Introducing Women's Erotica: a new subgenre of Erotica, and a necessary one

[Cagivagurl]

Half the writers here in the AH seem to say they don't care about grammar and style, but excel at storytelling.

I have mentioned many times. Grammar is unimportant to me as a reader.
I have never once said that I am a good storyteller.
Others have said similar things. Very few categorised themselves as (Good) Storytellers.

Cagivagurl

 

[AndreaJLabia]

Aw thanks flattery will get you.... well, places.

I see your point about Lesbian Sex stories: there are many there that might be termed "strokers" (or perhaps "jillers") that have no/very little emotional content or journey. Those are often easy to spot by the description or the tags or even the length of the piece.

I am still confused though by what you are actually proposing. Do you want us to get together to agitate for a new category/a change in categories? As many have pointed out on this thread, doing so would a) probably not be successful and b) not guard against authors miscategorising their stories.

But then you talk about this being cross-genre. So, do you want us to just adopt certain tags to guide readers? Or create and share lists of these stories? (If that's so, then I would argue that many writers are already doing this.)

What is your desired outcome here? Or was the conversation simply your goal?

Ciao bella.

Hello T

thank you again for the conversation!

First of all, let me say I don't believe flattery will get me (or anybody else) anywhere. You ARE an outstanding author. I know because I rate myself a good author. No false modesty here: my stories are all over four stars so I am proud of my creative writing skill. But ALL your stories are HOT! It takes seven five-stars votes to counterbalance a one-star vote by a troll (or simply by a disappointed reader), yet all your stories are in the hot zone. So it is not my flattery, it is the statistics and Lit rules. You ARE an outstanding author. Admit it

This said, let me try to answer your question. No new category or tag proposal. What I would like to do is connect the good writers of Erotica who recognize themselves in the Women's Erotica definition: colleagues who write in any category, women and men and any other fluid gender. The definition is inclusive. I believe that Women's Erotica is a strong (cross) genre, less problematic than the original Women's Fiction, a genre that already exists and is here to stay, I know because I am a member of the WFWA and I witnessed the attempt to change the problematic genre's name, and its failure. The goal I propose here is to leverage the concept to expand the audience of good Erotica, and we can do that only together. I believe it is very promising and I have ideas, but I'd like to discuss them in due time with those who want to participate in the challenge, if and when a Women's Erotica Writers group emerges.

But first of all, I need to answer all the writers and readers who answered my post. I will summarize their opinions in a new post, but it will take a while. Truth is, I didn't expect such a massive response to my proposal, so it will take a while to read all the replies and meditate and answer. I apologize for the delay. It is partly my fault: in the morning (my creative hours) I don't post, I work on my new story. It is inevitable, my characters beckon me, you know the feeling

Arrivederci bellissima!

NV

 

[StillStunned]

The goal I propose here is to leverage the concept to expand the audience of good Erotica, and we can do that only together.

Are you equating "Women's Erotica" with "good erotica"?

 

[AndreaJLabia]

"While you're at it, won't ya buy me a Mercedes Benz"

...and a night on the town!

 

[AndreaJLabia]

Are you equating "Women's Erotica" with "good erotica"?

No, I do not. There is good Women's Fiction and bad Women's Fiction. The same for Women's Erotica of course. But Good Erotica is not a good genre, while I believe Women's Erotica is.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

First of all, let me say I don't believe flattery will get me (or anybody else) anywhere. You ARE an outstanding author. I know because I rate myself a good author. No false modesty here: my stories are all over four stars so I am proud of my creative writing skill. But ALL your stories are HOT! It takes seven five-stars votes to counterbalance a one-star vote by a troll (or simply by a disappointed reader), yet all your stories are in the hot zone. So it is not my flattery, it is the statistics and Lit rules. You ARE an outstanding author. Admit it

I don't want to burst your bubble, but deducing an author's skill by the score of their stories, or their HOT rating, will most certainly mislead you. I mean, I would be happy if it were so but yeah, reality is somewhat different. That doesn't mean that THBGato isn't an outstanding author as you say, I am just saying that judging the author's skill by the rating of their stories is an incomplete approach, to say the least, in the sense of the criteria.
If you delve deeper into the vast number of stories on Literotica you will soon see the truth in my words

 

[AndreaJLabia]

Dear Colleague
I am relatively new to Literotica and I know I have a lot to learn, so I believe you may be right. But if we want to define an objective criterion to decide what an outstanding author (by Lit standards) is, I'd propose that ALL stories (more than twenty of them) in the HOT zone could be a reasonable metric
Best
NV

 

[StillStunned]

No, the Red H is an indication of popularity, not necessarily quality. You can be the best writer on Lit, but if you include an unexpected kink, or use an unpopular style, or simply write something that doesn't get enough votes, you'll miss out on the Red H.

 

[Bazzle]

I will say that I get more private positive feedback from women for my stories when I post them on Reddit.

Not sure if that means that they are Women friendly erotica?

 

[AndreaJLabia]

No, the Red H is an indication of popularity, not necessarily quality. You can be the best writer on Lit, but if you include an unexpected kink, or use an unpopular style, or simply write something that doesn't get enough votes, you'll miss out on the Red H.

I know you are right. I studied the dynamics of ratings in my stories, and on one occasion four of them were shot down from the HOt area in a few hours probably by a single troll, or maybe just an honest reviewer who (as you write) was disappointed by something. I don't complain, Lit rules. Yet, I believe Lit popularity --when consistent and outstanding--is important because it can be measured. It could be a good proxy for good storytelling. I find popular stories are often also well-written.
Best

 

[THBGato]

This said, let me try to answer your question. No new category or tag proposal. What I would like to do is connect the good writers of Erotica who recognize themselves in the Women's Erotica definition: colleagues who write in any category, women and men and any other fluid gender. The definition is inclusive. I believe that Women's Erotica is a strong (cross) genre, less problematic than the original Women's Fiction, a genre that already exists and is here to stay, I know because I am a member of the WFWA and I witnessed the attempt to change the problematic genre's name, and its failure. The goal I propose here is to leverage the concept to expand the audience of good Erotica, and we can do that only together. I believe it is very promising and I have ideas, but I'd like to discuss them in due time with those who want to participate in the challenge, if and when a Women's Erotica Writers group emerges.

Thanks for the clearer answer (and kind words). This sounds along the lines of the Pink Orchid event @Omenainen organises.

Are you aware of that event? Does it align with what you want to do? Assuming it runs again next year, would participating in it and the discussion threads about it achieve your goals?

T x

 

[Omenainen]

No new category or tag proposal. What I would like to do is connect the good writers of Erotica who recognize themselves in the Women's Erotica definition: colleagues who write in any category, women and men and any other fluid gender. The definition is inclusive. I believe that Women's Erotica is a strong (cross) genre, less problematic than the original Women's Fiction, a genre that already exists and is here to stay, I know because I am a member of the WFWA and I witnessed the attempt to change the problematic genre's name, and its failure.

Nothing wrong with wanting to network with like-minded authors. I would suggest coming up with a better name though. If “women’s fiction” as a name was a failure, why repeat the same mistake here?

I’m also still not clear what this “new” genre would actually be about compared to all we already have. Personally I think @StillStunned ’s “emotica” was quite ingenious, if the point is the focus on emotional journey.

The goal I propose here is to leverage the concept to expand the audience of good Erotica, and we can do that only together. I believe it is very promising and I have ideas, but I'd like to discuss them in due time with those who want to participate in the challenge, if and when a Women's Erotica Writers group emerges.

Nothing wrong with wanting to get more eyeballs to one’s stories either. There’s constantly threads on how to go about that on the forum.

For my part, one of my goals on Lit has been to advance smut where women are portrayed as people and not just cock accessories. I’ve founded an event for it, like AMD pointed out at post #2 of this thread. It’s called Pink Orchid and it will be held around the beginning of the year, so that the story list will be published on the International Women’s Day. You and your network are very welcome to participate. My event doesn’t require emotional journey, but having one is certainly compatible with my objectives.

I’ll put up the event thread in the near future.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I know because I rate myself a good author. No false modesty here: my stories are all over four stars so I am proud of my creative writing skill.

What I would like to do is connect the good writers of Erotica who recognize themselves in the Women's Erotica definition:

Since my average score is about 3.8, I won't bother applying, thx.

 

[AndreaJLabia]

I will say that I get more private positive feedback from women for my stories when I post them on Reddit.

Not sure if that means that they are Women friendly e

Since my average score is about 3.8, I won't bother applying, thx.

Thank you

Since my average score is about 3.8, I won't bother applying, thx.

Thank YOU PinkSilkGlove, I'll keep you posted about the developments.
Cheers!
NC

 

[AndreaJLabia]

Nothing wrong with wanting to network with like-minded authors. I would suggest coming up with a better name though. If “women’s fiction” as a name was a failure, why repeat the same mistake here?

I’m also still not clear what this “new” genre would actually be about compared to all we already have. Personally I think @StillStunned ’s “emotica” was quite ingenious, if the point is the focus on emotional journey.



Nothing wrong with wanting to get more eyeballs to one’s stories either. There’s constantly threads on how to go about that on the forum.

For my part, one of my goals on Lit has been to advance smut where women are portrayed as people and not just cock accessories. I’ve founded an event for it, like AMD pointed out at post #2 of this thread. It’s called Pink Orchid and it will be held around the beginning of the year, so that the story list will be published on the International Women’s Day. You and your network are very welcome to participate. My event doesn’t require emotional journey, but having one is certainly compatible with my objectives.

I’ll put up the event thread in the near future.

Thank you for your opinions and your suggestions. I read the latest Pink Orchid event thread and I look forward to participate in the next session and forward your invitation to the Women's Erotica group if it materializes. Thank you for the invitation.

About your question 'If “women’s fiction” as a name was a failure, why repeat the same mistake here?' I was unclear. Women's Fiction is a problematic genre but here to stay. Indeed, it was the Women's Fiction Writers Association's attempt to change it that failed.

Best from Italy

NV

 

[AndreaJLabia]

Thanks for the clearer answer (and kind words). This sounds along the lines of the Pink Orchid event @Omenainen organises.

Are you aware of that event? Does it align with what you want to do? Assuming it runs again next year, would participating in it and the discussion threads about it achieve your goals?

T x

I didn't know about Pink Orchid and I look forward to participating next time. It could certainly contribute to clarifying the Women's Erotica project. I have a lot to learn in Lit!
Thank you T.
NV

 

[StillStunned]

About your question 'If “women’s fiction” as a name was a failure, why repeat the same mistake here?' I was unclear. Women's Fiction is a problematic genre but here to stay. Indeed, it was the Women's Fiction Writers Association's attempt to change it that failed.

They tried to change an existing name, but failed. But then why try to use the name for something beyond its current use? Surely that's a perfect opportunity to adopt a new term?

Because I doubt the concept of "women's fiction" will automatically draw the same audience to "women's erotica". This whole thread has put forward enough arguments about why the term is a misnomer. It's not limited to women writers, it's not intended exclusively for women readers, it's not necessarily about women as characters.

"Women's fiction" as a concept might be here to stay, but there's no reason to wilfully repeat the same mistake when trying to establish a parallel genre in erotica. Learn from the mistakes and do it better.

Call it "emotion-driven erotica", "emotional journey erotica", "personal growth erotica", "personality-based erotica", or even "emotica", whatever. These are all more descriptive and more accurate than "women's erotica", and less exclusive.

Unless, like I mentioned earlier, the whole idea is to trigger the kneejerk reaction of "this is for women and nobody can take it away from us!"

 

[AndreaJLabia]

Excuse me, I hate to seem pedantic, but why bother calling it "Women's Fiction" or "Women's Erotica" if the protagonist doesn't have to be a woman?

I've found various definitions which all differ from the one you proposed by specifying that Women's Fiction has to center the experiences of women. For example, the definition used by Wikipedia reads (emphasis added):

If the new category you propose centers on the emotional journey of the main character regardless of gender, why call it "Women's Fiction"?

Thank you for your answer, and you are not pedantic. It is a good question, and anyway I tend to be pedantic myself on this kind of issue. But let me start from the second part of your post. If you read the Wikipedia entry you mention you will find the WFWA definition I propose to adopt and adapt. let me copy it below:

"The Women's Fiction Writers' Association gives a broader and more inclusive definition, in which romance elements are not mandatory:"

"Our stories may include romance, or they may not. They can be contemporary or historical and have magical, mystery, thriller, or other elements. Whereas the driving force of a romance novel is a love story, a mystery's is the exposure of an event, a thriller's is a fear-inducing chase or escape, etc., the driving force of women's fiction is the protagonist's journey toward a more fulfilled self. "Women's fiction as defined by WFWA is reflected in our guiding statement: Women's Fiction Writers Association is an inclusive organization of writers creating layered stories in which the plot is driven by the main character’s emotional journey."

So Women's Fiction is a problematic genre, but it is here to stay, because the WFWA itself tried to change it and concluded that it is impossible. I know because I am a member of the WFWA and participated in the discussion.
But the genre is less problematic in Erotica, and very promising, so I believe it is worth exploring the opportunity, maybe creating a connection between the writers of Lit (of every gender) who identify (some of) their writings in the WFWA definition.
My proposal if a first attempt in that direction.
Best
NV

Excuse me, I hate to seem pedantic, but why bother calling it "Women's Fiction" or "Women's Erotica" if the protagonist doesn't have to be a woman?

I've found various definitions which all differ from the one you proposed by specifying that Women's Fiction has to center the experiences of women. For example, the definition used by Wikipedia reads (emphasis added):

If the new category you propose centers on the emotional journey of the main character regardless of gender, why call it "Women's Fiction"?

 

[AndreaJLabia]

Isn't that just fiction, period? How is that "women's fiction"?

I'm thinking about The Odyssey, or Hamlet, or Crime and Punishment, or Huckleberry Finn, or Look Homeward Angel, or David Copperfield, or . . . I could go on.

Hello Simon
you are right, many masterpieces could qualify as Women's Fiction, and many commercial successes as well, but not as many as it seems. It is a cross-genre cutting across other genres, but not a generic one: the definition makes it very specific, which makes it useful. But the real reason why I propose it is that it is an established genre, here to stay, and I believe it is a great opportunity for the Erotica writers who write WF stories.
This is why I posted the proposal.
Best
NC

 

[AndreaJLabia]

There is nothing new about this at all.

I am sorry you think so. I hope you participate in the discussion and change your mind.

Your post seems a bit spammy.

I would never post SPAM.

Best
NC

 

[AndreaJLabia]

I love this discussion. But I agree, I'm not sure "Women's Erotica" even how she defines it is a totally new sub-genre.

As a reader though, (not a writer) I look forward to this discussion and, hopefully, some examples? (hint, hint)

Thank you Liz. I hate to be suspected of self-promotion , but almost all my stories are Women's Erotica, in different categories (maybe there is one you like...
Best
NV

 

[AndreaJLabia]

There were (maybe still are ) some adult film companies owned and operated by women. Their stuff was/is different from the mainstream stuff.

Sure there are. One of the pioneers was Candida Royalle, with whom I exchanged a couple of emails just before her untimely death. She is now recognized as a great feminist.

Lifetime and Hallmark were billed as women oriented. And there's all those millions of 'romance' books out there.

Yes, but pure Romance does not necessarily qualify as Women's Fiction. See Wikipedia.
Thank you for your post which provided me with the opportunity to clarify.
Cheers!
NV

 

[Jorunn]

Perhaps the most practical thing would be to create a thread for this, with a description of what it is for, and to which writers could post links to their stories. I do think a tag is a good idea, and like Omenainen's idea of a more catchy or descriptive name for either the thread or the tag.

 

[Britva415]

...and a night on the town!

and a color TV!

 

[Bramblethorn]

Dear Colleague
I am relatively new to Literotica and I know I have a lot to learn, so I believe you may be right. But if we want to define an objective criterion to decide what an outstanding author (by Lit standards) is, I'd propose that ALL stories (more than twenty of them) in the HOT zone could be a reasonable metric

In my day job I spend a lot of time putting numbers and numerical definitions on things. One of the most important things to learn in that job is that not everything can or should have a numerical definition put on it.

I've racked up a couple of red Hs over the years. It's nice ego fodder but it's also left me aware of how many things beside quality go into whether or not something gets that H, and any writer who makes the red H their target will likely end up killing their creativity.