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It's really weird even to CARE about transgenders playing girls' sports

jomar said:
and the brain development in the second and third trimesters regarding sexual identity and sexual orientation.
Click to expand...
That is wishful thinking nonsense.

Nobody has a male or female "brain" because there isn't such a thing, much less being formed in the womb. And no one's sexual orientation is determined in the womb.

It's perfectly possible to support gay and trans rights without resorting to this ridiculous "born with it" argument. Nature does not have a magic crystal ball to see into the future.
 
Carnal_Flower said:
That is wishful thinking nonsense.

Nobody has a male or female "brain" because there isn't such a thing, much less being formed in the womb. And no one's sexual orientation is determined in the womb.

It's perfectly possible to support gay and trans rights without resorting to this ridiculous "born with it" argument. Nature does not have a magic crystal ball to see into the future.
Click to expand...
Actually:

Brains[edit]​

Neuroscience studies of trans people increasingly suggest that gender identity is in large part a biological phenomenon, as transgender individuals' brains have key structural differences, even before beginning hormone replacement therapy.[32][33] Indeed, hormone therapy could have otherwise represented a confounding factor, and so, many transgender brain studies specifically recruit those who haven't begun receiving HRT (except studies specifically examining the effects of HRT on the brain).[34] More precisely, tensor imaging studies suggest that while much of the brain structure of a transgender person matches their "biological sex", certain sections of the transgender brain may contain elements that are closer to the "biologically opposite sex".[35]

As for what causes this? Scientists don't have a clear consensus, but the prevailing theory is that during development, a number of extremely complex systems are at play as the fetus grows, and something interferes with the whole process. Genes play a role, but only in the chance of developing along certain paths rather than defining those paths. Just as residual testosterone in the mother's womb appears to alter a developing fetus's future sexuality,[36] various health conditions of the mother can impact the chance of a fetus developing a different brain structure. What's more, it appears that endocrine disrupting chemicals such as BPA (which is found everywhere these days) cause the "feminization" of male fetal brains.[37]

A 2016 review found that: "Untreated MtFs and FtMs who have an early onset of their gender dysphoria and are sexually oriented to persons of their natal sex show a distinctive brain morphology, reflecting a brain phenotype. These phenotypes are different from those of heterosexual males or females; the differences affect the right hemisphere and cortical structures underlying body perception." This is separate from the effects on brain chemistry of treatment with sex hormones, which causes "dramatic effects on the gray and white matter after short- to medium-term treatments but the long-term effects on the brain require evaluation".[35] This indicates a biological basis without anything as reductive as having a male brain in a female body.

Homosexuality has also been associated with sex-atypical brain structures, so how does that factor into this? One 2017 paper in Scientific Reports offers some distinction. The authors wrote: "Our findings suggest that the neuroanatomical signature of transgenderism is related to brain areas processing the perception of self and body ownership, whereas homosexuality seems to be associated with less cerebral sexual differentiation."[38] See also the above excerpt from the 2016 review. By one interpretation, this is consistent with transfeministhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png Julia Serano's description that her "brain expects her body to be female." She elaborates on her conception: that we have "subconscious sex and conscious (physical) sex [that] combine to form gender identity — and for the overwhelming majority of us, the two are the same."[39][note 3] Further, a 2019 study demonstrated a potential mechanism by which hormone replacement therapy can increase sense of body self-ownership in transgender people, and reduce anatomical markers for gender dysphoria in the brain.[40]
 
Carnal_Flower said:
And no one's sexual orientation is determined in the womb.
Click to expand...
Also:

Theories on the origin of homosexuality​

Genetic
​

There may be genes that predispose some men and women to be attracted to the same sex. Research is actively being done, but the results are so far inconclusive. It appears the environment has an effect as well. A so-called "gay gene," XQ28, was reported as having an influence on sexual orientation. However, the original study failed to be replicated.[15]

The mechanisms which cause an individual to develop a particular sexual orientation are still largely unknown, although most researchers consider it unlikely that any one particular gene or environmental influence is a dominant factor. The prenatal environment has been implicated as one factor.[16] Notably, this means that even though sexual orientation is not completely genetic (as demonstrated by identical twins with different orientations), many people may still be born immutably gay. As suggested by some, prenatal hormonal treatment may have an impact on the fetus's sexual orientation, possibly reducing the probability of homosexuality.[17]

Based on a reinterpretation of prior studies, a new hypothesis proposes that epigenetics plays a role in homosexuality.[18] Among the possible explanations are that these epigenetic factors change a person's sensitivity to androgens, thereby altering their orientation.[19]

It has recently been suggested that animals were originally bisexual, with heterosexuality being mostly the bias of reproduction.[20] This commonly known as the "Any hole's a goal" theory of sexuality.
 
Politruk said:
Also:

Theories on the origin of homosexuality​

Genetic​

​

There may be genes that predispose some men and women to be attracted to the same sex. Research is actively being done, but the results are so far inconclusive. It appears the environment has an effect as well. A so-called "gay gene," XQ28, was reported as having an influence on sexual orientation. However, the original study failed to be replicated.[15]

The mechanisms which cause an individual to develop a particular sexual orientation are still largely unknown, although most researchers consider it unlikely that any one particular gene or environmental influence is a dominant factor. The prenatal environment has been implicated as one factor.[16] Notably, this means that even though sexual orientation is not completely genetic (as demonstrated by identical twins with different orientations), many people may still be born immutably gay. As suggested by some, prenatal hormonal treatment may have an impact on the fetus's sexual orientation, possibly reducing the probability of homosexuality.[17]

Based on a reinterpretation of prior studies, a new hypothesis proposes that epigenetics plays a role in homosexuality.[18] Among the possible explanations are that these epigenetic factors change a person's sensitivity to androgens, thereby altering their orientation.[19]

It has recently been suggested that animals were originally bisexual, with heterosexuality being mostly the bias of reproduction.[20] This commonly known as the "Any hole's a goal" theory of sexuality.
Click to expand...
If you need this kind of pseudo-science to convince yourself that people are indeed gay, go for it.

I just know there are gay people, end of story.
 
Politruk said:
Actually:

Brains[edit]​

Neuroscience studies of trans people increasingly suggest that gender identity is in large part a biological phenomenon, as transgender individuals' brains have key structural differences, even before beginning hormone replacement therapy.[32][33] Indeed, hormone therapy could have otherwise represented a confounding factor, and so, many transgender brain studies specifically recruit those who haven't begun receiving HRT (except studies specifically examining the effects of HRT on the brain).[34] More precisely, tensor imaging studies suggest that while much of the brain structure of a transgender person matches their "biological sex", certain sections of the transgender brain may contain elements that are closer to the "biologically opposite sex".[35]

As for what causes this? Scientists don't have a clear consensus, but the prevailing theory is that during development, a number of extremely complex systems are at play as the fetus grows, and something interferes with the whole process. Genes play a role, but only in the chance of developing along certain paths rather than defining those paths. Just as residual testosterone in the mother's womb appears to alter a developing fetus's future sexuality,[36] various health conditions of the mother can impact the chance of a fetus developing a different brain structure. What's more, it appears that endocrine disrupting chemicals such as BPA (which is found everywhere these days) cause the "feminization" of male fetal brains.[37]

A 2016 review found that: "Untreated MtFs and FtMs who have an early onset of their gender dysphoria and are sexually oriented to persons of their natal sex show a distinctive brain morphology, reflecting a brain phenotype. These phenotypes are different from those of heterosexual males or females; the differences affect the right hemisphere and cortical structures underlying body perception." This is separate from the effects on brain chemistry of treatment with sex hormones, which causes "dramatic effects on the gray and white matter after short- to medium-term treatments but the long-term effects on the brain require evaluation".[35] This indicates a biological basis without anything as reductive as having a male brain in a female body.

Homosexuality has also been associated with sex-atypical brain structures, so how does that factor into this? One 2017 paper in Scientific Reports offers some distinction. The authors wrote: "Our findings suggest that the neuroanatomical signature of transgenderism is related to brain areas processing the perception of self and body ownership, whereas homosexuality seems to be associated with less cerebral sexual differentiation."[38] See also the above excerpt from the 2016 review. By one interpretation, this is consistent with transfeministhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png Julia Serano's description that her "brain expects her body to be female." She elaborates on her conception: that we have "subconscious sex and conscious (physical) sex [that] combine to form gender identity — and for the overwhelming majority of us, the two are the same."[39][note 3] Further, a 2019 study demonstrated a potential mechanism by which hormone replacement therapy can increase sense of body self-ownership in transgender people, and reduce anatomical markers for gender dysphoria in the brain.[40]
Click to expand...
Complete hogwash.
 
To be fair, and brutally honest, this is a VERY complicated issue that has been way to politicized and unfortunately, has caused an undue amount of backlash. Which is unfortunate.

My heart goes out to those who truly do suffer from gender dysphoria. It is a much rarer condition than people realize.
And I therefore have nothing against transgender people and I feel for their struggle to gain acceptance in society, especially in today's hate-fueled political climate and the way-too-trendy backlash against ANY sort of tolerance.

With that said, I would have to admit I am NOT in favor of trangendered males participating in women's sports.

However, my reasons for being against the idea are quite different from those of, say, tasty suck toy and whatever screen name(s) Hisarpy is using in this thread. Those people are opposed to it for the simple reason that they simply don't like trangendered people- and would like to see all of their rights stripped away.

My reasons however are practical: There are innate physical differences between those born as biological males and biological females. Biological males have more bone density, can attain more muscle mass more easily, for example. This would give a biological male/female transgender certain unfair advantages when playing any contact sport, particularly volleyball, where the issue has come to a head more than once. The risk of injury to the biologically innate females is greater. I WOULD support transgendered athletes playing on co-ed teams, however, but not on pure women's sports.
 
PaxNurgle said:
My reasons however are practical: There are innate physical differences between those born as biological males and biological females. Biological males have more bone density, can attain more muscle mass more easily, for example. This would give a biological male/female transgender certain unfair advantages when playing any contact sport, particularly volleyball, where the issue has come to a head more than once. The risk of injury to the biologically innate females is greater. I WOULD support transgendered athletes playing on co-ed teams, however, but not on pure women's sports.
Click to expand...
It's hilarious how you try speaking for others on their views of transgendered people, and then list off a bunch of agreeable conservative talking points that always get brought up on why transgendered males shouldn't be in women's sports. 😄
 
Those views I expressed are indeed agreeable conservative talking points, yes. I try to look beyond terms like "Conservative" and "liberal" and simply look for fair and rational arguments.

But I hear way too many people on these forums calling transgendered people "Groomers," Pedophiles" or "Degenerates" and what not- and advocating stripping away ALL of their freedoms. This is way beyond simply participating in women's sports which we can at least agree is not a good idea. That is what I have such a problem with.
 
PaxNurgle said:
Those views I expressed are indeed agreeable conservative talking points, yes. I try to look beyond terms like "Conservative" and "liberal" and simply look for fair and rational arguments.
Click to expand...
Well that's refreshing.
PaxNurgle said:
But I hear way too many people on these forums calling transgendered people "Groomers," Pedophiles" or "Degenerates" and what not-
Click to expand...
I think we can at least agree those three behaviors by anyone are bad and not in any way transgender exclusive by any means.
PaxNurgle said:
and advocating stripping away ALL of their freedoms.
Click to expand...
Exactly what freedoms do you think are being stripped away from transgendered individuals? What freedoms and rights do others have that they don't?
 
PaxNurgle said:
My reasons however are practical: There are innate physical differences between those born as biological males and biological females. Biological males have more bone density, can attain more muscle mass more easily, for example. This would give a biological male/female transgender certain unfair advantages when playing any contact sport, particularly volleyball, where the issue has come to a head more than once. The risk of injury to the biologically innate females is greater. I WOULD support transgendered athletes playing on co-ed teams, however, but not on pure women's sports.
Click to expand...
But it's still weird to care about it -- because transwomen in women's sports are far too rare to constitute a problem.
 
Carnal_Flower said:
That is wishful thinking nonsense.

Nobody has a male or female "brain" because there isn't such a thing, much less being formed in the womb. And no one's sexual orientation is determined in the womb.

It's perfectly possible to support gay and trans rights without resorting to this ridiculous "born with it" argument. Nature does not have a magic crystal ball to see into the future.
Click to expand...
Ok, based on your posts following this one your mind is currently closed to the science of sexuality. On this subject you’re clearly in the nurture camp, not the nature camp.

But just consider that epigenetics is sorting the biology and brain development of sexuality. A simple explanation: imagine a rock rolling down a hill. In the first trimester of pregnancy it hits a bump and if it bounces right the genitalia are female, left and male bits. In the second trimester the rock hits another bump and it it bounces right sexual identity is female, left the identity is male. In the third trimester if the rock bounces right the persons sexual orientation is straight but if it bounces a couple different ways they’ll be gay, bi, asexual or whatever. So, quite a few sexual permutations depending on which ways the rock bounces.

Thats what science is untangling and what @Politruk’s links are referring to. Are there environmental factors that nudge a person one way or another? Sure. But the science just might suggest, and this is me extrapolating but it could already be somewhere in the articles, that the underpinnings were already in place to grease the wheels, as it were.

As for sports, at elite levels, such as in cycling, testosterone levels are markers for competition eligibility. And @PaxNurgle is introducing other specifics to the argument that are interesting to explore.
 
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Politruk said:
But it's still weird to care about it -- because transwomen in women's sports are far too rare to constitute a problem.
Click to expand...
But here we are 9 pages in still talking about it. It is rare, but very impactful in some instances that are probably unfair to bio female athletes, like that college swimming thing. In other cases not so much. I recall a trans woman college golfer saying it was unfair for her to be banned because she’d lost considerable strength and distance because of hormone therapy so that she was on a par (yuck yuck) with the bio female golfers. Lots still to sort out.
 
Politruk said:
All they want from government is legal recognition of their psychological gender, in all matters where gender identity is legally significant.

That is no "privilege."
Click to expand...

That is privilege. Asking society to cater to your delusions is an absurd privilege....not a right.
 
jomar said:
Ok, based on your posts following this one your mind is currently closed to the science of sexuality. On this subject you’re clearly in the nurture camp, not the nature camp.

But just consider that epigenetics is sorting the biology and brain development of sexuality. A simple explanation: imagine a rock rolling down a hill. In the first trimester of pregnancy it hits a bump and if it bounces right the genitalia are female, left and male bits. In the second trimester the rock hits another bump and it it bounces right sexual identity is female, left the identity is male. In the third trimester if the rock bounces right the persons sexual orientation is straight but if it bounces a couple different ways they’ll be gay, bi, asexual or whatever. So, quite a few sexual permutations depending on which ways the rock bounces.

Thats what science is untangling and what @Politruk’s links are referring to. Are there environmental factors that nudge a person one way or another? Sure. But the science just might suggest, and this is me extrapolating but it could already be somewhere in the articles, that the underpinnings were already in place to grease the wheels, as it were.

As for sports, at elite levels, such as in cycling, testosterone levels are markers for competition eligibility. And @PaxNurgle is introducing other specifics to the argument that are interesting to explore.
Click to expand...
No, I would describe myself as a Freudian, meaning we are born with immutable sex drives, but the objects and nature of our attractions are developed in the course of life. At some point, the natural sex instincts are soldered more or less permanently to an object choice and take a certain form such as passive or active, which we cannot change.

There is a long period of indecision and development a.) during early childhood, where the whole process then goes into dormancy and then b.) at puberty, where it's reactivated again and then tends to take its final form.

There is a much longer process of "rolling down the hill" with completely unpredictable pathways and end points.

I find it silly to think nature looks into a crystal ball and says "Ah, yes, you will be attracted to tall, dark and handsome men with beards in the future." It's just stupid. Object choice depends on your family and environment.
 
SgtSpiderMan said:
Asking for something is a privilege??
I believe any American can ask for anything they want.
Click to expand...

No, what they are asking for is privilege.

Yea they can. They can even be super dishonest about it by calling absurd privileges "rights".

And everyone can point out how full of shit they are and tell them to fuck off at the ballot box. Because democracy.
 
UltraChad said:
No, what they are asking for is privilege.

Yea they can. They can even be super dishonest about it by calling absurd privileges "rights".

And everyone can point out how full of shit they are and tell them to fuck off at the ballot box. Because democracy.
Click to expand...
And you’d be wrong to say that people aren’t allowed to ask for a privilege.

What “right” are they asking for??
 
Nice to see some finally admitting the trans movement is wanting privileges, not "rights". 🙂
 
TastySuckToy said:
It's hilarious how you try speaking for others on their views of transgendered people, and then list off a bunch of agreeable conservative talking points that always get brought up on why transgendered males shouldn't be in women's sports. 😄
Click to expand...
As a former D1 athlete I will tell you that those of us that have periods, we are at a disadvantage. So on that alone, it is unfair. I have not been on this sight for a long time and based on this thread alone, I know why. So come after me all you want as I know the reality and what females face as athletes. And this is a women's rights issue but there is more backlash against females like me that stand up for my fellow athletes than support. And I am bisexual so have no problem with the trans community but want a level playing field for everyone. Start a special division if you like but sorry....... no bleeding once a month, you cannot and should not be competing against someone who does. Bye
 
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