Joe is running.

[BotanyBoy]

why the HATE towards those that CREATE and MAKE MONEY?

Because they can’t....

 

[SpeareChucker]

why the HATE towards those that CREATE and MAKE MONEY

and no hate vs those that get huge money and create NOTHING

sports/entertainment figures?

Are you not entertained???

He'll bring them death,
and they'll love him for it!

 

[SpeareChucker]

Because they can’t....

Saving them for last.
They will go quietly
into that Utopia...

 

[HisArpy]

why the HATE towards those that CREATE and MAKE MONEY

and no hate vs those that get huge money and create NOTHING

sports/entertainment figures?

Because Lemmings gotta lemming.

 

[Rightguide]

Liberal Washington Post Gives Biden's Opening Speech 4 Pinocchios!

Joe has managed to compile a career record of being 100% wrong on every foreign policy questions he's opined on. He once chaired the U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations as well.

 

[heathergives]

https://polination.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/creepy-joe-biden.jpg

 

[cleaver]

there is no hate against people who can make money.
there is no hate here in people who can create wealth.
there is though - and these are not a con/lib issues at their core -
a growing relevance to the ideas that:

the system is not fair to each to do these things...
(the recent tax bamboozle being one example - preying on the "ignorance" of average joe to spend their new found pittance up)

the concurrent ginning of the tax structure favoring those who are not living cheque to cheque.
(those - who it is promised will trickle down their new found benefit - instead, work towards taking their enterprises private and/or further enrich their executives (i.e.eiger, et ai))

there are indeed social issues that are not being seriously addressed -
having to do with disparities in wealth, educational opportunity, transportation and infrastructure, race, gender. basic housing - and the general chances that these disparities will hamper (the dream) of upward mobility...

these issues don't go to... give a man a fish...
they more go to... don't barricade the stream.

pump out the day's economic numbers and beat a drum...
it's all great...

then attack the fed - to keep saccharine in the system...
keep the corporate trough open...
(the administration is hyper actively trying to keep interest rates low... consumer savings rates non existent... under a "recovery" that was slowly finding momentum before the tax bamboozle to keep undeniably out of reach (to the average joe) housing and business - artificially kept cheaper for those who are wealthy to... accumulate)

it is not lib/con - or so lazily dismiss-able
to recognize that economic... and hence social, disparity
is at an all time high as the fucking false god dow soars.

and my view... which i do indeed consider to be moderately conservative,
is that the system is dangerously ginned - consciously ginned...

unsustainably ginned against average joe...

elections are easy.
the alternatives are not - and threaten all of us.

 

[bbx56]

there is no hate against people who can make money.
there is no hate here in people who can create wealth.
there is though - and these are not a con/lib issues at their core -
a growing relevance to the ideas that:

the system is not fair to each to do these things...
(the recent tax bamboozle being one example - preying on the "ignorance" of average joe to spend their new found pittance up)

the concurrent ginning of the tax structure favoring those who are not living cheque to cheque.
(those - who it is promised will trickle down their new found benefit - instead, work towards taking their enterprises private and/or further enrich their executives (i.e.eiger, et ai))

there are indeed social issues that are not being seriously addressed -
having to do with disparities in wealth, educational opportunity, transportation and infrastructure, race, gender. basic housing - and the general chances that these disparities will hamper (the dream) of upward mobility...

these issues don't go to... give a man a fish...
they more go to... don't barricade the stream.

pump out the day's economic numbers and beat a drum...
it's all great...

then attack the fed - to keep saccharine in the system...
keep the corporate trough open...
(the administration is hyper actively trying to keep interest rates low... consumer savings rates non existent... under a "recovery" that was slowly finding momentum before the tax bamboozle to keep undeniably out of reach (to the average joe) housing and business - artificially kept cheaper for those who are wealthy to... accumulate)

it is not lib/con - or so lazily dismiss-able
to recognize that economic... and hence social, disparity
is at an all time high as the fucking false god dow soars.

and my view... which i do indeed consider to be moderately conservative,
is that the system is dangerously ginned - consciously ginned...

unsustainably ginned against average joe...

elections are easy.
the alternatives are not - and threaten all of us.

BullShit

 

[SpeareChucker]

cleaver, we've talked repeatedly about how the tax code, especially the envy/income tax code and how it incentivizes the purchasing of indulgences by class and ability. It is, in the long run, more cost-effective to bribe the officials and regulators than it is to pay the tax. As long as taxes (like regulations) are targeted, then people are targeted and these targets have the ability to be moving targets. You might get the occasional hit, but it's not a very consistent aiming methodology.
The ugly beauty of our tax code is that those who control it are at once in the pockets of those who call the shots, those with skin in the game, and simultaneously possess the ability to sate the frustrations of the envy voter with legislation both hollow and off-target coupled with the fiery rhetoric and target aiming that earns them the power of the vote without them having a stitch of skin in.
This is why some of us who want a 'conservative' approach to the problem (which is also at once liberal, classic libertarian liberal) are, or are becoming, fans of the FairTax.org. Some would say that there are conservative methods to make an income tax more fair, some by flattening it, but as long as there is a tax on earnings, the wealth we create with our sweat, physical and mental, effort and ability, then the two factions mentioned will fight for their place in the code. The former will want the stability of, okay, this is it, I can just take less technical "income" and those who can never be placated unless they see the successful punished for wealth creation, not because they see it as a bad thing, but that somehow, if it doesn't put 'free' money in their own pocket, then on some level, it had to be a gain ill-gotten. Therefore, to such simple minds, it is the righteous duty of the government to take that wealth and put it in their pockets after all, it's only "fair" (the most unfair metric that mankind has ever devised).

If you want proof of the power and efficacy of this plan to be more equitable, fair and harder to avoid a healthy dose of social justice placation, just pay careful attention to the replies directed towards this post and the ideas in it. Oftentimes, the reaction borders on the visceral.

 

[BotanyBoy]

there is no hate against people who can make money.
there is no hate here in people who can create wealth.
there is though - and these are not a con/lib issues at their core -
a growing relevance to the ideas that:

the system is not fair to each to do these things...
(the recent tax bamboozle being one example - preying on the "ignorance" of average joe to spend their new found pittance up)

the concurrent ginning of the tax structure favoring those who are not living cheque to cheque.
(those - who it is promised will trickle down their new found benefit - instead, work towards taking their enterprises private and/or further enrich their executives (i.e.eiger, et ai))

there are indeed social issues that are not being seriously addressed -
having to do with disparities in wealth, educational opportunity, transportation and infrastructure, race, gender. basic housing - and the general chances that these disparities will hamper (the dream) of upward mobility...

these issues don't go to... give a man a fish...
they more go to... don't barricade the stream.

pump out the day's economic numbers and beat a drum...
it's all great...

then attack the fed - to keep saccharine in the system...
keep the corporate trough open...
(the administration is hyper actively trying to keep interest rates low... consumer savings rates non existent... under a "recovery" that was slowly finding momentum before the tax bamboozle to keep undeniably out of reach (to the average joe) housing and business - artificially kept cheaper for those who are wealthy to... accumulate)

it is not lib/con - or so lazily dismiss-able
to recognize that economic... and hence social, disparity
is at an all time high as the fucking false god dow soars.

and my view... which i do indeed consider to be moderately conservative,
is that the system is dangerously ginned - consciously ginned...

unsustainably ginned against average joe...

elections are easy.
the alternatives are not - and threaten all of us.

You’re in total denial about the hate and the political nature of those who can and do and those who cannot waging political and economic war against them.

It’s not ginned against the average joe except in the states that fail to value traditional liberal politics/free markets America was built on and prevent the state from ginning anything against the average Joe. These states tend to be blue and socialistic. Which is fine, I can’t wait for California to ban meat and NY to run taxes up to 90% and both to start putting white males into “re-education camps” so they know explicitly just how horrible they are for being born white and male.

So much progress.....

 

[SpeareChucker]

white males in camps?





Someone's Asian Privilege is on display...

 

[BotanyBoy]

white males in camps?





Someone's Asian Privilege is on display...

Asian, Jew and Latino males who don’t toe the politically correct line as set forth by the “progressive” collective and all powerful god state become instantly white.

Shit even black femlaes suddenly become “old white men” the second the so much as DARE question the hive....Candice Owens.

 

[SpeareChucker]

White Hispanic
White Asian
White native
White nigger...

 

[cleaver]

sc, i'll agree in great part to your analysis

and in it, you also open up those very visceral worms
having to do with the health and wealth of
this society
as it is now construed.

bboy,
i won't go down your path for... honestly
i haven't the energy
to convince you that viscerally, i do not deny...
in fact i fully recognize the...
(in many ways ginned up) hate on both sides of the economic chasm
that lies at the core of what you speak...

leave it to say that...
one side will never be able to "work their way " out of it
and the other
will have small incentive to address the very real disparity
(and all societal issues encumbered) until perhaps too late.

i believe you are in denial, perhaps...
in positing that a "free market america" actually exists.

bbx.... really?

so... back to sc;
i use the recent tax cut as an example really -
that it has been - i believe - an unnecessary, insidious disaster
that in no real way benefitted anyone but the already wealthy.

fair tax is interesting indeed... necessary perhaps... a vat-like thing that seems to work in countries that... indeed have more social(ist) agenda.

ahhhhh... that sticky rhetorical trigger word.

we forget that karl marx was not a revolutionary.
he was, by all counts, a scholar, a historian
who investigated the disparities of his time
with regard to the economics involved
and tried to identify the dynamics that had brought (england - europe)
to its then day...
and further, to decipher from that, its continuing dynamic
and outcome/consequence.

his manifesto after das kapital - was his (yes) revolutionary dream of a society without class/struggle...
leave that for histrionic debate in other threads...

i bring up marx - not as an exemplar, but as an analyst who at the core
understood the absolute dynamic that disparity is.
and while it is foolish to believe that all can be equally...
ambisious or talented or even positioned to do as well as the next;
without finding some way to address the causes
(and unfortunately, generations of algorythmicly burdensome symptoms)
of the economic disparities...
the very system itself becomes no longer fixable - volatile instead.

social-ism ( not russia/china or other usurper ) is simply an attempt in ways to forestall
what marx considered inevitable...
social goals fostered by government that 'the market' does not, will not bring.
we subsidize our government (through taxation) to provide defense, infrastructure, education, health care, etc...
in lieu of the lack of such 'benevolence' by that 'market'.

call it what you may, but...

the cost of doing business -
the cost to having a system sustain in which entrepenurial enterprise can flourish -
necessarily must be an economic check on the magnitude of economic disparity
with the greater goal being the greater good of the society in which it runs...

yeah. social - ism.
the very process that our government has bungled in so many ways
for so many years.
(again... so many sticky wickets involved that... i, for one, have neither the desire nor time to chase that particular phd)

suffice it to say that my position is quite simple:

it is not lib/con to recognize that
the current underlying economy
under the long current style of governance
has created huge and volatile disparity.

unless that is addressed...
(in stead of exploited)
the continued society's very health is at risk.

what are you gonna do? right?
how are you gonna fix it?

i don't know.
that's what these "philosophical" discussions are for...

in the mean time, all the awesomely awful indicators are noisily reverberating.

hate,
underpinned by real visceral issues,
then focused by self interested "players"
has polarized various sectors with rhetoric, violence... dispair

and abstracts far from the core problems.

the anointed arbiter, in this case our constitutional government,
has been likewise paralyzed by rhetorical - oft binary - love for the bloodsport of confrontation. (again... accept that monetary influence is a given as well)

the pluralism - the original intent; that seminal societal issues and common goals could be honestly brokered through the concession of liberty in government...
is a pale ghost at best.

lib or con, the broken-ness is obvious.

 

[SpeareChucker]

You are correct that Marx was not a revolutionary/radical.

He was neither a disciplined scholar. Ludwig Elder von Mises was particularly thorough in his discrediting of Marx's 'scholarly research' by pointing out that in his writings he promised a proof and never actually delivered one. His popularity was with political movements and types. His current day economic analogy would be Paul Krugman, a man popular because of his economic politics and not his academic economics.

I'm going to leave it at that since most of that was directed to busybody, which is a waste of time since his reply is going to be a mail-it-in variant of 'nigger.'

 

[cleaver]

You are correct that Marx was not a revolutionary/radical.

He was neither a disciplined scholar. Ludwig Elder von Mises was particularly thorough in his discrediting of Marx's 'scholarly research' by pointing out that in his writings he promised a proof and never actually delivered one. His popularity was with political movements and types. His current day economic analogy would be Paul Krugman, a man popular because of his economic politics and not his academic economics.

I'm going to leave it at that since most of that was directed to busybody, which is a waste of time since his reply is going to be a mail-it-in variant of 'nigger.'

again, i'll well grant your historical analysis...
marx could not deliver the math.
but then again, what sociology class ever could?
and further...
what economic class could ever deliver the math without a "ceteris paribus" when it comes to the decidedly un-math-able "society" factor in the equation?

shit! that's where fucking politics comes in!

 

[beew]

You are correct that Marx was not a revolutionary/radical.

He was neither a disciplined scholar. Ludwig Elder von Mises was particularly thorough in his discrediting of Marx's 'scholarly research' by pointing out that in his writings he promised a proof and never actually delivered one. His popularity was with political movements and types. His current day economic analogy would be Paul Krugman, a man popular because of his economic politics and not his academic economics.

I'm going to leave it at that since most of that was directed to busybody, which is a waste of time since his reply is going to be a mail-it-in variant of 'nigger.'

His economic propositions for a way forward were deeply flawed, indeed.
But he was an astute observer of the economic and psychological flaws of the previous system.

He was also great at reviving Fromm's theory of alienation.
While he applied it to the capitalist mode of production, his theory imo was a much better fit for where the neoliberal globalist doctrine that started in the 70's, brought the world today.

While there have been massive gains in terms of eradication of extreme poverty and diseases and cheaper stuff, the middle of society failed to see the gains promissed and became increasingly demoralised and dissatisfied.
-- The sense of community has gone, most people feel that the mammouths (State, Corporation) that gradually replaced smaller businnesses view them as simply wage slaves, replaceable nombers on a roll.
-- It's not just economics. The system is all about money and devalues people.

Liberals tried to counteract that with identity politics, but that only replaced the sense of community and coherence with self-focus and splitting. Now negative nationalism emerged, which is just as bad.

 

[beew]

His economic propositions for a way forward were deeply flawed, indeed.
But he was an astute observer of the economic and psychological flaws of the previous system.

He was also great at reviving Fromm's theory of alienation.
While he applied it to the capitalist mode of production, his theory imo was a much better fit for where the neoliberal globalist doctrine that started in the 70's, brought the world today.

While there have been massive gains in terms of eradication of extreme poverty and diseases and cheaper stuff, the middle of society failed to see the gains promissed and became increasingly demoralised and dissatisfied.
-- The sense of community has gone, most people feel that the mammouths (State, Corporation) that gradually replaced smaller businnesses view them as simply wage slaves, replaceable nombers on a roll.
-- It's not just economics. The system is all about money and devalues people.

Liberals tried to counteract that with identity politics, but that only replaced the sense of community and coherence with self-focus and splitting. Now negative nationalism emerged, which is just as bad.

ETA
Woops I meant the Old Testament, not Fromm who perfected it after Marx:

Is there any wonder why rates of depression are skyrocketing in first world affluent secular faithless/consummeristic countries, in contrast to dirt poor African or more religious communities?

 

[BotanyBoy]

bboy,
i won't go down your path for... honestly
i haven't the energy
to convince you that viscerally, i do not deny...

i believe you are in denial, perhaps...
in positing that a "free market america" actually exists.

yeah. social - ism.
the our government has bungled in so many ways


suffice it to say that my position is quite simple:

it is not lib/con to recognize that
the current underlying economy
under the long current style of governance
has created huge and volatile disparity.

unless that is addressed...
(in stead of exploited)
the continued society's very health is at risk

lib or con, the broken-ness is obvious.

No it’s not. But it is socialist to suggest the answer is government controll at the expense of individual liberty. Btw being that the philosophical ideas the USA were founded on are those of classic English liberalism, true conservatives are the liberals and all these jealous have nots who want government to go take from others to provide for them are not.

The USA has “screwed up” socialism because socialism is antithetical to the core political philosophies the usa was founded upon.

Resolving disparity and ensuring equity isn’t the job of the us federal government. Ensuring and securing the INDIVIDUAL rights of the citizenry is......liberalism and socialism are incompatible, you can be free or well kept, you cannot be both.

No I’m not, I’ve benefited greatly from the free/open markets and liberal ideology of the usa. Where as under a socialist regime most of my family was exterminated in the name of equity....starved and slaved to death to reduce disparity, for the sake of society. Along with half a BILLION other people in the last century.

So you were right, you don’t have the time to convince me of the wonderful joys of a totalitarian god state deciding what is equitable and what isn’t....who deserves how much wealth and who doesn’t. Probably won’t sell many refugees from socialism or their kids either. Socialism is fucking evil. Every bit as bad as nazism and with well over 20x the body count.

 

[neci]

pinche biden.

 

[cleaver]

No it’s not. But it is socialist to suggest the answer is government controll at the expense of individual liberty. Btw being that the philosophical ideas the USA were founded on are those of classic English liberalism, true conservatives are the liberals and all these jealous have nots who want government to go take from others to provide for them are not.

The USA has “screwed up” socialism because socialism is antithetical to the core political philosophies the usa was founded upon.

Resolving disparity and ensuring equity isn’t the job of the us federal government. Ensuring and securing the INDIVIDUAL rights of the citizenry is......liberalism and socialism are incompatible, you can be free or well kept, you cannot be both.

No I’m not, I’ve benefited greatly from the free/open markets and liberal ideology of the usa. Where as under a socialist regime most of my family was exterminated in the name of equity....starved and slaved to death to reduce disparity, for the sake of society. Along with half a BILLION other people in the last century.

So you were right, you don’t have the time to convince me of the wonderful joys of a totalitarian god state deciding what is equitable and what isn’t....who deserves how much wealth and who doesn’t. Probably won’t sell many refugees from socialism or their kids either. Socialism is fucking evil. Every bit as bad as nazism and with well over 20x the body count.

the greys, b boy.
the world works in the greys.

uniforms are for the ... committed.

 

[Que]

pinche cabron biden.

*nods*

 

[SpeareChucker]

again, i'll well grant your historical analysis...
marx could not deliver the math.
but then again, what sociology class ever could?
and further...
what economic class could ever deliver the math without a "ceteris paribus" when it comes to the decidedly un-math-able "society" factor in the equation?

shit! that's where fucking politics comes in!

Philip Wicksteed, The Common Sense of Political Economy
Ludwig Elder von Mises, Human Action, Socialism

The mistake made is the economic means are political desires,
that the sum of inputs equals output which explains such a
pernicious evil as the central bank (Fed) and paper money.

It is true that economy is the aggregate of single, individual contracts,
and that we can put math to the past, e.g., The Historical School,
But because, like climate, the more transactions you have, the more
economic prediction divorces itself from the micro zero-sum calculation
and reveals a chaotic system myriad with inputs possessing strange attractors.

The downfall of planners from Marx to Obama is that they felt educated,
erudite, astute and competent in Seldon-like prognostication of trends in
the masses that they could get out their and control like Uncle Toohey
when, in fact, they were playing the part of Canute, King of Tides.

Herr Marx was a charlatan of the highest order who managed to put to words
the fertile imagination of those feeling booted, spurred and born to ride...,
The fanatics of mass movements offering frustrated True Believers
the pablum of self-sacrifice, united action and the enrichment of their riders.

 

[DawnODay]

Liberal Washington Post Gives Biden's Opening Speech 4 Pinocchios!

 

[SpeareChucker]

the greys, b boy.
the world works in the greys.

uniforms are for the ... committed.

This is the plea of every mass movement and seeker of True Believers.
There is no black and white, Objectivity is dead; Subjectivity is the rule.
Follow me to a better shade of grey and I will keep you a
lighter shade of pale, but

the nature of the true believer is one who needs the black,
who needs a devil, a religion, a target to hate and who
abhors a pale pastel pallet of grays. He will naturally tend to black
for hate is at the basic core of man, driving both envy and excellence.

The love of self affects the frustrated as well as the man of ability.
What separates is the black and white demands of the former
who views self-sacrifice and rejection of gray as the salvation path.
An intellect capable of individuality, of living in the gray, is an outlier.