Imus Fired

i have nothing against the shock jocks, like Stern.

i don't think trying to attract attention to onself is a reason for the authorities to shut you down.

there perhaps need to be period of time, on radio, TV and other media when it's safe for kids [clean speech, images], like say, 7-9am and 3-7 pm.

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i don't think 'trying to make a buck' is much of an argument for censorship, and am puzzled by S Des

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The truth is, the music, videos, and other medium are getting more outrageous. A long time ago, the corporate execs figured out that if filth sells, then use it until it's not selling as well, then make it filthier.
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artistic expression aimed at adults has to be protected, regardless of whether someone calls it "filthy" and says the "expression" [song, picture, story] is put out there [printed, broadcast, put on the 'net] "only to sell." note that this argument would result in Lit being shut down.

You should understand, as a musician, I'm really sensitive to censorship and would much prefer that the crap be cleaned up by the people involved.

"self censorship" while under the gun is what Hollywood did up through the 1950s, e.g. people in bed always fully clothed, side by side. if S des means without the 'gun', threat of goverment action, the he's shown the ineffectiveness of such and approach in his other li[n]e about execs going for the increasingly filthy material.

S des example muddies the water entirely:
I was visiting a site that is accesible by anyone (all you have to do is say you're 18), which has videos gathered from all over the net. They had one of a girl from England (probably underage), letting herself be fucked with a pool cue by a group of boys, while they stood around talking about what a "slag" she was. She knew they were videotaping and played up to the camera.

IF, ftsoa, a 14 is penetrated by a pool cue, by some guys, you have a crime in progess. The ACT is illegal, as is the showing of it.

HOWEVER: if ftsoa, someone writes a STORY about a 14 year old being penetrated ---either liking it or not liking it [=forceful rape]-- that's protected under the First Amendment, afaik. the story is *made up* and legal, even if not postable at Lit. the same should apply to a movie, aimed at adults, where only adults are involved and no actual sex is occurring (iow, it's, for example a movie about the rape of a 14 year old, where the actress is 18, and there is only simulated sex.)
 
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Pure said:
i have nothing against the shock jocks, like Stern.

i don't think trying to attract attention to onself is a reason for the authorities to shut you down.

there perhaps need to be period of time, on radio, TV and other media when it's safe for kids [clean speech, images], like say, 7-9am and 3-7 pm.

---
i don't think 'trying to make a buck' is much of an argument for censorship, and am puzzled by S Des
What's puzzling? There is 8 pages of thread here with people saying Imus should be fired and worse (with Can't even recommending hate speech laws aimed against right wing radio and the 700 Club), then I say Hip Hop and Rap should be cleaned up as well, which makes you confused? I toss in a personal example that shows an extroardinarily dirty rock song (which I think is fine for adults) that I don't think should be on the radio (because although gansta rap is extraordinarily bad at the moment, it's not the only stuff out there). What's to be confused about.

If you don't think it's bad to hear on the radio or see on TV, that's your business. If you think the willing image of a young girl (who may or may not be underage) being treated like an animal by a group of boys (for their amusement) should be readily viewable by sites like YouTube (where age restrictions are simply bypassed by saying, "Yup, I'm 18"), that is your business as well. I'm not about trying to convince you I'm right. I was just pointing out that a lot of people around here who are normally big on free speech were awfully quick to say Imus should be gone because he said something mean about a college basketball team. There was also several comments about changing our laws to censor certain types of speech. Similarly, there have been several threads around here where AHers have strongly defended the idea that stories about underage sex should be illegal. How do you not see those as censorship?
 
S-Des said:
Similarly, there have been several threads around here where AHers have strongly defended the idea that stories about underage sex should be illegal. How do you not see those as censorship?

Yeah?

Please show me one. Just one.
 
i'm not sure what your point is, s-des; it seems to be a re-run of what i've seen on tv: if Imus is fired, shouldn't rappers be shut down [or 'cleaned up']?

answer: no. unless you mean, simply, that one company drops the rapper from its "stable" [or threatens to if s/he doesn't 'clean up.']
if a recording company wishes to have only "clean" Rappers--or Xtian ones-- that's their right.

or you may be raising the issue of whether Imus talk "on the job" entitles him to First Amendment protection *against being fired* if the suits don't like what he says or if he scares their advertisers.

answer (several times in this thread): no.

perhaps you're saying some people seem confused to you, but you're not helping by glomming half a dozen issues together, e.g. First Amendment issues; employment law; laws against 'hate speech,' laws against 'obscenity.' etc; laws about 'child porn'; about stories of adults--or minors-- in sexual situations.
 
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Swearing off political debate is more difficult than I expected.
But just this one more thought, please.

Last night on some news show panel discussion someone said something like, "It's time that people be held accountable for what they say." Again, not the precise but close. It almost flew right by me because I was trying not to pay attention.

Then I thought, "whatever happened to being held accountable for what we do?

Will we soon be held accountable for each and every fleeting thought?

Okay, that's all.
 
Kintrub said:
I agree with Irezumi. This has been, for the most part, a fairly civil exhange of ideas and differences of opinions. Respectful. I dig it that way, myself.
True dat, yo ;)
 
Seems to me some people need to make up their minds in this country. Do we have freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press here or not? Imus may be an asshole, but according to the constitution, he has a right to be so. He has the right to say what he wants, privately or publicly, on a streetcorner or on a radio talk show. If his oppinion that a particular college women's basketball team is "nappy headed hos", then he has a right to say it. It's in the constitution and it's the law.

Or do we have selective freedoms in the US? Is it legal to protest the war by saying our military forces ar muderers, baby killers and oppressors because we don't agree with the war? Is it socially acceptable to spit on a soldier returning from the gulf and scream insults at them as they parade to graduation at boot camp? It's all right for media personalities to show their disdain for for the war painting our military as criminals?

I've seen several people who have posted here stand up for the right to burn flags and insult our military publicly standing firmly on those 1st amendment rights. They stretch those rights as far as they can get away with when it suits their purpose. However, when it's someone saying something they don't like, or don't agree with, then the first ammendment doesn't apply. It's ok to call a passing Marine a psychotic homicidal maniac, so long as you don't call him a nigger or a fag, right?

Either it's all right or it's all wrong.

Make up your minds.
 
Jubal_Harshaw said:
Seems to me some people need to make up their minds in this country. Do we have freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press here or not? Imus may be an asshole, but according to the constitution, he has a right to be so. He has the right to say what he wants, privately or publicly, on a streetcorner or on a radio talk show. If his oppinion that a particular college women's basketball team is "nappy headed hos", then he has a right to say it. It's in the constitution and it's the law.

Or do we have selective freedoms in the US? Is it legal to protest the war by saying our military forces ar muderers, baby killers and oppressors because we don't agree with the war? Is it socially acceptable to spit on a soldier returning from the gulf and scream insults at them as they parade to graduation at boot camp? It's all right for media personalities to show their disdain for for the war painting our military as criminals?

I've seen several people who have posted here stand up for the right to burn flags and insult our military publicly standing firmly on those 1st amendment rights. They stretch those rights as far as they can get away with when it suits their purpose. However, when it's someone saying something they don't like, or don't agree with, then the first ammendment doesn't apply. It's ok to call a passing Marine a psychotic homicidal maniac, so long as you don't call him a nigger or a fag, right?

Either it's all right or it's all wrong.

Make up your minds.

You don't understand the First Amendment.

Imus does indeed have the right to say whatever he wants.

He does not, however, have the right to not be fired from his job for saying it. Try saying something like that where you work, and see how quick you're out the door. How many times must that be explained?

Sheesh.
 
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Jubal_Harshaw said:
Seems to me some people need to make up their minds in this country. Do we have freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press here or not? Imus may be an asshole, but according to the constitution, he has a right to be so. He has the right to say what he wants, privately or publicly, on a streetcorner or on a radio talk show. If his oppinion that a particular college women's basketball team is "nappy headed hos", then he has a right to say it. It's in the constitution and it's the law.

Or do we have selective freedoms in the US? Is it legal to protest the war by saying our military forces ar muderers, baby killers and oppressors because we don't agree with the war? Is it socially acceptable to spit on a soldier returning from the gulf and scream insults at them as they parade to graduation at boot camp? It's all right for media personalities to show their disdain for for the war painting our military as criminals?

I've seen several people who have posted here stand up for the right to burn flags and insult our military publicly standing firmly on those 1st amendment rights. They stretch those rights as far as they can get away with when it suits their purpose. However, when it's someone saying something they don't like, or don't agree with, then the first ammendment doesn't apply. It's ok to call a passing Marine a psychotic homicidal maniac, so long as you don't call him a nigger or a fag, right?

Either it's all right or it's all wrong.

Make up your minds.
Exactly, that's why he wasn't arrested. No one said it was illegal, it was just morally wrong.
 
Sherry Hawk said:
You don't understand the First Amendment.

Imus does indeed have the right to say whatever he wants.

He does not, however, have the right to not be fired from his job for saying it. How many times must that be explained?

Sheesh.

You don't understand. If he has the right to say it, then he has the right to say it without fear of consequences.

If a black man wears a shirt to work proclaiming black superiority and he's fired the company is prosecuted for racial discrimination. If a white man wears a shirt proclaiming pride in his heritage he faces termination for the same reason.

It's right for everyone or it's not.
 
Jubal_Harshaw said:
You don't understand. If he has the right to say it, then he has the right to say it without fear of consequences.

That's not how the First Amendment works. Do some studying and get back to us on it.

eta: it reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

So, please, show me where it says what you want it to say.
 
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Sherry Hawk said:
That's not how the First Amendment works. Do some studying and get back to us on it.

eta: it reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

So, please, show me where it says what you want it to say.

It sounds like sophistry on his part....and sophistry just plain annoys me. ;)
 
ChristopherMaxwell said:
It sounds like sophistry on his part....and sophistry just plain annoys me. ;)

If people want to argue about a law or whatever, I believe they should first know what it actually says, don't you?
 
Jubal_Harshaw said:
You don't understand. If he has the right to say it, then he has the right to say it without fear of consequences.

If a black man wears a shirt to work proclaiming black superiority and he's fired the company is prosecuted for racial discrimination. If a white man wears a shirt proclaiming pride in his heritage he faces termination for the same reason.

It's right for everyone or it's not.
Well, um...there just have to be limits and exceptions for everything. No one can say whatever they want to say. Slander, defamation and hate speech are definitely what people are not allowed to say in public.
 
Sherry Hawk said:
That's not how the First Amendment works. Do some studying and get back to us on it.

eta: it reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

So, please, show me where it says what you want it to say.

Sure.

Just as soon as you show me where it says firing as a means of discipline is appropriate and legal. If he has a right to say it he has a right to say it without being persecuted.
 
Jubal_Harshaw said:
Sure.

Just as soon as you show me where it says firing as a means of discipline is appropriate and legal. If he has a right to say it he has a right to say it without being persecuted.

Firing as a means of discipline is legal everywhere. What, can you do whatever the hell you want at work?

Has zero to do with the First Amendment.

Thank you for playing, better luck next time.
 
Sherry Hawk said:
If people want to argue about a law or whatever, I believe they should first know what it actually says, don't you?

Yes, especially if they are fortunate enough to have a much broader and more protective charter of civil liberties than I grew up with....I love the freedoms that I have found here too much to pervert them into guaranteeing protection from private employers. That's going too far by half.

What's next? Private schools can't have dress codes, because they violate free expression? :rolleyes:
 
Sherry Hawk said:
Firing as a means of discipline is legal everywhere. What, can you do whatever the hell you want at work?

Has zero to do with the First Amendment.

Thank you for playing, better luck next time.

If he has issues with firings and terminations, he should take it up with his trade union, seriously. That's what unions are for, right? ;) Though maybe shock jocks don't have unions, and in their case, that may be for the best. :D :devil:
 
ChristopherMaxwell said:
If he has issues with firings and terminations, he should take it up with his trade unions. That's what unions are for, right? ;)

Not if you live in a Right to Work state. :D
 
FatDino said:
Well, um...there just have to be limits and exceptions for everything. No one can say whatever they want to say. Slander, defamation and hate speech are definitely what people are not allowed to say in public.

But they are allowed, as long as it's hate for the government, the military, white oppression or anything not covered by "political correctness".
 
Sherry Hawk said:
Not if you live in a Right to Work state. :D

That's still a concept difficult to get used to.....in most Commonwealth countries, unions are omnipotent. They can shut down entire countries, and have. That's how Edward Heath lost his job.
 
Jubal_Harshaw said:
But they are allowed, as long as it's hate for the government, the military, white oppression or anything not covered by "political correctness".
I'm sorry, did you just say that slander, defamation and hate speech were all allowed, legally?
 
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ChristopherMaxwell said:
That's still a concept difficult to get used to.....in most Commonwealth countries, unions are omnipotent. They can shut down entire countries, and have. That's how Edward Heath lost his job.

In Right to Work states, there are still unions, but the deal is that you can't be forced to join a union in order to get a job, so the unions lose much of their power.

Most states are also Employed at Will states, which means you can be fired for any reason at any time. Of course, individual companies rarely handle things that way, but if they did, they'd be well within their legal rights.
 
Jubal_Harshaw said:
You don't understand. If he has the right to say it, then he has the right to say it without fear of consequences.

If a black man wears a shirt to work proclaiming black superiority and he's fired the company is prosecuted for racial discrimination. If a white man wears a shirt proclaiming pride in his heritage he faces termination for the same reason.

It's right for everyone or it's not.
You already wrote a bias in this that says everything you need to know about the answer to your question and maybe the way you personally see the world.

"proclaiming superiority" is not the same thing as showing true PRIDE.

One works in harmony with others, promotes progressive well-being and SHARES what's good about one's culture without ever having to say or even believe that "I'm better than you."

The other just subjugates others over the self without reason and promotes prejudice and misunderstanding.

Your choice of dropping the superiority bon mot on the "Black side" and then the pride on the "White side" of your argument wasn't a fair one.
 
Sherry Hawk said:
In Right to Work states, there are still unions, but the deal is that you can't be forced to join a union in order to get a job, so the unions lose much of their power.

Most states are also Employed at Will states, which means you can be fired for any reason at any time. Of course, individual companies rarely handle things that way, but if they did, they'd be well within their legal rights.

Plus ca change.
 
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