Just so you know - more Americans wanted Hillary Clinton than Donald Trump as POTUS

[LJ_Reloaded]

No one can refute that Clinton received more votes than Trump during this election. However, that does not make it a fact that more Americans wanted Clinton than Trump to be President. For that to be determined Trump and Clinton would have to be the only choices. My vote was for Johnson, as it was in the last election, but given the choice of the two repugnant major party candidates I would have voted for Trump.

You might wanna rethink that argument - now her lead is up to a staggering 1.5 million.

 

[Liar]

You might wanna rethink that argument - now her lead is up to a staggering 1.5 million.

Just passed 2 million.

http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/index.html

But you got to give credit to Trump. He did eventually beat Romney.

 

[Sean Renaud]

At the end of the day it doesn't make one bit of difference who had the most votes nor is it really clear that more American wanted Hillary, fuck the two choices logic and focus on how many people in various states stay home because why bother?

 

[Liar]

At the end of the day it doesn't make one bit of difference who had the most votes nor is it really clear that more American wanted Hillary, fuck the two choices logic and focus on how many people in various states stay home because why bother?

I know. It's just an amusing curiosity. Like the fact that a total of 105k votes is what got Trump his electoral advantage. Because Clinton thought she had a rust belt firewall when she didn't.

 

[Sean Renaud]

And it is amusing. And annoying because at the end of the day I DO believe more people wanted Hillary than wanted Trump. But I also know tons of people in California who don't bother voting, and not just Republicans who know they won't win, there are Democrats who know they won't lose so the numbers we're looking at don't prove much one way or another.

What I'm shocked doesn't get more play is the fact that we have every reason to believe that voter suppression happened. Apparently that doesn't actually matter to people.

 

[BotanyBoy]

And it is amusing. And annoying because at the end of the day I DO believe more people wanted Hillary than wanted Trump. But I also know tons of people in California who don't bother voting, and not just Republicans who know they won't win, there are Democrats who know they won't lose so the numbers we're looking at don't prove much one way or another.

What I'm shocked doesn't get more play is the fact that we have every reason to believe that voter suppression happened. Apparently that doesn't actually matter to people.

Which state banned anyone from voting?

 

[ifrtbttrflys]

You spend your benevolence trying to teach them that the USA is constituted a republic, not a democracy. But they do not listen.

You toil to point out clearly that because the USA is a republic and not a democracy, citizens do not democratically vote for any President - they republicanly vote for electors who then vote for the President. Just as citizens republicanly vote for Representatives and Senators to do their political business for them instead of spending their lives democratically doing all that political business themselves. But they still do not listen.

So still the term "democracy" is bandied about by almost all as personal fantasy continues to refuse to acknowledge the outright existence of factual reality.

What probably is best now for this continuing quagmire of total presidential candidate ineptness as an actual national learning experience is if the electors cannot decide on a 270 majority and the whole business then turns constitutionally to the House of Representatives for them to decide whom will be the next President, and the Senate to decide whom the next Vice President will be.

I sincerely wish for this to happen.

 

[Colonel Hogan]

No, she had more votes than Trump and the other candidates. To say she has a mandate over Trump, you would have to know where the other votes would go if it were only the two of them. There is also the possibility of increased or decreased votes if there were only two parties to consider, or if the results were based on popular vote.

Here's the only "mandate" that means shit:

Article II
Section 1.

The executive power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his office during the term of four years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same term, be elected, as follows:

Each state shall appoint, in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a number of electors, equal to the whole number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or person holding an office of trust or profit under the United States, shall be appointed an elector.

The electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for two persons, of whom one at least shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves. And they shall make a list of all the persons voted for, and of the number of votes for each; which list they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates, and the votes shall then be counted. The person having the greatest number of votes shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such majority, and have an equal number of votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately choose by ballot one of them for President; and if no person have a majority, then from the five highest on the list the said House shall in like manner choose the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by States, the representation from each state having one vote; A quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. In every case, after the choice of the President, the person having the greatest number of votes of the electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal votes, the Senate shall choose from them by ballot the Vice President.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Which state banned anyone from voting?

They made voting intentionally difficult for people they didn't want voting. I know that doesn't meet your standard but it sure as fuck meets mine. Hell one state was told by the courts to back the fuck up and they went ahead and did what they were going to do anyway.

Odd. Voting Rights Act gets gutted by SCOTUS, states immediately move forward with measures to make voting mroe difficult. Coincidence? OF COURSE because that's how the real world functions.

 

[Ishmael]

They made voting intentionally difficult for people they didn't want voting. I know that doesn't meet your standard but it sure as fuck meets mine. Hell one state was told by the courts to back the fuck up and they went ahead and did what they were going to do anyway.

Odd. Voting Rights Act gets gutted by SCOTUS, states immediately move forward with measures to make voting mroe difficult. Coincidence? OF COURSE because that's how the real world functions.

Precisely how was that accomplished?

Ishmael

 

[Sean Renaud]

Precisely how was that accomplished?

Ishmael

Shutting down polling places was the primary culprit.

 

[Ishmael]

Shutting down polling places was the primary culprit.

Got some details there?

Ishmael

 

[Sean Renaud]

You're serious? Even if I disagree with your conclusions you're generally well informed.

When Flores asked the county elections administrator, Patricia Barton, how low-income and disabled Latino voters were supposed to vote without a polling place in their town, he said she told him, “If you think it’s such a big issue, why don’t you shuttle them yourself?”

tldr: 868 polling places nationwide were closed between this presidential and the previous presidential election a good chunk of them in the South.

The plaintiffs are arguing for longer hours on the final day of early voting in Mecklenburg County — the state’s most populous and the home of Charlotte — where they expect to see a high African-American turnout. In Forsyth County, where Winston-Salem is, they argue the plan to cut early voting on Sundays is discriminatory because of that day’s popularity as a voting day among African-Americans there, and they’re seeking more polling sites during the first week of early voting. They seek Sunday voting in New Hanover County as well, and they’re also looking for more sites in Guilford County, the home of Greensboro. Finally, in Nash County, they say African-American voters are forced to travel further during the first week of early voting because there is no polling site in Rocky Mount, a largely African-American city and the biggest in the county.

tldr: Just the bold stuff.

Oh Wisconsin managed to get busted for gerrymandering, which the courts tend to ignore but this was too blatant to ignore.

On Friday, a three-judge panel of the Virginia-based 4th Circuit Court of Appeals blocked North Carolina's law that limited to six the number of acceptable photo IDs. The law also curtailed early voting and eliminated same-day registration.

The court said the North Carolina provisions targeted African Americans with "almost surgical precision

Now the voter ID law did get shut down but you can claim all you like that it's not racist, we'll see what the Supreme Court feels, the 4th Circuit states that it and some of the voter purges were and I repeat targeted African Americans with "Almost surgical Precision."

There are more articles but a lot of them but lets be fair, did anybody have any real doubts as what the goal of Shelby v. Holder actually was? This is America, we don't eliminate laws because they are horribly antiquated. We ignore the fuck out of them unless you pissed off the wrong person who has the time to pour over the laws and point out that it's illegal to park your horse here. Or insert silly law.

Did these things make a difference in the election? Most likely they did not, but that doesn't mean Republican hearts weren't in the wrong place, only that they in all probability would have won without cheating.

 

[Pairaclities]

Just passed 2 million.

http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/index.html

But you got to give credit to Trump. He did eventually beat Romney.

Just so you know - more Illegals wanted Hillary Clinton than Donald Trump as POTUS
And there is about 3 million votes.
Add in another million or so dead democrat votes and the argument swings.

Where's the proof?
It is out there but no one wants to talk about because it will make the US look banana republic -ish in the eyes of the rest of the world. Same thing happened with last 2 or 4 elections however there were enough legit democrat votes for Odickhead to win. Get over it and pass voter ID on a national basis for the pres. The states can fuckery themselves all they want.

 

[Liar]

Just so you know - more Illegals wanted Hillary Clinton than Donald Trump as POTUS
And there is about 3 million votes.
Add in another million or so dead democrat votes and the argument swings.

Where's the proof?
It is out there but no one wants to talk about because it will make the US look banana republic -ish in the eyes of the rest of the world. Same thing happened with last 2 or 4 elections however there were enough legit democrat votes for Odickhead to win. Get over it and pass voter ID on a national basis for the pres. The states can fuckery themselves all they want.

https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.192605075.4217/poster,220x200,ffffff-pad,220x200,ffffff.u3.jpg

I agree with you on one thing though, nothing wrong with voter id, in principle. The issue is state level fuckery in implementation. National id and automatic registration to a centrallly managed voter roll for every citizen. I'm all for.

 

[Pairaclities]

https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.192605075.4217/poster,220x200,ffffff-pad,220x200,ffffff.u3.jpg

I agree with you on one thing though, nothing wrong with voter id, in principle. The issue is state level fuckery in implementation. National id and automatic registration to a centrallly managed voter roll for every citizen. I'm all for.

It really is the only way to take away any question of legitimate winners - no matter which party that may be.

 

[Sean Renaud]

We didn't need voter ID for years and there is no reason to believe that in person voter fraud is happening in large enough numbers to give a shit about. When we're talking 31 cases out of more than a billion votes you're not talking about a problem. The reality is that enough kids get fake IDs for beer n shit that its hard to believe that if those 31 or even 3000 people needed to get ID in order to fake vote that they would manage it.

When the government ships you a Soc with your picture on it the moment you turn 18 that qualifies as your right to vote and while it will be connected to where you live for district purposes can be used wherever the fuck in the country you are at the time so be it. Like Liar stated it's not the principle that upsets me it's not being a moron and knowing that people are trying to make it more difficult for people to vote, oh and accomplishing it.

 

[Ishmael]

We didn't need voter ID for years and there is no reason to believe that in person voter fraud is happening in large enough numbers to give a shit about. When we're talking 31 cases out of more than a billion votes you're not talking about a problem. The reality is that enough kids get fake IDs for beer n shit that its hard to believe that if those 31 or even 3000 people needed to get ID in order to fake vote that they would manage it.

When the government ships you a Soc with your picture on it the moment you turn 18 that qualifies as your right to vote and while it will be connected to where you live for district purposes can be used wherever the fuck in the country you are at the time so be it. Like Liar stated it's not the principle that upsets me it's not being a moron and knowing that people are trying to make it more difficult for people to vote, oh and accomplishing it.

Voter fraud has been documented for ages now.

There is NO RIGHT TO VOTE. Yet another perpetuated myth.

Ishmael

 

[Sean Renaud]

Voter fraud has been documented for ages now.

There is NO RIGHT TO VOTE. Yet another perpetuated myth.

Ishmael

There is no evidence of wide spread in person voter fraud and you know it.

As for there not strictly being a right to vote you're not wrong but it's pretty fucking heavily implied.

 

[Ishmael]

There is no evidence of wide spread in person voter fraud and you know it.

As for there not strictly being a right to vote you're not wrong but it's pretty fucking heavily implied.

I notice your qualification re. voter fraud. Real ID is one step in the process and your qualification only emphasizes the need to take a few more steps.

That's right, I'm not wrong. A rather negative way of saying I'm right, isn't it? I'd be all for a campaign educating the public that voting isn't a 'right', it's a privilege. Perhaps in phrasing it that way it wouldn't be taken so much for granted.

Ishmael

 

[Sean Renaud]

I notice your qualification re. voter fraud. Real ID is one step in the process and your qualification only emphasizes the need to take a few more steps.

That's right, I'm not wrong. A rather negative way of saying I'm right, isn't it? I'd be all for a campaign educating the public that voting isn't a 'right', it's a privilege. Perhaps in phrasing it that way it wouldn't be taken so much for granted.

Ishmael

Because in person voter fraud is the only thing that voter ID would actually effect. I've seen lots of people try to bring up that x thousands of votes turned up missing in this primary, or that such and such state can't find an entire prescint or there was a fire or the computers were hacked. But the purpose of voter ID laws is to prevent Sean Renaud from voting as Ishmael. Not to prevent a St.Bernard from shitting on the ballot box and rendering all of the votes illegible.

No, you're not wrong in the most technical sense. Voting is not a privilege, it is not something granted to you on a whim that can just as easily be taken away. It is an integral part of being a citizen. You'll note that the suffrage laws specify all the way you aren't allowed to take away a persons permission shall we say. Nearly every method of denying a person to vote has been shot down.

 

[Ishmael]

Because in person voter fraud is the only thing that voter ID would actually effect. I've seen lots of people try to bring up that x thousands of votes turned up missing in this primary, or that such and such state can't find an entire prescint or there was a fire or the computers were hacked. But the purpose of voter ID laws is to prevent Sean Renaud from voting as Ishmael. Not to prevent a St.Bernard from shitting on the ballot box and rendering all of the votes illegible.

No, you're not wrong in the most technical sense. Voting is not a privilege, it is not something granted to you on a whim that can just as easily be taken away. It is an integral part of being a citizen. You'll note that the suffrage laws specify all the way you aren't allowed to take away a persons permission shall we say. Nearly every method of denying a person to vote has been shot down.

Did you bother to read what I wrote? You have to start somewhere.

I'm not wrong in the most legal sense. Voting is most certainly a privilege, and it can be taken away, not on a whim, but taken away none the less. Most people can't comprehend how close to the edge we live. The Obama presidency is an indication. Irritated with the inability to move his agenda through congress post 2010 he decided to rule via presidential orders. (Interesting that that didn't occur until after the 2012 election.) We bled to do away with Monarchies/Dictatorships. Even so there was a serious movement to make Washington a king. And it's likely that had he accepted he would have been. His wisdom, forbearance, and self-restraint still resonate.

Also, we aren't a Democracy and thank God we aren't (Hamilton was one of the instrumental figures is the creation of the electoral college).

Monarchies/Dictatorships rot from the top, Democracies rot from the bottom. The founders understood that. An understanding that is being lost.

Ishmael

 

[phrodeau]

It seems to me that every single type of voter suppression and disenfranchisement has come from the Republican side, and not the Democrats. Have I missed something, or is that just the way it is?

 

[water505]

The majority of Americans are in favor of requiring ID to vote. The only reasons liberals hate the idea is they want illegals to vote for them and believe black people are too stupid to obtain identification.

 

[water505]

It seems to me that every single type of voter suppression and disenfranchisement has come from the Republican side, and not the Democrats. Have I missed something, or is that just the way it is?

Every single type, huh? Those club wielding Black Panthers must have been a figment of the imagination.