Islam could get better

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Sure, Islam could get better. It could get worse as well.
Remember that any number of Islamic countries do NOT have a secular society, not even in principle, but governing and legal structures legitimized entirely by differing interpretations of Islam. Some 49 countries still have Blasphemy laws enforced by decades long prison sentences if not death.
Islam "getting better" (better how and for whom?) or becoming sidelined for secular government is not likely within your lifetime. Probably not for several lifetimes. If you really want to compare the evolution of religious authorities ability to exercise state power, it may be well to know that it's year 1436 in Islam. That means they're almost six centuries behind.
I refuse to wager on how long it will take before they get tired of slaughtering each other over differences in dogma, much less tolerating a society in which people can worship freely or (even more scary) refuse to worship any deity.

God promised me youll be captured by a homo sect of Muslim perverts.

 

[KingOrfeo]

I would contend--as I always do--that the fundamental issues are economic. Muslims are poor. You mention the secularization of europe, which I contend correlates strongly to the wealth of europe. Islam's root problem, if it is economic, is that Islam bans interest.

So there are no banks in Islamic countries?! Hard to believe.

 

[unregistered]

 

[oggbashan]

So there are no banks in Islamic countries?! Hard to believe.

Banks have to abide by Sharia laws which forbid usury - lending at a rate of interest. There are complicated ways around it that don't offend religious sensibilities.

Usury used to forbidden in Christian countries too. That is why Jews became Europe's bankers because they were not covered by the Christian code.

Some claim that the Knights Templar were suppressed because they had practised usury and the King of France owed them too much money to be able to repay.

Pay Day Loan companies really practise usury today - charging excessive interest. They would be banned under most versions of Sharia.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Pay Day Loan companies really practise usury today - charging excessive interest. They would be banned under most versions of Sharia.

Sharia is not all bad, then.

 

[NeverEndingMe]

islam is a fucked up cult

 

[astuffedshirt_perv]

So there are no banks in Islamic countries?! Hard to believe.

Certainly depends how you define "bank". Are there places with money? Yes. However, as pointed out, they don't charge interest. The "work arounds" add complexity to the process of borrowing money, which then has a negative effect on the economy.

In the US, the general plan in the face of a recession is for the Fed to lower interest rates, which then makes borrowing money more attractive, so companies borrow money to expand, hiring more people, CIG=Y and the economy booms. That is the theory at least.

Without interest you can't even have a Fed to set rates. Etc.

 

[astuffedshirt_perv]

It's not just economics, but education also. ... Education is key in my opinion.

Sadly, I have to disagree here. The ideal that education leads to economic prosperity works in the west. A young man with an education can put together a biz plan, go to a bank, get a loan with a set interest rate, and potentially make a good living.

Take the loan out of the story and a young man with an education will simply go back home and mop the floors of his uncle's grocery store. This can contribute to feelings of the world being unfair, an may or may not lead to desirable outcomes.

 

[1sickbastard]

God promised me youll be captured by a homo sect of Muslim perverts.

That reply says a whole lot more about you than it does me, gatorbait.

 

[LadyFunkenstein]

Atheism is one of many factors which destabilize society. (I am an atheist.) when atheism is on the rise, society is on the decline. I think Islam is going to have another hey day period again, especially since western countries all emphasize individualism one nationalism. Civilizations rise and fall, we all took junior high history and read about great civilizations who eventually were destroyed. Right now we have a group who straight up say they want to destroy our civilisation yet we make excuses for them.

My final thought, Islam will always breed violence unless they do away with polygamy.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I'd love to see some evidence that atheism is at all destructive. I highly doubt Islam will have another hey day either. They currently lack the resources to even attempt such a thing, they aren't going to get a foothold in America, their "power" in Europe is greatly exaggerated. Where are they gonna get power?

And yeah, they can want to destroy our society all they want, they can't do it, they can't even do serious harm to us. I think last year infants with guns killed more Americans than terrorists. And if you factor out 9/11 which should be done in an honest conversation terrorists simply don't kill Americans. They lack the means and honestly they clearly lack the drive as well. If they wanted to terrify us there isn't much stopping them from shooting up a Best Buy on black Friday.

 

[JohnnySavage]

All this talk about sharia and interest... oy vey!

Years ago, I did a lot of consulting work in Saudi Arabia and believe you me, there are banks there and they charge interest. Their construction financing is exactly the same as it is anywhere else in the world.

Also like everywhere else on Earth, religious dictates are merely advisory when there is money to be made.

 

[1sickbastard]

My final thought, Islam will always breed violence unless they do away with polygamy.

I'm curious:
Why is violence and polygamy related in your mind?

Christian Europe and the associated colonies in the Americas where decidedly not polygamous in strict terms of marriage, but there was still plenty of violence to be had, particularly violence among the various heresies to the Church, then among the various Christian Denominations in the post Protestant era.
More to the point, the only modern equivalent to a polygamous "Christian" denomination extant is the Church of Latter Day Saints, and they were more often than not, the ones being persecuted rather than the ones offering violence.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not a supporter of fundie Mormons and their practice of polygamy that often includes brides that are underage, in some cases children who have only just reached puberty or sometime prepubescent children. That shit just ain't right.

I am saying that I'm not aware of any linkage between polygamy (or polyandry) and violence.

 

[LadyFunkenstein]

Polygamy is only great for top status males and low status females. Why do I link it violence? Because when the wealthy male takes five wives for himself, it means 4 males at the bottom go without any women at all. They are genetically and sexual irrelevant which breeds frustration and violence. (Think Elliot Rogers fit instance ( That is why, fit instance, polygamous Mormons expel young, low status men from their ranks altogether. Islam has an Avenue to channel that rage. And that is why the virgins in the after life are a part of the bargain for sacrificing your life for Islam. They are sexually frustrated.

 

[1sickbastard]

Polygamy is only great for top status males and low status females. Why do I link it violence? Because when the wealthy male takes five wives for himself, it means 4 males at the bottom go without any women at all. They are genetically and sexual irrelevant which breeds frustration and violence. (Think Elliot Rogers fit instance ( That is why, fit instance, polygamous Mormons expel young, low status men from their ranks altogether. Islam has an Avenue to channel that rage. And that is why the virgins in the after life are a part of the bargain for sacrificing your life for Islam. They are sexually frustrated.

So is this an "everybody knows" sort of thing or can you support your point with evidence?

Also, do you hold similar views for polyandry?

 

[LadyFunkenstein]

So is this an "everybody knows" sort of thing or can you support your point with evidence?

Also, do you hold similar views for polyandry?

I can't support my view with a handy link if that is what you are asking. My view comes from reading countless books, watching documentaries, etc. (I do count young males being kicked out of society in Mormon sects an "everybody knows" thing so tell me if that is the first you have heard of it.)

But let's have a dialogue between us. Can you name a large polygamous society with happy low status (i.e. celibate) men? What do you suppose happens to to men who aren't allowed to mate?

I have no views of polyandry as I have not read/seen anything other than the occasional wiki blurb. If you can point out a modern day society in which polyandry is "officially sanctioned" and inseperable from the culture in the way that polygamy is in Islamic countries or in certain sects of Mormonism, I would be happy to read about them.

ETA: Now that I have given it some thought, I would bet polyandry would not lead to the same results. First off, women are not nearly as violent as men. Secondly, and this is purely a guess, female chastity outside of marriage likely is not a must-have trait. That would mean you don't have a large portion of the population walking around sexually frustrated.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

Polygamy is only great for top status males and low status females. Why do I link it violence? Because when the wealthy male takes five wives for himself, it means 4 males at the bottom go without any women at all. They are genetically and sexual irrelevant which breeds frustration and violence. (Think Elliot Rogers fit instance ( That is why, fit instance, polygamous Mormons expel young, low status men from their ranks altogether. Islam has an Avenue to channel that rage. And that is why the virgins in the after life are a part of the bargain for sacrificing your life for Islam. They are sexually frustrated.

I don't think Elliot Rodger fits into this, though. True, he was sexually frustrated, but unlike the low status have-nots, he was also a wealthy, privileged, racist asshole and closeted sociopath who just couldn't deal with people rejecting him for his shitty personality, partially because he was a silver spoon child who felt he deserved what he couldn't have.

 

[LadyFunkenstein]

I don't think Elliot Rodger fits into this, though. True, he was sexually frustrated, but unlike the low status have-nots, he was also a wealthy, privileged, racist asshole and closeted sociopath who just couldn't deal with people rejecting him for his shitty personality, partially because he was a silver spoon child who felt he deserved what he couldn't have.

The only reason why I bring him up is as an example that enforced celibacy (even if it is self inflicted) leads to violence. Him being rich/racist/an asshole is irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

The only reason why I bring him up is as an example that enforced celibacy (even if it is self inflicted) leads to violence. Him being rich/racist/an asshole is irrelevant to the discussion.

Kinda disagree. If you include him, then all that is entirely relevant to his resulting violence, especially since it was explicitly evident in his final diatribe before he went on his murder/suicide spree. His wasn't an actual celibacy, it was a lack of sexual gratification and status affirmation from being socially excluded and denied by women.

 

[1sickbastard]

I can't support my view with a handy link if that is what you are asking. My view comes from reading countless books, watching documentaries, etc. (I do count young males being kicked out of society in Mormon sects an "everybody knows" thing so tell me if that is the first you have heard of it.)

But let's have a dialogue between us. Can you name a large polygamous society with happy low status (i.e. celibate) men? What do you suppose happens to to men who aren't allowed to mate?

I have no views of polyandry as I have not read/seen anything other than the occasional wiki blurb. If you can point out a modern day society in which polyandry is "officially sanctioned" and inseperable from the culture in the way that polygamy is in Islamic countries or in certain sects of Mormonism, I would be happy to read about them.

1) I'm not well versed in Mormonism and am only slightly aware of fundie offshoots of Mormonism that practice polygamy, so no, I was not aware that young men were exiled from their communities if said community held to polygamy. Presumably, these young men find a community which both welcomes them and allows them to date/court or otherwise interact with women.
2) I have lived in Saudi Arabia. While readily admitting to a small sample fallacy, polygamy was not widely practiced, even though culturally acceptable. The most common joke among Saudi men is that they couldn't afford more than one wife even if they had the physical/emotional stamina to keep up with more than one wife.
3) Matriarchal societies have been rare enough in the human experience. The last time I'd even heard of any discussion of cultures which practiced polyandry, it was based around proto-European Earth Goddess cults. The sole exception was some discussion about a modern Isis cult in which the prospective high priestess had to have sex with some one thousand men per year, which didn't count her husband. And no, I have neither direct knowledge or proof that such a cult exists, so I gave the discussion little credence other than as an interesting conversation.
4) I do know that, globally, men outnumber women in all age cohorts until one reaches the 55+ age cohort. Also, there is little variance in the male/female ratios in most countries world wide, though there are exceptions.
5) I would assert there may be any number of factors influencing whether a society is "intrinsically violent" aside from the practice of polygamy. For instance, one of the most violent countries in North America (or the world for that matter) is Honduras (UNODC study for 2012) which also has a relatively equal ratio of men to women (CIA World Factbook). Honduras is an overwhelmingly Roman Catholic country and polygamy is neither culturally or legally sanctioned.
In fact, Honduras is a far, far more violent society than the PRC which has a far higher ratio of men to women or even Saudi Arabia, which is not only less violent (according to UNODC figures) but also has one of the highest ratios of men to women (World Factbook figures) as well as having polygamy both legal and culturally/socially acceptable.

Link to the wikipedia of UNODC figures: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Link to the CIA World Factbook: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/

 

[LadyFunkenstein]

Kinda disagree. If you include him, then all that is entirely relevant to his resulting violence, especially since it was explicitly evident in his final diatribe before he went on his murder/suicide spree. His wasn't an actual celibacy, it was a lack of sexual gratification and status affirmation from being socially excluded and denied by women.

I don't see the point in taking the conversation in that direction, nor do I understand why you insist on it. We have already discussed him ad nauseam. I regret that I brought his name up at all now because I have no interest in discussing him again other than a quick remark; did not think someone would seize upon his name and want to talk about him yet again. Let's pretend it isn't there so we can get back to Islam.

 

[LadyFunkenstein]

1) I'm not well versed in Mormonism and am only slightly aware of fundie offshoots of Mormonism that practice polygamy, so no, I was not aware that young men were exiled from their communities if said community held to polygamy. Presumably, these young men find a community which both welcomes them and allows them to date/court or otherwise interact with women.

2) I have lived in Saudi Arabia. While readily admitting to a small sample fallacy, polygamy was not widely practiced, even though culturally acceptable. The most common joke among Saudi men is that they couldn't afford more than one wife even if they had the physical/emotional stamina to keep up with more than one wife.
3) Matriarchal societies have been rare enough in the human experience. The last time I'd even heard of any discussion of cultures which practiced polyandry, it was based around proto-European Earth Goddess cults. The sole exception was some discussion about a modern Isis cult in which the prospective high priestess had to have sex with some one thousand men per year, which didn't count her husband. And no, I have neither direct knowledge or proof that such a cult exists, so I gave the discussion little credence other than as an interesting conversation.
4) I do know that, globally, men outnumber women in all age cohorts until one reaches the 55+ age cohort. Also, there is little variance in the male/female ratios in most countries world wide, though there are exceptions.
5) I would assert there may be any number of factors influencing whether a society is "intrinsically violent" aside from the practice of polygamy. For instance, one of the most violent countries in North America (or the world for that matter) is Honduras (UNODC study for 2012) which also has a relatively equal ratio of men to women (CIA World Factbook). Honduras is an overwhelmingly Roman Catholic country and polygamy is neither culturally or legally sanctioned.
In fact, Honduras is a far, far more violent society than the PRC which has a far higher ratio of men to women or even Saudi Arabia, which is not only less violent (according to UNODC figures) but also has one of the highest ratios of men to women (World Factbook figures) as well as having polygamy both legal and culturally/socially acceptable.

Link to the wikipedia of UNODC figures: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Link to the CIA World Factbook: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/

No, those young males kicked out of their Mormon communities actually end up really fucked up. You can't dump a 13 year old boy on the side of the road an expect a positive outcome. Many go on to star in "twink" porn or become drug addicts. Suicide is common. Google "lost boys" if you want to read about it. There have been countless articles written about these young men, you can find a source you trust quite easily. Here are articles from varying sources.

Salon
Guardian
Washington Times

Your bringing u Honduras is an "exception to the rule" which really isn't of help to the conversation. The discussion is Islam, and I say that doing away with polygamy would lead to an extreme decrease in suicide bombings. Honduras isn't relevant. That said I don't understand why you brought it up since you say they are one of the most violent countries and that they practice polygamy as well. Or maybe you are simply agreeing with me? Anyway...

Here is the best I can do in terms of giving you an easy link on the subject of suicide bombings and Islam which "backs up" my opinion. (Once again, like my knowledge of Lost Boys, it comes from a variety of sources.)

It's an article about many things, scroll down to section #4 "Most suicide bombers are Muslim"

According to the Oxford University sociologist Diego Gambetta, editor of Making Sense of Suicide Missions, a comprehensive history of this troubling yet topical phenomenon, while suicide missions are not always religiously motivated, when religion is involved, it is always Muslim. Why is this? Why is Islam the only religion that motivates its followers to commit suicide missions?

\

https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200706/ten-politically-incorrect-truths-about-human-nature

 

[IrezumiKiss]

I don't see the point in taking the conversation in that direction, nor do I understand why you insist on it. We have already discussed him ad nauseam. I regret that I brought his name up at all now because I have no interest in discussing him again other than a quick remark; did not think someone would seize upon his name and want to talk about him yet again. Let's pretend it isn't there so we can get back to Islam.

It's all good, I was with you on everything else except him, only because his situation was wholly different from having sexual suppression thru religion and being promised a gazillion virgins in nirvana. Just making the whys clear, is all.

Back to Islam!

 

[PoppingTom]

Why is Islam the only religion that motivates its followers to commit suicide missions?

Wasn't "kamikaze" a japanese word?

 

[LadyFunkenstein]

Wasn't "kamikaze" a japanese word?

I believe so. What is your point?