I need some help on how to......

[crazybbwgirl]

I agree with Bob that this has been one of the most thought provoking threads around lately. It has made me think hard about my situation too. I hate that - but its good to do. Elron (I keep wanting to call you Enron!) best of luck dude. I'm not sure if coming clean is the right path - but you've got to do something. Me - I think I'll settle for sitting the fence - at least for now. Let us know how you're doing......

 

[sheath]

For all those who think it is just about sex and nothing more, it is not. It is never being touched, never being held, and never being loved. The love is there and you know it, sometimes when you look just right you catch a glimpse of it. You talk about it and you are told that it is there and you believe it. You have to believe it, that is all that is really left the hope and belief that it is there. And yet after all the talking and all the doing it still is not present. Ask yourselves what you would do? Would you hold out until the end of time, knowing that you are giving up all that you could have. Or would take an opportunity to feel that love once more, just one more time before the end.

I know what I did and I would do it again. I love both the women in my life, very much and I will always love them. Both of them will be hurt by me and that kills me. I have no desire to hurt anyone at all, I never have and I never will. All I ever wanted was to be loved the way I can love, totally and completely. Yet even to cuddle with my wife is an issue and yes I have talked with her about that also. I read tons on how to help your wife and how to be a better husband and how to do this and how to do that. I did try and I made an effort, now don't get me wrong I am not trying to justify any of this, in the end it is still wrong. Well wrong with what we are told is right, but maybe not with what all of us believe. Who knows really, we all are faced with choices and decisions we must make, some of us will make the right ones and some of us won't, that is the nature of life learning, who and what we are and being happy with that when the time comes.

I know I have failed at marriage, if it was a test I blew it, plain and simple. But I have not failed at love and at sharing, these I do well. I have failed at protecting those I love from unneeded pain.
Yet it was out of love that this protection failed. So is it really a failure or is it a sacrifice? That question I can not even attempt to answer. I can only be me, unfortunately, a man who is loved and loves. A man who needs to be held and wishes to hold. That is all.

Thank you though, all of you. Understanding is a comodotity in todays world and everyone here seems to have some of it in one form or another.

Elron

To be honest, I avoided this thread at first. I saw what it was about, backed out of it and decided not to respond, but it weighed on my mind. And this post did it for me.

I read your words and heard the echo of my ex-lover. For two years, I was involved with a married man. He loved his wife, without question. I saw it in him so often when he spoke of her. Yet he fell in love with me too, and he loved me in a far different way than he loved her. The love was real, and strong, and it tore him apart.

He came to me not because of the sex, but because of the lack of intimacy, which are two totally different things. He craved the long talks, the holding hands, the little glances in a crowd that mean so much. He craved understanding and compassion. He craved the little things that so often deteriorate in a marriage. He got those things from me. The sex just naturally followed. We were friends first, and never expected to turn into lovers.

I guess my point is not to give you advice, but to say that I understand. You have been caught up in something you didn't expect. It doesn't sound like you went looking for an affair, or that you had intentions of cheating...things just change so quickly when we are lacking something, and that is what happened to you. And before you realized what was happening, you were already in too deep to ever come out without scars.

The affair taught me that no matter what, I have to be able to live with my decisions. I have to face myself in the mirror, and I have to face him. And one day, I did have to face his wife. I can never say that I didn't feel guilt, regret, or remorse. Sometimes the pain of it all was overwhelming. But in the end, it took all three of us to make it happen, and we own equal shares in the stock of mistakes.

Look at this as a learning experience, a stepping stone to becoming more than you once were. I believe it's important to find a lesson in everything. You are the only one who can decide what your particular lesson is.

I wish you all the best, Elron. My PM box is always open.

S.

 

[midwestyankee]

Damn.

Reading this thread has been one of my most emotional experiences since I started following the Lit boards. I teared up at some of the personal and painful stories some of you told. I heard echoes of my own life (thank god some of them are like the ghost of Christmas yet to come) and literally shivered as I read.

Elron, when I first started reading I thought you were a selfish SOB who merely wanted the rationalization of affirming posts from other adulterers to help you continue in your multi-amorous activities. But it looks like you have grown a little here through the exercise of starting this thread and responding to the various posts thoughtfully and honestly. Good for you. Growth is absolutely necessary to living a good life. And I wish you well in your effort this weekend to get the truth out with your wife. It won't be easy; it may even be exceedingly painful. But you're doing it and that's what matters.

Gentlemen and ladies who have shared your stories in hopes of helping Elron: I applaud you and cry for those of you who shared your pain so eloquently and so freely (even if it took a little wine). As much as I try, I don't know that I could give so freely or so fully. I admire you all.

This is what community is all about.

 

[Limbhugger]

You know, I can be the most tolerant accepting guy in the world on some issues and then be the most staunch prick on others.

I didn't want to read this thread because I just knew that it would end up with me not being able to resist my need to express life according to me. And life according to me rarely fits in it seems.

Obviously this is a sex-oriented board so stories and fantasies of spouses having extra-marital relations are so common they're tame. Hell I've written them myself. But in all my stories, cheating in the sense of dishonesty is never conveyed.

Oh sure you can disect an issue until you're blue in the face and cloudy the waters with whatever you want. Is cam-to-cam cheating? Is the fantasy of another cheating in the soul? yadda, yadda.

Here's the part where,as a relatively new member, I reckon I'm gonna alienate a lot of folks. Let me preface this by saying that I can be blunt as hell, often don't know what the hell I am talking about, and am opionated as can be. Take what I say and do with it what you will. Hell, my opinion shouldn't count that much anyway.

Wearing man-sized boots doesn't make you a man.

Elron, you're a coward. What's more you are a user. You have manipulated and twisted your own sense of morality to fit your own twisted sense of security.

Your posts drip with seeming guilt and deep contimplation over this extrardinarliy difficult and emotionally torrmenting situation you find yourself in. Bullshit. First and foremost the truth is, deep inside, you're getting off on the attention you're getting over this. With them and here. You may not be aware of it, but you are.

But hidden inside your posts are all these references about what you need and how hard this for you and blah, blah, blah. "I" appears a helluva lot in your posts that's for sure.

I'm not going to go into my personal life in detail but I can assure you you would have to drag your ass way down to be in the places my wife and I have. I met her when I was 17, at 19 I committed my life to her, more than 15 years of marriage and we're still standing. We've had some seriously bad times and she has had to deal with far more than her share of hurt and pain and confusion. Times when I couldn't be sure that tomorrow would ever come. Times when I would thrash and scream in my sleep. Times when all my anger funneled directly at her. Times when I didn't know how to breathe.

But she stayed, and it seems by today's standards most women wouldn't have. She stayed and she cared for me. And in the process I cared for her. She too, has her scars and demons, we work through them together.

Two things I have never done: cheated on her or hit her.

My wife is not an affectionate person. She does not hug and kiss and cuddle and cradle naturally. And, admit it or not male readers, this is extremely important to us. So I can empathize with what you're saying in this regard Elron. We have had many arguments over this very fact. Seems ironic the man upset about cuddling doesn't it? But it is real and it is true. So, we work on it.

I don't put my boots away, I always leave the seat up, and I'm a bitch to talk to because I always think people over-complicate things and should just see the world the way I do. So we work on it.

We're getting older now, my wife and I (she's 7yrs my senior). Life is still incredibly stressful. Raising two daughters, paying bills, etc. And we still have a long way to go on a lot of our "issues." (She doesn't know it but I don't think I'm ever gonna put my boots away...lol) But at the root of our relationship is one thing; love.

I love my wife, I need my wife. I would be incomplete without my wife. I am as open and honest and upfront as I possibly can be with her.

If I ever felt that I was going to actually cheat on her, I would leave her. She would deserve better than what I would be able to give. I would be the one with the problem, not her. No matter what she did or didn't do. Even if the marriage was all wrong (which it obviously wasn't and presented as a hypothetical) and never should have happened in the first place. I gave my word. I made a pledge. I swore an oath. I gave another person the belief that I would do everything in my power to protect and love them. I guess nowadays that doesn't mean much and I'm considered old fashioned. But where I come from a man is only as good as his word. Period.

So the real question is Elron, are you man enough to live up to yourself? It is you Elron who is the wrong one in this entire scenario. Not your wife and not your cheating mistress.

You didn't fail your marriage Elron, you failed yourself. You profess to love these women. I don't believe you. Love isn't comfort and security and wonderment and sure as hell isn't sex. Love is humbling. Learn to be humble Elron. That would be my advice.

Now that I have rambled and raved, I want to say, I hope everthing works out for you and those around you Elron. I really do. I've cast a lot of stones here but I reckon that is my nature. It doesn't mean you are not a good person at heart and I hope that makes sense. All of us (even my self-righteous arrogant ass) needs a serious kick in the ass once in awhile.

While I don't feel sorry for you I do hope you find happiness. Real and true happiness. And that starts with being honest with yourself and then having the courage to confront it.

Okay gang, have at it. I knew I shouldn't have started typing...

 

[wicked woman]

Okay gang, have at it. I knew I shouldn't have started typing...

Actually I thought your post was quite touching and real.

 

[Limbhugger]

Thank you WW, that is all I meant it to be.

 

[Jaybird3]

SO what are you doing posting on a porn site message board?

You see, I was your wife at one time. You know what I figured out. That the man that I was married to wasn't worth my time and effort eventually.

He didn't satisfy me, he was too busy dealing with "issues". Hell in all honesty, he didn't have a clue as to who I really was. I became introspective.

I unbecame affectionate, I unbecame cuddly and snuggly. All because he didn't care. So I got to the point that I didn't care.
Sex went straight to hell in handbasket for me.

But, like Elron, it was all my fault in some peoples eyes. They all think differently now. Why, because I am again happy. The way that I got happy was thru doing what was right for me and giving the asshole the boot.

Now I don't have to worry about if HE put HIS BOOTS away or not.

 

[Limbhugger]

Not sure what posting at a porn site has to do with anything. I never sex wasn't essential and wasn't a wonderful exploration. I just said it wasn't love. My wife posts here too, we do it because we enjoy it. Seems pretty simple to me.

As for being my wife. No, you were never "my" wife.

I hate to tell all the jaded folks out there, but real, true, hard-work love, really does exist.

Seriously, I don't care what you do. I was just sharing my view from here. Take it or leave it.

 

[Jaybird3]

So, since you opened the door, would you live in a sexless marriage, without the touch of someone you loved?

 

[warrior queen]

Not sure what posting at a porn site has to do with anything. I never sex wasn't essential and wasn't a wonderful exploration. I just said it wasn't love. My wife posts here too, we do it because we enjoy it. Seems pretty simple to me.

As for being my wife. No, you were never "my" wife.

I hate to tell all the jaded folks out there, but real, true, hard-work love, really does exist.

Seriously, I don't care what you do. I was just sharing my view from here. Take it or leave it.

you're right in your first post - you're blunt and opinionated, and while what you are saying may apply really well to your own situation, you have the audacity to try and impose your own sense of morality onto another person.

Elron doesn't need people like you telling him he's wrong...

he needs calm, sensible people who can make him see other sides to his situation, so that HE can try and come to a resolution in HIS OWN WAY.

oh, and just for the record, i'd hate to be your wife - you sound like a prize jerk.

 

[Limbhugger]

Jaybird.

I am really not on opposite sides with you. I completely understand what you're trying to make me realize. I just get the impression that in this instance (and as I already said IT IS MY OPINION) that that isn't exactly what is going on.

I get from what he has posted that while he may profess all this turmoil the truth is, he's enjoying himself and his situation. That is just my read on it.

Warrior Queen,

Thank you for your response. And thank you for pointing out what I already did. I thought I was quite clear in saying that I was just laying out what I thought and you could take it or leave it.

I didn't try to impose my own sense of morality on anyone. I just called it as I saw it. I gave an opinion, that is still allowed right? Especially when someone asks for it right?

I find it interesting that you know better than I what Elron needs. You lash out at me for my sharing but yet are quick to assert your form of feedback and advice and condemn me for my point of view.

I think I was very up front and honest about dismissing anything I said. Just wondering how you are so sure what Elron needs and that my words are not it?

 

[Limbhugger]

A prize jerk? Wow is that like something you can win at the fair? Honey, I'm a prize now!

 

[Jaybird3]

And just sometimes, a post doesn't say it all. Some people are so quick to give their opinions as to another person's situation before they take the time to ask the person just what it was that was meant by the way that they say something.

Or they fail to get the whole story and sometimes some of it can't be put in a post. I know that I have had that problem before. I leave the things that I think won't matter, but in reality they matter alot because they help someone else understand MY situation a lot clearer.

 

[Bobmi357]

He came to me not because of the sex, but because of the lack of intimacy, which are two totally different things. He craved the long talks, the holding hands, the little glances in a crowd that mean so much. He craved understanding and compassion. He craved the little things that so often deteriorate in a marriage. He got those things from me. The sex just naturally followed. We were friends first, and never expected to turn into lovers.

I have to wonder if this isn't a major factor in a lot of marital problems these days. A lot of therapists seem to confuse intimacy with sex, when in fact, they are two different things.

When I left my ex I made a promise to myself that I would spend my life alone rather than end up with someone that wouldn't give me a hug now and then. I grew up in an evironment where my family was not touchy feely. Hugs were very few and very far between. My parents, both WWII vets, were not very demonstrative of their love in front of us kids, or even to us kids. But I knew as I left my first marriage that this was exactly what I wanted. I wanted someone that wouldn't mind if I gave her a hug, or just threw an arm over her in the bed as we slept.

Don't get me wrong, the sex was important to me also, but even more important to me was someone that wanted me around, wanted to hold and be held.

Finally I'll have to say I don't know how anyone can say they "still love" their spouse when the marriage is missing something as fundamental as human intimacy. Perhaps they are stronger than I am, but I don't know whether I should admire such people, or pity them.

 

[Jaybird3]

Pity, Bob, pity them. It is really sad when it happens, sadder to watch, and sadder still to go thru it, then get into a relationship that has it and realize what you have been missing all those years. I was married for 15 years and there was only intimacy for about the first 2.

 

[Bobmi357]

Pity, Bob, pity them. It is really sad when it happens, sadder to watch, and sadder still to go thru it, then get into a relationship that has it and realize what you have been missing all those years. I was married for 15 years and there was only intimacy for about the first 2.

Yeah, pity is probably a suitable feeling here.

I have to admit I probably spent the first year of my second marriage walking around with a goofy shit eating grin on my face. It was like being shown a chocolate cake and then being told "Yes, you can have as much as you want".

Now 10 yrs later and I STILL love chocolate cake!

 

[FFhotwife]

Limbhugger....

I loved your long reply!!!! Bravo!! Very well said. It is funny what people say to make what they do or are doing okay and justified (and everyone else has a problem). I guess that is what they do in their relationships. If there is that much missing, leave (or try and fix it and then leave). It is that easy. My husband and I have been with each other since we were 18 and 20. 16 years later (and our share of major problems, money, 3 kids, a move that took us accross the country and away from family, etc.) we are still madly in love and have a totally honest relationship (yes, he knows I belong to lit, too.). See, relationships like ours are out there, they just take a lot of hard work and committment to one another. Thank you for posting, I don't feel so alone anymore! lol.

 

[Jaybird3]

No it isn't that easy. I wish that it had been. I would suggest to every married person, that you check your state laws on divorce law if your spouse is ever injured or if your spouse is declared mentally disabled.

Believe me, it isn't that easy.

 

[Elron]

Limbhugger, fair enough. Now it's my turn. Don't presume that you know enough about me to call me a coward. And if you would like to discuss in more detail as to how cowardly I may be please feel free to pm me. Interseting you noticed all the I's in my post since in fact this post is about me, although if it works better for you I could write in third person? I am also curious as to how it is that you know exactly what my inner thoughts are? I wasn't aware of any new developement that allowed a person to read another's thoughts through a mere bbs post.

Twelve years ago my thoughts mirrored yours, and you are right more than anything I failed myself. I did make a promise and give my word and I went back on it. Not much more to say about that.

I am curious though as to your defintion of love, it almost seems to me that you have twisted it to fit your needs. Love is humbling true, but it is all those other things also.

And thanks, at heart we are all good poeple, still doesn't mean we always do the right thing. Which is what started this whole fucking mess. I am inclined to agree with you, when I reached the point to make the choice to cheat I should have just stood up and walked out. I didn't and now I have to deal with it. You really aren't saying anything I haven't thought of. You are just saying it like a prick. That's not an all bad thing either, it is what it is. But I really have no idea how you can say I am enjoying this? Yep, I just woke up one morning and came up with this idea to ruin my marraige, get laid, and then tell a bunch of strangers about it, just to have a few laughs. Well, when you say it like that it does seem more plausible, however it is not what's happening.

You are also right on another point, everyone does need a kick in the ass every now and again, does em good. But don't give what you can't take, but from your other replies it looks like you'll be just fine.

In the end none of it really matters though, you will think what you think and I will think what I think. That is the nature of the beast. I asked for your opinion and I got it. For that Thank you.


Later

Elron

 

[WildRose40DDD]

My Two Cents

This is my two cents. I have had an affair and it ruined my marriage. Maybe it would have failed anyway, but I feel I didn't give him the chance.
My advice, If she doesn't know, don't tell your wife. This may ease your conscience but it is at her expense.
Stop the affair and the romantice interludes.
Work on the marriage. See a counselor. There may be emotional needs that aren't being met that are behind her low sex drive. Have her speak with her physician. There are medications to help if there is a medical reason behind her low sex drive.
But please, don't let your guilt make you confess and ruin her life.

been there....done that....and f***ed it up

 

[BTK51]

Pity, Bob, pity them. It is really sad when it happens, sadder to watch, and sadder still to go thru it, then get into a relationship that has it and realize what you have been missing all those years. I was married for 15 years and there was only intimacy for about the first 2.

I disagree with you on the pity part. There are plenty of relationships that I know of where physical intimacy doesn’t exist yet the relationship is very strong and both people are very happy. Granted, I feel they are missing something but then again, I have to say “whatever works…”. As long as both person’s needs & desires are “in synch” or at least very close, then this is true. It’s when they are out of line that problems arise.

I too came from a family that was not touchy feely. My parents were never that openly affectionate. I did have some issues when we were first married because I had never really seen it as I grew up unless I happened to “catch” my parents. They immediately stopped even if it was just hugging and kissing. They never held hands. Through patience and communication, my wife helped me work through all those issues and learn to really enjoy intimacy. Our relationship was very different from our parents in that regard but all of the relationships worked. There is very little I now enjoy more than holding hands, kissing, cuddling etc. and don’t think that I could live without it. As a matter of fact, the pendulum has swung the other way now where my wife’s needs for that intimacy and sex is not as strong as mine and it does cause some friction. My wife thinks everything is great so it is now my mission to find new ways to work with her to satisfy both our needs.

This is because as limbhugger pointed out, love is so much more than that. As others have also stated, men have just as strong a need for all aspects of physical intimacy as women do - not just getting a lay or blow job. If there is a total disconnect on any issue within a marriage or committed relationship, then communication, effort and hard work are what’s needed to correct the situation. The easy way is to go somewhere else to get those needs met, but IMHO that’s not the “right” thing to do. This is not putting my morals on someone else or passing judgment on what someone else might have done. It is the essence of why a person takes a vow or makes a promise. It’s easy to keep the promise when things go well. When things don’t go so well, is when the true character of a person is tested.

Many of the people that come to this “how to” board are looking for ways to address those issues of mismatched libidos or intimacy. Some just want to find ways to keep it going or to improve it. That’s what initially brought me here. The people that hang out here are immensely helpful, articulate and compassionate and I’ve gotten some great ideas that have significantly helped my particular situation. Elron, I hope you find your answers.

Elron took another tact and as a result, is in more complicated situation now. First one has to recognize the mistakes of the past before they can come up with a solution to their current dilemma. Maybe the affair pointed out that his marriage is over and he should have left instead of having an affair. Maybe, he realized that there were other things that could have been done and that others have worked through these issues and he just needs to find the right solution. And maybe, just maybe it will prevent a lurker or someone else from doing something they will regret in the future. I certainly hope so.

 

[sheath]

Limbhugger,

You seemed to put a lot of time into your posting. I'm sure what you said was heartfelt, shot from the hip, and real.

I consider myself a pretty compassionate person, and quite tolerant. But after reading your post for the fifth time (yes, I actually counted), I have to say that you do have ONE thing more than right.

You are definitely a self-righteous, arrogant ass.



S.

 

[Bandit58]

My marriage had been over for me for years before I actually did something about it. People stay in a marriage for lots of reasons, in my case it was the kids first and foremost, then it was fear of the unknown basically. I was shy and not a confident person. I didn't think I could cope on my own. It was better the devil you know than the one you don't.

It took a meeting with someone online (it never came to anything physically) and discussing my situation with other online friends to make me realise that this was not a normal way to live. I hated my husband.....well hate is probably too strong a word but I disliked him, his touch made me cringe and his voice irritated me. I could not remember if he ever said he loved me......he said it when I was in the process of leaving but too little too damn late by then. All the putdowns and silent treatments and snide comments over the years definitely outweighed that. He never showed me affection either, I had tried early on to do things like walk hand in hand but he'd shrug me off. So I shut that part of me off too....and never realised how much I'd missed it until I met someone (after I'd left my husband) who just loved to hold and stroke me.

Loving touch is one of the most important things there is......babies and young children do not thrive unless they have it. I had been emotionally deprived for years and it did affect my health in the end, I was depressed and had a stomach ulcer. This man I met was also emotionally abused by his wife......so we were drawn together by that shared bond. So shoot us.....I like to think we helped each other, even though we're no longer in a physical relationship. He helped me discover that I am a sexual and sensual woman and I helped him realise that he has personal demons he needs to work through before he can heal himself and be a whole person, even though it could take a very long time.

The other man, my bi friend.....HE approached ME one night and oh shoot me again because I was lonely and needed someone to hold me. We meet about once a month and we both know it's just sex and time for him to be himself in the bedroom.....we're friends that's all. In our small community we're both afraid to come out to others but we can talk to each other. Is it fair to his wife? No.....but she'd be horrified if she knew his fetishes......we both know it will come to an end one day but in the meantime we help each other.......

Wow that went on for a bit didn't it.....not trying to justify anything but things aren't always black and white.....

 

[Jaybird3]

Well said Bandit, very well said.

Yes pity, because I have been there and back again. You are so right that what works for one person or one relationship might not work for another.

But please don't pass judgement on me, or tell me that what I have done is wrong, until you have been were I have. Then you can make the decision about what is right for you.

 

[Bobmi357]

So shoot us.....I like to think we helped each other, even though we're no longer in a physical relationship. He helped me discover that I am a sexual and sensual woman and I helped him realise that he has personal demons he needs to work through before he can heal himself and be a whole person, even though it could take a very long time.

The other man, my bi friend.....HE approached ME one night and oh shoot me again because I was lonely and needed someone to hold me. We meet about once a month and we both know it's just sex and time for him to be himself in the bedroom.....we're friends that's all. In our small community we're both afraid to come out to others but we can talk to each other. Is it fair to his wife? No.....but she'd be horrified if she knew his fetishes......we both know it will come to an end one day but in the meantime we help each other.......

Wow that went on for a bit didn't it.....not trying to justify anything but things aren't always black and white.....

Shoot you? For what? Being human? Look folks, I don't approve of cheating, but I've been in the situation where I could have easily cheated and hated myself because of it. The NEEDS that drive a person are powerful and hard to control. Especially when you've gone years without a kind word or a gentle caress. Where you'd be willing to forget about the sex just so you could be held in someone's arms and for a while, forget your troubles.

What amazes me is, if you've fallen off the fidelity bandwagon, don't you think its time to either fix the problem or end the relationship? I don't care what others say, if you're screwing around on your spouse, the level of "love" you have for that spouse is pretty low.

Another thing that surprises me is the amount of people that are perfectly willing to be dishonest with themselves, their spouses and families by maintaining an ongoing affair rather than saying "I'm outa here". Its an easier road to take, staying married and cheating, but when you're caught, and 9 out of 10 people are caught, the resulting mental upset will be a lot worse than if you initiate yourself.