Intelligent Stories that don’t insult you

[lovecraft68]

The interesting thing is that's how the incel "movement," for lack of a better term, started. The term "incel" was coined by a woman, and she applied it to herself. The early incel community was open to both men and women, and it was intended to be sort of a support group for people that, for whatever reason, had resigned themselves unwillingly to celibacy and/or lack of romantic affection.

And then a bunch of shit happened. The biggest was that more and more men became involved, and the less decent of them started trying to hit on the women in the community, often aggressively. That drove them way. Before too long, people involved in the MTGOW (Men Going Their Own Way, i.e., guys who wholeheartedly embraced celibacy for various reasons, choosing to focus on male friendships, hobbies, work, etc.), Pick Up Artists (sleazebags that tried to "crack the code" on foolproof ways to get laid), MRAs (men's rights activists, the guys that target the very few places where men are regularly discriminated against in Western society), and other, similarly unsavory types started recruiting from and joining in the incel communities.

I wrote (anonymously, because I'm not an idiot) a field guide to alt-right hate groups in North Texas a few years back. The way those groups operate, in terms of their recruitment and their very porous membership structures in the current era (as opposed to the very siloed structures of the past, i.e., the KKK actively fought with the neo-Nazis, who hated the sovereign citizens, etc.) are almost a carbon copy of the incel movement. No one's sure if that's a conincidence, a sign of the times, the influence of the internet, etc.

But one thing is for sure: there's an incel-to-violent hate group pipeline that runs through the whole thing. It's easy to understand, if odious. "Why, yes, women are treating you awfully. That's because *insert ethnic group here* supports them in doing that, and it's also why you seem more and more women dating *insert other ethnic group here*, because of brainwashing. It's your duty, nay, your right, to put those groups back in their place." They recruit from places where disaffected young men congregate mostly to themselves: gaming forums, some Discords, the various chan boards, etc. There's a great series on the phenomenon on YouTube by Innuendo Studios called "The Alt-Right Playbook," at

In particular, the video "How to Radicalize a Normie" goes heavy into the incel-to-alt-right pipeline, if I remember correctly.

The other interesting pipeline is the incel-to-trans pipeline. It's not talked about as much, but I have a bunch of trans friends from all over the world, and pretty much all of them knows a trans woman who was heavily into Gamergate, chan boards, etc. that is now proudly trans and deeply ashamed of their past. It makes sense; those of us old enough to remember the 70s and 80s probably all knew at least one guy (and it was almost always guys) that was suuuuuuper homophobic in high school or college that ended up coming out of the closet years later. Incel-to-trans is probably similar. "I hate women because I'm mad at myself for not being brave enough to be who I am and/or I'm confused by how I feel and it's easier/less painful to blame it on them than put in the work."

I could talk about this shit for hours. I find it fascinating, albeit horrible and sad. But there's always been movements like this, and there's always been people willing to grift them. This is just the latest face of an old cancer.

You're wrong and part of the problem. You're acting like only one political party spawns incels. Pushing that is dangerous misinformation because I can tell you there are plenty of woman hating incels and misogynists riding around with Biden bumper stickers because hate is hate and it does not have limits based on politics or a religion or any other effect.

By telling anyone-women specifically in this case-to only be wary of a man who votes a certain way, she'd leaving herself wide open to be the victim of the other side because people like you think they're saints.

Do everyone a favor and don't talk about what you don't know. That's how people get hurt, listening to opinionated fake experts. Oh, I did a paper..... Good for you, and I've been in the trenches of helping abused women for 25+ years. I'll take my resume over yours. That and your obvious political bias couldn't show through any more here so you're giving narrative, not facts, and for the sake of this argument I'll call it mansplaining.

Truth is if you're a woman? Every man should be considered bad until he's proven otherwise. That's the only mentality that will keep you safe. It sucks for them, and it sucks for all the decent guys out there, but in case anyone hasn't noticed, life often sucks and sooner you realize it and act accordingly the better off you are.

 

[NoTalentHack]

According to this post, it's comments that told you how you did, not the score. The even tell you that your score itself is skewed by politics and cannot be trusted as a measure of quality. That is to say, they agreed with you. The cucks upvoted you because you "got it right" not necessarily that the story was well written. You simply portrayed their kink the way that they want it portrayed.

The comments told you how well you connected. It sounds like they gave you some very meaningful feedback, which is excellent. But the score told you nothing.

Except that it did. I know what score range a cuckold story typically gets in there. The fact that Kayfabe hit the high end of that told me it had hit well. The comments, etc. confirmed that.

I know what score range a typical BTB, or RAAC, or... whatever flavor you want to talk about. If I turned off the comments, I would still know that Kayfabe did well. If I turned off the comments on any of my stories in LW, I could have a pretty good idea what score range it would slot into. If it didn't, though, for whatever reason, having the comments, etc. on are useful for pegging exactly why.

What I'm saying is that the score is a useful thumbnail IF if you're in tune with what category you write for. And as an aggregate with views, comments, number of ratings, etc., you can kind of hone in from the broad range that the score gives you. They're each useful metrics, but they're most useful when read as a whole.

 

[lovecraft68]

Off this whole incel topic and going back to the topic of the thread. I love how some here in this forum will tell you all about how intelligent their own stories are.
Its like the guys who are Alphas...because they say they are.

 

[StillStunned]

I love how some here in this forum will tell you all about how intelligent their own stories are.

Presumably no-one here thinks they're unintelligent. Again presumably, everyone writes stories to their own level of intelligence. Allowing for "ironic" trash stories and inferiority complexes, most people are going to think that what they write is intelligent.

But yeah, on a platform that's devoted to sex stories, it's a weird flex to be boasting about how cerebral your stories are.

 

[NoTalentHack]

You're wrong and part of the problem. You're acting like only one political party spawns incels. Pushing that is dangerous misinformation because I can tell you there are plenty of woman hating incels and misogynists riding around with Biden bumper stickers because hate is hate and it does not have limits based on politics or a religion or any other effect.

Both parties spawn them, but one specifically collects and nurtures them. But, again, not terribly interested in having a political discussion on an erotica site.

By telling anyone-women specifically in this case-to only be wary of a man who votes a certain way, she'd leaving herself wide open to be the victim of the other side because people like you think they're saints.

Where the fuck in there did I say that?

Do everyone a favor and don't talk about what you don't know. That's how people get hurt, listening to opinionated fake experts. Oh, I did a paper..... Good for you, and I've been in the trenches of helping abused women for 25+ years. I'll take my resume over yours. That and your obvious political bias couldn't show through any more here so you're giving narrative, not facts, and for the sake of this argument I'll call it mansplaining.

Christ, LC. "Don't talk about what you know?" Physician, heal thyself. You're up in, where, New England? Oh, yeah, super dangerous territory up there. Have you seen a black guy almost get run down by rednecks because it would be funny? How about had beer bottles thrown at you by skins because you had long hair? Threatened with a knife by a couple good ol' boys because you wore a skirt? No? Then hush. You don't know shit about shit when it comes to the political landscape down here, and that includes the Dominionists slowly taking over the power structures in the South while courting exactly the types of guys described above.

Abuse is one thing, and thank you for helping safeguard women from that. But actually dealing with homegrown hate groups, from the Hammerskins to the Klan to the Atomwaffen to the Proud Boys? Watching the gamer-to-incel-to-right wing hategroup pipeline in action, in person? Growing up in Texas gun culture and watching it morph over time from a hobby I'd happily share with my kids like my dad and grandpa did with me into a creepy death cult? Nah, I doubt it.

Sit your ass down when it comes to this shit. Grown ups are talking, ones who actually have lived experience here. And, yes, the incels are moving 90% of the time more and more to the right as they get redpilled and then blackpilled. That's a goddamned fact.

 

[KeithD]

I'm not sure you truly believe that. A rating of 4.7 is equivalent to 94 on a 100-point scale, which is close to perfection. It's inconceivable that so many stories are nearly perfect. The distinction between a 4.2 and a 4.7 story largely depends on their length and the number of tropes and mandatory cliches boxchecked in their respective categories.

I think SimonDoom is right on this point. And no one has any idea whatsoever on what, specifically, went into the rating of any specific story by whatever mix of folks voted on it.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Off this whole incel topic and going back to the topic of the thread. I love how some here in this forum will tell you all about how intelligent their own stories are.
Its like the guys who are Alphas...because they say they are.

This from the guy who started a milestone thread so he could give himself cover for crowing about his achievements.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I don't evaluate my work by the scores. But I'm very happy when my score is four or more.

Exactly. If I did not like my effort, I would not post it. BUT, I also like seeing my work appreciated.

Pink_silk_glove said: "Oh, so then you're merely saying that despite the fact that using scores is a terrible way to validate your efforts, authors do it anyways. Gotcha."
You like t put your words/intentions in others' mouths. What I was saying many authors like to get good reviews. They don't write entirely for themselves or they would not bother to publish but simply write and leave their stories in their files.

I know a few authors who have started not allowing comments because they simply got tired of being flamed for that very reason.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I think you're right about this. Most people have a pretty low bar with smut. They have a few generic things that turn them on: blondes with big tits, sexy cheerleaders, high heels, butt-fucking. So if they come across a story about a big-titted blonde cheerleader in high heels getting fucked up the ass, they give it five stars regardless of the quality of the writing. This is why I find porn almost unwatchable. It feels like the producers are just ticking off the content boxes.

Unfortunately, that is very true in a few categories. I want to read a well written story (and that is subjective as Hell) with a decent plot and try to produce the same.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I may have gotten a wrong impression from your previous comments about Chat. If people are talking about stories there, why do I have to go start a discussion? Where are the ongoing conversations? Is there a particular room where people have them? I expected to see rooms with names like "I/T Discussion" or "Romance Fans". I could find nothing like that

I looked a few times and found nothing discussing stories they read. Chat here is worthless in that regard.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

You like t put your words/intentions in others' mouths. What I was saying many authors like to get good reviews. They don't write entirely for themselves or they would not bother to publish but simply write and leave their stories in their files.

So we agree on that. What words am I putting in anyone's mouth?

 

[Gamblnluck]

But most of the stories fall within the range of 4.2 to 4.7. What is the fundamental difference between them?

Fun facts: you get a positive factor of 0.15 just for being a woman. You get another 0.15 if the story is over 50K words. Another 0.15 if you place it in generous categories like N&N or LS, and other weird parameters that have nothing to do with quality.

I'm not sure where you get that any of that from. Sex of the author is rarely a consideration and most do not not know. I had the impression a few authors were female (lesbian sex stories) and then found the opposite was true. Larger stories can get panned because of their size. It takes a lot of effort to read a story that is 16 Lit pages in length and unless the story is good, readers quit way before they get far into it. What is N&N? I personally scan a few categories when I check in daily. I do look at the 'similar' story

One big question is: how do you define quality? If you're writing for an audience, you could say that quality is making you're readers happy. It might not make them happy for the same reasons it make you, the author, happy. They might not even be the readers you had in mind when you were writing. But still, somewhere, for some reason, someone was a bit brighter because they read your story.

Given the almost infinite range of styles, subjects, vehicles and goals, I think it's as valid a measure as any.

I agree with Stillstunned. Many of the classic greats would fair poorly by contemporary standards. I remember getting into trouble with my English teacher over 50 years ago when I said Dickens had a great plot/story but the way he told the story was dumb. to me parts dragged and was hard to get through. Oh Henry wrote great short stories, 'Ransom of Red Chief" etc. I wonder how he would fare here. Some of the old time way of telling is arduous to read by today's standards.

 

[SimonDoom]

You say yourself that there are many factors that contribute to scoring. I agree with that. You also assert that quality is one of those factors. I can also agree with that. But how much weight quality has in the equation no one truly knows, and if you don't know that, you cannot equate the quality of your work through the score - at all.

You are then asserting that statistically speaking if we took large enough samples sizes and compare two groups we could then isolate the factor of quality. Excellent premise, but it's not really possible. I wish that we could, but it doesn't work because for every individual story those factors equate in different weights. How many of those 100 stories are in contests? How many of those stories are in LW? How many of those LW stories are BtBs? What is the plot/smut ratio in each of those stories? How many of the authors of those stories have large followings? How many of those stories were written by the same author even? How many of those stories were under 5k words? How many of those stories were single chapters in series? How many were the first chapter of a series? How many of those stories had over 100 votes? How many of those stories are less than a year old? To try to isolate quality as a factor is futile.

This is the advantage of randomly selecting stories. It's how statistical analysis works. If you take a large enough sample size--and I'm confident 100 is enough--and select randomly, then you don't need to know the rest. You can be confident that an average 4.7 score conveys meaningful information relative to a 4.2 score. I've read enough stories at Literotica over the last 20 years that I am extremely confident that this is true. Correlation isn't perfect, of course. Not every 4.7 story is better than every 4.2 story. But that's irrelevant. All we're looking for is significance, not perfect correlation, and I'm satisfied that exists. Your experience may be different, but that's my experience.

I don't ever select stories to read based purely on score. I'm far more interested in other things, but I admit scores will capture my eye and if I'm wondering which exhibitionist standalone story by Author X to read, knowing that one story had a 4.8 and another a 4.2 can make a difference.

As for my own body of work, I agree. I don't see any correlation between the scores my stories get and their quality relative to each other. I admit that may partly be a product of bias. I can see some differences between my stories overall and stories by other authors that have higher average scores, and in some cases I can see why their scores are higher, but I'm comfortable enough with what I do that I'm not interested in trying to write more like them to get higher scores. I like doing what I do.

 

[MelissaBaby]

What is N&N?

Novels & Novellas

 

[pink_silk_glove]

This is the advantage of randomly selecting stories. It's how statistical analysis works.

Yes, I took stats in school. I know my x-bar and all that. I just can't see it working here. There are just way too many factors. If you had each story with 50 votes from the same 50 voters then yes, I could see it. Otherwise the criteria for not only each story but each individual vote is just wildly different. You will never get an accurate isolation for the factor of quality in votes.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Speaking of customizing one's presence. Where does "Loving Wives SME" come from? And what does SME mean? And have you considered a link to label your URLs in your signature? In case you don't know about links, click on the two linked chain links in the line at the top of a post. Then paste in your URL at the top and your label below.

Subject Matter Expert. It’s a bit of a joke, but I write extensively in there; it’s my favorite category. Customizing your title is done by editing your profile in the main site. There’s an entry field for it.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Maybe I'm hallucinating, but I'm pretty sure I can easily tell a woman's writing style from a man's, even by their posts.

I've had writers, both male and female, bluffed, both here in the forum and in my stories. I'm actually rather pleased by that.

 

[ElectricBlue]

As for my own body of work, I agree. I don't see any correlation between the scores my stories get and their quality relative to each other. I admit that may partly be a product of bias. I can see some differences between my stories overall and stories by other authors that have higher average scores, and in some cases I can see why their scores are higher, but I'm comfortable enough with what I do that I'm not interested in trying to write more like them to get higher scores. I like doing what I do.

That's interesting. In my body of work I reckon there is a fair correlation between what I think are my better stories and what readers think. Empirically, my lower scored stories are mostly my earliest - and it's not unreasonable to assume (hope) that my later stories are stylistically and technically more accomplished.

The other reason is that the stories with the most comments are at the top of my list. It sorta kinda follows that a story that garners a much higher comment/view ratio will also get a higher reader rating. I don't write in the "hostile comment" categories, so I don't cop the negativity that's often talked about here - and the nature of the comments show where a story strikes a chord.

I wouldn't extrapolate any comparison with anyone else's score - there's far too much category sensitivity/behaviour to ever do that.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I've had writers, both male and female, bluffed, both here in the forum and in my stories. I'm actually rather pleased by that.

Same. With a lot of stories it's fairly clear what sex the author is, but with a lot of others it isn't.

I don't hide being female on the forums, though you'd think with the username people would be less likely to automatically assume male. I did remove my sex from my author profile after the approaches from men got wearing.

I'm particularly pleased when readers of my Gay Male stories get in touch and assume I'm a guy, because it means the stories must be OK. I don't let on to them, though I was tempted when one guy invited me to what sounded like a fabulous party.

 

[Gamblnluck]

Empirically, my lower scored stories are mostly my earliest - and it's not unreasonable to assume (hope) that my later stories are stylistically and technically more accomplished.

My first story published here remains my highest rated. It rated 4.7 in Loving Wives. I sure as Hell do not consider any of my stories to be 'stylistically and technically ' accomplished. I write to tell a story. I try to do that in a manner that catches and maintains the readers' interest.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I don't hide being female on the forums, though you'd think with the username people would be less likely to automatically assume male. I did remove my sex from my author profile after the approaches from men got wearing.

In fairness, I had a couple of moments when I was newish on the forums when reading your gay/bi focused stories where I was momentarily thinking 'wait, is queen refering to a female monarch or is it the reclaimed slur?'

 

[Kumquatqueen]

In fairness, I had a couple of moments when I was newish on the forums when reading your gay/bi focused stories where I was momentarily thinking 'wait, is queen refering to a female monarch or is it the reclaimed slur?'

Fair point. I would also like to point out that I have never used kumquats for any sort of sexual performance - a couple people have assumed I have ejected them like the ping-pong balls which certain talented erotic dancers use...

 

[AwkwardlySet]

https://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=7425762&page=submissions

I just stumbled upon a story written by this author. I've read a part of the story, and while the writing and the story weren't great, I wouldn't say they were below Lit's average. Yet all the stories written by this author are so incredibly low-rated, and for the life of me, I can't figure out why. He is a brand-new author, so it is hard to imagine he already attracted some bombers... Any ideas?

 

[NoTalentHack]

https://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=7425762&page=submissions

I just stumbled upon a story written by this author. I've read a part of the story, and while the writing and the story weren't great, I wouldn't say they were below Lit's average. Yet all the stories written by this author are so incredibly low-rated, and for the life of me, I can't figure out why. He is a brand-new author, so it is hard to imagine he already attracted some bombers... Any ideas?

1) Racism. Over in LW, if an author is writing characters with South Asian names, there’s a pretty close to 100% chance it’s going to turn into a cuckolding story, if it doesn’t start that way. Given the size of the LW readership, their general conservatism, and the fact that there’s a pretty big crossover between LW and Romance, I wouldn’t be surprised if the no-cuck brigade is bringing their prejudices (definitely plural there) over and preemptively nuking him.

2) Unmarked series. Most of the stories there say “follows X other story," and people are probably popping in and then noping out when they don’t see a series list. That gives the preemptive 1-bombers an advantage in determining the rating.

3) Low views. This ties in with the point above. Low views plus baked in 1-bombs = low ratings.

4) Low scores beget low scores. People don’t seek out low scoring stories, especially if a writer has a bunch of low scoring stories.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Just heaping more evidence onto the pile that shows that scores don't mean jack.