 to make it work, and it also takes 2 to fuck it up.

 

[smoke34]

explain yourself to your wife

Tendril is correct. You do have to explain yourself to your wife. Your lover obviously already knows (or I hope she does) what the situation is. I know, from personal experience how difficult it is. My situation is a little different, but the bottom line is that you cannot give either of them anything until you give both of them the truth. You may be suprised at the results. I reached the decision to tell my wife just a short, very short time ago...but the only alternative was to lose the woman who has become so important to me..or to not tell the wife, and cheat my lover by not being able to be free and give all I can to that relationship. So quit sitting on the fence....either give up the lover, or at least give your wife the opportunity to decide if she can accept the situation ..
Just the humbe opinion of one who is traveling this same road .

Ed

You have to explain yourself at some point to your wife, why not do it now?

 

[SexyChele]

Well, I've never been married, but I have been "the other woman." Yeah, it was at a time in my life when I was very vulnerable, and the man I was with was feeling unloved and underappreciated. We had known each other before he married and had met for coffee and to simply "catch up." Neither one of us expected to go to bed. But it happened.

Or did it?

Fact is, while I was still attracted to this man, and he to me, I knew very well what the hell I was doing when I invited him home and started getting undressed. I knew he was married. I knew I was vulnerable. I had no excuse. Neither did he. Were we selfish? Hell yes, we both were. Yeah, he gave me the ol' "she changed after we were married," "she never wants sex anymore," "she puts more effort into other people." The real story? After marriage they had a mortgage to worry about, as well as car payments, increased family obligations, etc, and she was no longer the carefree young woman she was when single. She never wanted sex, because she didn't want it as often as he wanted it (they did have sex, however), yet because of the demands of working full time, taking care of the house, and tending children she was often too tired to be sexy. As well, he stayed at the job long hours and rarely helped out around the house. (He did a room addition and felt that should have satisfied any obligation he had to "the house.") As to the "other people"? They were his kids.

Eventually, his wife found out about the affair. Of course, having him keep my picture in his truck, then telling her to take it to the car wash did cause me to think. She called me, tried to plead, but I was wrapped up in his lies. Selfish? Hell yeah. Both he and I. When she called one night and put his 4 year old son on the phone to ask where his daddy was, that was the final straw. My heart broke for this woman. When I confronted him to end the affair, what was his response? He railed against her for using their child and demanded she call me and apologize. It sickened me. If he would do that to her, what would he do to me?

Cheating involves lying. Lying hurts. And it also causes one to doubt the trueness of another person. It took me years to realize that just because I was involved with this man I wasn't an evil person. However, it did teach me that relationships are too precious to jeopardize for the sake of selfish satisfaction.

I agree with Bobmi. If you are unhappy in your relationship then you have a choice to make. Unless your spouse can accept a polyamorous relationship, you need to end it or stick it out. Of course, there are those like the man I was with who was hoping his wife would find out. Her jealousy in some very strange way "proved" to him that she still loved him. Sad. Her pain proved her love. What a schmuck.

Oh, and after I broke off the relationship? He just had to call less than a month later to tell me I had been "replaced." Interesting. Once a cheater, always one, in most cases.

I would say you need to sit down and truly figure out what you want. Then follow through. Yeah, things are going to be painful now, more so than if you'd rejected the temptation from the beginning. But how willing are you to deal with the ultimate pain of your wife finding out? Unless you are like the man I was with and are hoping that by her finding out she will suddenly give in to your sexual demands?

 

[Guest]

 

[voxovixen]

[No message]

 

[Bobmi357]

Voxovixen,
Abuse comes in many forms, both mental and physical. Your husband may believe he can "shame" you into losing weight, or perhaps he's just an insenstitive asshole. In my book, what you describe falls under the mental abuse category, no matter what his motives are.

Quite honestly I'd say if you can't get him to recognize the damage he's caused and to start to fix it, then its time to get out of that relationship.

It is unfair in the extreme to expect a spouse to remain as they were when you first dated them. Job pressures, children, health problems etc, all force us to change. Expecting your spouse to remain sevlte and sexy like he/she was when he/she was 20 is unfair to him/her.

I feel for you voxovixen. My ex played similar mindgames with me to the point where I firmly believed I was incapable of pleasing a woman. It wasn't until I left her that I found out that I wasn't the one with the problem, she was.....

 

[burrish]

This is a very interesting thread and I have paid very careful attention to it. Because my hubby cheated on me, and because of it I am in therapy. So it is very interesting to learn what goes on in the minds of a cheater. I have told hubby from day one if there is a problem in our relationship to talk with me about it first, if I don’t try to work things out then go on to the next step because at that point the marriage would be over anyway, but he never gave me an option to fix what was wrong in our marriage before he slept with my best friend. Since then we have talked a lot about everyday things and about fixing the marriage. For right now things seem to be back on track and working itself out, now down the road I can’t say. But from the innocent wife I have been very hurt, betrayed and felt let down, because he felt he had to go to someone else to satisfy him instead of coming to me first and saying there was a problem or that he was thinking about other people. So in conclusion if you and her have sat down and went over those things and she doesn’t want to fix the problem fine do what you want, but if you didn’t even give her a chance, then shame on you, and I think less of anyone who does that without trying to fix the problem first.

 

[voxovixen]

[No message]

 

[burrish]

voxovixen that is exactly what my hubby said to me when it all came out. that i am beautliful and that he wants to spend the rest of his life with me and that he is sorry it happened and that it will never happen again. he said he did it in the first place because i wasn't having sex enough or wasn't being more open minded and trying new things. we have come along way since it all happend but i think about it hourly and always wonder what he is doing or who he is talking to and if he is sincere and telling me the truth. how am i suppose to believe he really feels that way about me after what he did to me and because he lied. but anyway i just wanted to let you know i know what you are going thru because i am to right now. and if you ever need someone to talk with just pm me

 

[Elron]

So many thoughts from so many minds, yet in the end the only one that matters is mine.

Burrish, I have talked long and hard with her, she tries for a time and then forgets and we are back where we started. Don't get me wrong there are things that I can do better and I keep track of them and always try to be better, I don't forget them. So to answer you yes I did give her a chance, several.

voxovixen, I know exactly what you are saying, if you do not feel that the person you have choosen, does not desire you. How can you feel good about yourself? In the end isn't that what we all are looking for, just a touch of happiness.

Bobmi357, stop talking you are always on the right track and it's annoying, but very, very much appreciated

SexyChele, I have made a decision and maybe not the right one, maybe it is, but I have made one.

smoke34, Sitting on the fence, huh. Fair enough, but you are right , it is not fair to anyone to continue down this path. On the other hand what about life is really ever fair anyway?

warrior queen, you ROCK You are right though it does take two for all of it. And if two isn't enough, then there really should be only one.

BTK51, you piss me off. First off don't speak my thoughts for me. I can do that myself. Next, you are right honest is a very good thing to be. Just how long would you work on it? I have spent four years, is that enough time? Who knows, not me that's for sure. Remember though the only thing you know about me is what I tell you and with that in my mind do you really believe that I am as you so gracously phrased, trying to find a way to perpetuate deciet. Well who knows maybe I am, but if you like a little honesty, here it is. What I am trying to do more than anything is to understand just how I got to this point and find the best possible way for all involved to continue to live with all that has happened. If that be ending it with the lover, leaving the wife, or keeping both, who knows. Right or wrong very seldom has any place in matters of the heart. And question that statement all you want. But do take a minute and think about it.

crazybbwgirl, you ROCK also. Not for defending adultry, but because you know what it means to long for someone to hold you or give you a kiss when you walk in the door. Maybe even a simple phone call in the middle of the day just to say I love you. These are the things that start it all.

And now we are back to me, well we skipped bob a couple times, but that's okay he'll get over it. First and foremost thank you all, even the those that piss me off. You all took a moment to share and that is pretty cool if you stop and think about it.

As for me and my decision, well I have decided to just leave them all, I am headed for old mexico in the morning wish me luck. No just kidding, wouldn't that just be the biggest cop out ever. Actually everyone I have decided nothing at all, we did. I talked with my lover and she agrees that we both need to tell the truth to our spouses and see what happens. We agreed to hold onto what we have as much as we can but we can not continue as we are until we both face the truth. Score one for honesty. But we did have a passionate going away. Score one for aldultry. My wife and I are going away this weekend and that is when it will all come to an end or maybe a begining, who knows. Not me that's for sure. I do know this though if anyone who reads this and sees themselves headed down this road, do what bob did. Leave before it's too late, you will save yourselves hours of thinking. You may loose out on a wonderful and passoinate love affair, but hell you didn't have that anyway so deal with it, as I should have.

I guess in the end time will tell, I think though for the first time in a very long time I know exactly who I am. I am me, nothing more, nothing less. Just a man that wants to be loved the way he can love. That's all.

 

[tendril]

Good luck Elron.

 

[wicked woman]

Takes a big man Elron....good luck hon....hope things work out for the best...regardless of what that 'best' might be.

 

[Bobmi357]

Bobmi357, stop talking you are always on the right track and it's annoying, but very, very much appreciated

Awwwww.... but this is one of the only posts that reflect the human condition. Therefore makes for a good thread. I'm tired of the endless 19yr olds asking is it ok to pump my penis into a light socket, or the endless repeating questions about anal sex with donkeys....

OK OK, I'll go crawl over into my corner and wait until someone else creates a thought provoking thread.

I'm glad you're going to tell your wife elron, but I'd also caution that what you expect her reaction to be and what her reaction is, may be two drastically different things. I wish you luck, and good fortune.

ONCE MORE INTO THE BREECH!!!

 

[Jaybird3]

El, make sure to remove all breakables and throwables and practise your ducking this week.

I wish you well, I hope you get what you want. I hope that you find what you are looking for.

The thing with telling her is that while you might be out on your ear, in the long run either way it goes will be emotionally and mentally better for you.

Good luck and you know how to reach me.