Introducing Women's Erotica: a new subgenre of Erotica, and a necessary one

[SimonDoom]

In my day job I spend a lot of time putting numbers and numerical definitions on things. One of the most important things to learn in that job is that not everything can or should have a numerical definition put on it.

I've racked up a couple of red Hs over the years. It's nice ego fodder but it's also left me aware of how many things beside quality go into whether or not something gets that H, and any writer who makes the red H their target will likely end up killing their creativity.

I could not agree more.

I'm not one of those who think scores are meaningless; on the contrary, I think they are an imperfect but useful measure of story quality. I've had my share of red Hs, but I've also had stories that did NOT get red Hs that I thought were just as good. A system that gave further recognition to authors who only reach certain numbers would further incentivize authors to chase numbers, and that's deadly for creativity.

 

[Cagivagurl]

Dear Colleague
I am relatively new to Literotica and I know I have a lot to learn, so I believe you may be right. But if we want to define an objective criterion to decide what an outstanding author (by Lit standards) is, I'd propose that ALL stories (more than twenty of them) in the HOT zone could be a reasonable metric
Best
NV

I'm not sure I agree with that as a guide to a stories quality...
There are some terrible stories on Literotica, that wear the red H. Why? They play to the audience. In a literary sense they could be absolutely awful, but if they tick the boxes for the particular category, then regardless of quality. They will win votes.

Contrary to that are the stories in the same category, that are well crafted, well written stories. However, if they didn't tickle the audience, then they will miss out on receiving the red H.
That is the enigma of Literotica, quality doesn't always win.

As a reader, some of my favourite stories, do not wear the red H.

Perhaps there's a counter argument that if you entertained your audience, then you deserve the praise...

Cagivagurl

 

[THBGato]

Apropos of this, here is a brilliant on-going series that deals with a woman's emotional journey rather brilliantly and movingly BUT is not scoring well:

https://www.literotica.com/s/square-one-ch-01

This has nothing to do with the quality of the writing, which is excellent, but because it isn't hitting the usual "beats" of the various popular Lesbian Sex archetypes. Yet I suspect it is exactly the kind of story @NancyVeeners had in mind starting this thread. (If it isn't then I clearly know SFA anf will curtsey out of all future discussion.)

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Apropos of this, here is a brilliant on-going series that deals with a woman's emotional journey rather brilliantly and movingly BUT is not scoring well:

https://www.literotica.com/s/square-one-ch-01

This has nothing to do with the quality of the writing, which is excellent, but because it isn't hitting the usual "beats" of the various popular Lesbian Sex archetypes.

You managed to tickle my curiosity and I read that first chapter. I must say I disagree with you about the brilliance of that story
There is barely any eroticism in it but that would be perfectly okay, especially for the first chapter, yet there are a few other aspects that aren't nearly done well in my opinion.
The suspension of disbelief, for example, is too much for such a story. The reactions of the MC are way too extreme and they all come from less than a minute of interaction with another person. It just doesn't work. Well, for me at least.
There is also the impression that the story is what I call "Activist erotica"

I am still thankful for the link because I'd say it shows that we don't all agree about what makes a good story. There is a lot of subjectivity in what each of us sees as a good story, and Literotica stories are the perfect playground for that.
Why? Because unlike with all the well-known stories and novels, our minds are "unpolluted" with critiques and all the education about the worth of these stories. When we read these Literotica stories, our minds start with a blank page, and the opinions are ours alone.

 

[Bramblethorn]

You managed to tickle my curiosity and I read that first chapter. I must say I disagree with you about the brilliance of that story
There is barely any eroticism in it but that would be perfectly okay, especially for the first chapter, yet there are a few other aspects that aren't nearly done well in my opinion.
The suspension of disbelief, for example, is too much for such a story. The reactions of the MC are way too extreme and they all come from less than a minute of interaction with another person. It just doesn't work. Well, for me at least.
There is also the impression that the story is what I call "Activist erotica"

...I've read it over twice and I can't see what on earth this is based on, unless it's some kind of extreme over-reaction to one character using the word "hetero-normative". Somebody help me out here?

 

[THBGato]

Fair enough. My favourite trope is that of women who previously thought of themselves as straight discovering that they aren't, hence I'm always predisposed to like any story dealing with that topic. I particularly like it when that moment of realistion isn't immediately accepted and therefore gets dragged out, as happens in this story. I'm more than willing to accept that I may have overlooked flaws in the writing because that "gay panic" the protagonist is experiencing so sucked me in. Yep, so it was fast: sometimes attraction is.

The suspension of disbelief, for example, is too much for such a story.

Yes, accepted, the whole premise ("I want to empty my account and then I'm going to Vegas") is ridiculous, but so what? At least it's fairly new. That is to say I've never come across that plot device before, whereas I've read at least 30 stranded-woman rescued in a snowstorm, or homeless woman taken in by kindly Samaritan, or roommates fall in love stories. I've no problem with those well-worn plot devices, but I'll give abcerotic props for originality here.

However, there are far FAR less believable stories (including some of my own) that have scored much more highly than this. But they followed the "beats" of one of the Lesbian Sex archetypes, so they scored well.

When we read these Literotica stories, our minds start with a blank page, and the opinions are ours alone.

Not really. We all come with expectations about what we are going to read, and are disappointed if they aren't met/pleased when they are. Our expectations are not formed in a vacuum, but are influenced by everything else we have read. Again, that's my point about archetypes. However, I appreciate that I really don't read outside Lesbian Sex, so this may not hold true at all for other genres. (But given what PSG was saying about Romance, I suspect it is the case there. And we've heard ad nauseam about the issues with Loving Wives stories not giving the readers what they want.)

 

[HordHolm]

However, there are far FAR less believable stories (including some of my own) that have scored much more highly than this. But they followed the "beats" of one of the Lesbian Sex archetypes, so they scored well.

Not really. We all come with expectations about what we are going to read, and are disappointed if they aren't met/pleased when they are. Our expectations are not formed in a vacuum, but are influenced by everything else we have read. Again, that's my point about archetypes. However, I appreciate that I really don't read outside Lesbian Sex, so this may not hold true at all for other genres. (But given what PSG was saying about Romance, I suspect it is the case there. And we've heard ad nauseam about the issues with Loving Wives stories not giving the readers what they want.)

This gets to the heart of the whole debate, for me. We always go in with expectations, and those expectations will be subjective. @pink_silk_glove mentioned some Romance stories that scored well, but missed as far as they were concerned. It's probable that those stories, as PSG pointed out, simply ticked the boxes enough to get a good score. Though here we have to wonder who is doing the voting, given that our stereotype of the Romance readership is that it probably skews female. I'm not sure what that suggests for women's erotica (or any other), but then we can say the same with IRL publishing - how deep is Mills & Boon? How much of a real emotional journey are we travelling? How much of it is simply rehashing archetypes in a 'She meets He, but then He comes along and muddies the waters until she realises she should be with He number one'? And the same goes with Tom Clancy, or John Grisham, or Dan Brown, or even (heaven help us) E L James, all writing in different genres with different readerships, but, we might argue, with similar depth.

But I see what Awkwardly Set is getting at, in that the fiction on Lit hasn't been taught to us, per se, in an English Lit course with a teacher extolling its virtues, or come to us through a review (mostly).

 

[StillStunned]

But I see what Awkwardly Set is getting at, in that the fiction on Lit hasn't been taught to us, per se, in an English Lit course with a teacher extolling its virtues, or come to us through a review (mostly).

When I was at uni, one of the professors decided to teach a module in Science Fiction & Fantasy. As you can imagine, dozens of us signed up - even in the early 1990s, and even in a degree course where 90% of the students were female.

In the end it was a massive disappointment. It turned out to be mostly about the professor showing off his knowledge of unknown, esoteric books and authors, some of which didn't even qualify as genre fiction in the first place.

I can see something similar happening if Erotica was taught at university. Lots of interest, but a high likelihood of walking away in disappointment.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Yes, accepted, the whole premise ("I want to empty my account and then I'm going to Vegas") is ridiculous, but so what? At least it's fairly new.

You say "ridiculous", I say "possibly based on a RL event": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Revell

Though Revell's bet was less risky than the one in the story.

 

[StillStunned]

I got the impression that @AwkwardlySet's suspension of disbelief had more to do with the narrator's extreme reaction to the woman after a single look at her, not the idea that someone would want to gamble away all their possessions. (Which was done very powerfully in Leaving Las Vegas, for a start. My assumption was that the customer had discovered she didn't have long to live and wanted to go out in style.)

 

[THBGato]

I got the impression that @AwkwardlySet's suspension of disbelief had more to do with the narrator's extreme reaction to the woman after a single look at her, not the idea that someone would want to gamble away all their possessions.

Yes, re-reading, I realise you're right. In which case, I feel a little sorry for @AwkwardlySet as it may suggest they've never experienced that kind of instant, inexplicable attraction. There's nothing quite like it. If it then leads you to question your sexual identity, it can almost leave you dizzy and sweating. As Shakespeare's Olivia says: "So quickly may one catch the ague?"

 

[AwkwardMD]

Yes, re-reading, I realise you're right. In which case, I feel a little sorry for @AwkwardlySet as it may suggest they've never experienced that kind of instant, inexplicable attraction. There's nothing quite like it. If it then leads you to question your sexual identity, it can almost leave you dizzy and sweating. As Shakespeare's Olivia says: "So quickly may one catch the ague?"

There's a reason it's called gay panic.

EDIT: Sometimes I think I was very lucky to have mine in a movie theater, in the dark, in a crowd, and not in front of an actual person.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

It's as @StillStunned said.

@THBGato There had been a couple of moments in my life when I found myself at a loss for words when meeting a particularly beautiful woman. And this happened when the woman was not just a beautiful face but when it was the way she held herself, the way she moved, the way she talked. So I can understand that part. But this reaction after interacting with a pretty face for less than a minute, that has the MC unable to function, needing to take a breath, to sit down and gather her wits, legs wobbling, questioning her sexual orientation, and whatnot else is just way too much. I have a feeling that your love for this trope made you somewhat biased in this regard, no offense.

This particular interest of yours, a woman discovering she might not be as straight as she thought, is not uninteresting to me. I would be interested to read about such characters but you would have to make it believable. Say a gradual development of attraction towards a girl that the FMC first sees just as a friendship, only to discover that she is starting to have wet dreams and sexual fantasies, that she is slowly coming to see the girl as a romantic interest and then showing her inner conflict about her orientation... yeah, that would make for an interesting story. This story though? The reactions and the development are... well, cartoonish almost.

 

[SimonDoom]

Apropos of this, here is a brilliant on-going series that deals with a woman's emotional journey rather brilliantly and movingly BUT is not scoring well:

https://www.literotica.com/s/square-one-ch-01

This has nothing to do with the quality of the writing, which is excellent, but because it isn't hitting the usual "beats" of the various popular Lesbian Sex archetypes. Yet I suspect it is exactly the kind of story @NancyVeeners had in mind starting this thread. (If it isn't then I clearly know SFA anf will curtsey out of all future discussion.)

I read it. My reaction and opinion regarding its score:

1. It's short, less than one Lit page, and such stories rarely score well.
2. The dialogue is consistently punctuated wrong. Some people may not care, but I do, and stories with poor punctuation tend to score a bit worse than those that are punctuated correctly.
3. To me, there is an inadequate explanation in the narration of the narrator's reaction to the woman withdrawing the money. I have no problem with the "gay panic" idea, but I want more explanation of it. I feel like I'm being plunged into a maelstrom of feelings but I don't know why I'm there. What is so damn appealing about the woman withdrawing the money? I don't know from the story as it's told. I'd like a little less description of the feeling of panic and a little more explanation of why the feeling of panic happens. Part of the problem is I have so little feel for who the narrator is.

 

[THBGato]

All fair criticisms.

(Though I would say that the point about "gay panic" is that it is "panic" i.e. sudden anxiety that prevents rational thought. She's in no state to explain or understand her reaction.)

But still, 3.98? It's not very old and so that may rise. But when I think of other, far worse stories in the same genre that are scoring (much) higher than that.... I'm just left bemused.

That was my original point really, I think in response to somebody else's comment that the scoring system can't necessarily be trusted. Am I saying that this is the greatest story ever? No. Do I think it is better than that score suggests? Yes.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

There's a reason it's called gay panic.

EDIT: Sometimes I think I was very lucky to have mine in a movie theater, in the dark, in a crowd, and not in front of an actual person.

In a movie theater, in the dark? Was it a reaction to one of the actors/movie characters? But more importantly, was this a "dirty" experience of a sort? Pray tell

 

[AwkwardMD]

In a movie theater, in the dark? Was it a reaction to one of the actors/movie characters? But more importantly, was this a "dirty" experience of a sort? Pray tell

Underworld. Kate Beckinsale running around with those pistols, and that hair, and those eyes.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Underworld. Kate Beckinsale running around with those pistols, and that hair, and those eyes.

Kate Beckinsale was insanely pretty and sexy at the time. But if I understood you right, it wasn't just her pretty face, it was who she was as a character - this confident and emphatic kick-ass vampire woman, while still keeping all of her femininity and her female sexuality. Unlike the situation in the story we were talking about, this experience of yours isn't hard to believe and understand at all.

 

[Jackie.Hikaru]

Underworld. Kate Beckinsale running around with those pistols, and that hair, and those eyes.

Underworld Kate Beckinsale is peak Kate Beckinsale.

 

[AwkwardMD]

(and that jacket?!?)

 

[AG31]

I read it. My reaction and opinion regarding its score:

1. It's short, less than one Lit page, and such stories rarely score well.

After several posts in this thread about this story, this is the info that tipped me over the edge into actually reading it.

2. The dialogue is consistently punctuated wrong. Some people may not care, but I do, and stories with poor punctuation tend to score a bit worse than those that are punctuated correctly.

I went into it with a focus on this bit of irrelevancy. I did it because my son teaches reading to kids with reading problems, and one of the approaches is to get them to "feel" the rhythm of puncuation. You put a period there because your finished with your idea. This caused me to notice that in most of the modern fiction I read there's total disregard for such ideas as "a sentence must have a subject and a verb."

To be honest, I had to re-read it to find the punctuation problems. It was annoying that they consistently separated the quote from the "she said" with a period instead of a comma, making the "She said" its own sentence. That doesn't contribute to the "ordinary language" feel. It is just a mistake, easily corrected. I don't think I've ever seen it before. Is that the sort of punctuation thing you're talking about?

3. To me, there is an inadequate explanation in the narration of the narrator's reaction to the woman withdrawing the money. I have no problem with the "gay panic" idea, but I want more explanation of it. I feel like I'm being plunged into a maelstrom of feelings but I don't know why I'm there. What is so damn appealing about the woman withdrawing the money? I don't know from the story as it's told. I'd like a little less description of the feeling of panic and a little more explanation of why the feeling of panic happens. Part of the problem is I have so little feel for who the narrator is.

Another theme that's been floating around in my head for a while. Is it possible to articulate what causes a person to be sexually attractive to another, even before they actually meet?

Unfortunately for my theme, the @abcderotic pays very little attention to what causes the customer to be attractive. Instead they concentrate on the feeling of being attracted. I didn't find it particularly compelling, but I commend them for the attempt. I didn't object to being "plunged into a maelstrom of feelings." I just wasn't actually swept up in them.


Diddley Squat
I really enjoy editing and usually include a category for small things, spelling errors, double use of a word in a paragraph... and turns of phrase that strike me as particularly well done. Here's one from this story.

I spin on my heel and quip, "I'll be back" as I let the door close behind me.

"I'm so glad." I think she says. I process it too late to reply and it replays in my mind

 

[SimonDoom]

I went into it with a focus on this bit of irrelevancy. I did it because my son teaches reading to kids with reading problems, and one of the approaches is to get them to "feel" the rhythm of puncuation. You put a period there because your finished with your idea. This caused me to notice that in most of the modern fiction I read there's total disregard for such ideas as "a sentence must have a subject and a verb."

To be honest, I had to re-read it to find the punctuation problems. It was annoying that they consistently separated the quote from the "she said" with a period instead of a comma, making the "She said" its own sentence. That doesn't contribute to the "ordinary language" feel. It is just a mistake, easily corrected. I don't think I've ever seen it before. Is that the sort of punctuation thing you're talking about?

The author of the story regularly puts a period at the end of the quote where there ought to be a comma, followed by a an upper case rather than lower case pronoun in the tag. In several other places later in the story, however, there's no punctuation at all before the quotation mark. So it's sloppy and inconsistent as well as being wrong.

I haven't noticed a "total disregard for the idea that sentences must have subjects and verbs" in the modern fiction I've read. Most such fiction that I've read abides by the same rules as the fiction I grew up with.

Unfortunately for my theme, the @abcderotic pays very little attention to what causes the customer to be attractive. Instead they concentrate on the feeling of being attracted. I didn't find it particularly compelling, but I commend them for the attempt. I didn't object to being "plunged into a maelstrom of feelings." I just wasn't actually swept up in them.

For me, at least, erotica works when I'm not just told but shown. I want to be able to experience what the narrator experiences, and to do that I need to see, in this case, from the narrator's point of view, what it is about the other woman that's so attractive. I don't see it.

 

[StillStunned]

This might just be me, but I'm not entirely comfortable going into this level of criticism of a story without the author being involved, or at least aware. AG31 already tagged them in a few posts above, so perhaps we can refrain from further comment until they have a chance to give their views? This line of discussion seems to have slipped quite far from the thread's topic anyway.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Underworld Kate Beckinsale is peak Kate Beckinsale.

Facts.

 

[THBGato]

This might just be me, but I'm not entirely comfortable going into this level of criticism of a story without the author being involved, or at least aware. AG31 already tagged them in a few posts above, so perhaps we can refrain from further comment until they have a chance to give their views? This line of discussion seems to have slipped quite far from the thread's topic anyway.

Agreed! My whole point in referring to the story was simply to give an example to support somebody else's point (PSG's?) that scoring was the be all and end all. It wasn't to unpick it.

I doubt you'll hear from the author though. They don't follow any other writers, nor do they reply to comments. I don't think they are big on engagement with the wider community. Though they may surprise me!