Looking at the US gun law debate another way...

[kimber22]

I don't think the article put "Europe" and "Russia" together. I think Geography did that.

Russia borders Norway, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Belarus and Ukraine. All European countries. If Russia is not European why is it referred to as Eastern Europe? I guess in your world Eastern Europe is not part of Europe.

I'll be happy to give you all the time you need to come up with more insults since that's all you can do.

You missed the other borders of Russia: like, China, Kazakhstan, North Korea, Georgia... I'm not sure if you would label a country that boders China and Kazakhstan a "European" country... But from across the atlantic, that might look different...

However, in China live 1.3 bn ppl, in India 1.4 bn, in EU ~500-600million (depends whether you add Moscow or not^^), AND you in US have MORE shootings and killings and dead people from gunfights than everywhere else in the world... You also have more guys in prison than China and Russia together....

so, I'm not sure if it's really the best way you are doing your things....

 

[Ldy_Sea]

So you approve of what LaPierre has done?

What exactly are you referring too? The fact that membership in the NRA is at an all time high. The fact that gun sales have been increasing for the last 20 years. The fact that crime is down across the US. The fact tah every anti gun bill has been defeated since the Assault weapon ban wasn't renewed in 2004.

Yeah I would say I approve.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

You missed the other borders of Russia: like, China, Kazakhstan, North Korea, Georgia... I'm not sure if you would label a country that boders China and Kazakhstan a "European" country... But from across the atlantic, that might look different...

I didn't miss them I understand that Russia is on the border between Europe and Asia and some Geographers and Cartologists consider Europe and Asia to be one Continent, called Eurasia.

But the fact remains that Russia is EASTERN EUROPE not western Asia, so it is a European Nation.

However, in China live 1.3 bn ppl, in India 1.4 bn, in EU ~500-600million (depends whether you add Moscow or not^^)

Europe's population is around 745 Million, with 14% non white minorities.

AND you in US have MORE shootings and killings and dead people from gunfights than everywhere else in the world...

Not true the article I linked to earlier showed South America has the highest rates of killings and shootings than anywhere in the world.

And as I sstated before, the Murder rate in Europe is 2.1 per 100K and in the US it's 3.9 per 100K not a big difference at all.

You also have more guys in prison than China and Russia together....

Depends if you count the secret prisons for political dissidents, and the secret executions of people classified as enemies of the state, which do not happen in the US.

Maybe we have more people imprisioned, because we are able to solve more crimes. A better comparison would be the crime rates in each country, not how many people are in jail.

so, I'm not sure if it's really the best way you are doing your things....

Never said it was the best way, but a hell of a lot better than most.

 

[kimber22]

Depends if you count the secret prisons for political dissidents, and the secret executions of people classified as enemies of the state...

you mean, like Guantanamo... or Abu Ghraib...
you need a link to all your US detention (concentration) camps, you have in the world for all your »people classified as enemies of the state...« ?

Maybe we have more people imprisioned, because we are able to solve more crimes. A better comparison would be the crime rates in each country, not how many people are in jail.

Oh yeah! come on! no one in EU understands why you put your guys 20 years in prison for drug abuse... hihi

 

[phrodeau]

you mean, like Guantanamo... or the prisons in Egypt or Poland, or something...




Oh yeah! come on! no one in EU understands why you put your guys 20 years in prison for drug abuse... hihi

How dare you criticize the way the US treats its prisoners.

http://www.subversivetheatre.org/productions/palace_end/images/torture3.jpg

 

[kimber22]

How dare you criticize the way the US treats its prisoners.

Oh yeah, I'm sorry. I never wanted to critizise the US for what they are doing with their (legal or illegal) prisoners... The world notices anyway...

 

[Ldy_Sea]

you mean, like Guantanamo... or Abu Ghraib...
you need a link to all your US detention (concentration) camps, you have in the world for all your »people classified as enemies of the state...« ?

So you're comparing well known prisons where enemy combatants are detained according to the Geneva Convention (which doesn't apply to terrorists as they have no state and are classified as enemy guerrillas and can be executed on sight), to Concentration camps where 11 million non combatant citizens were worked to death, children were experimented on, and those deemed unfit to work were put in chambers and gassed to death.

That's a reasonable comparison to make [/sarcasm]

Oh yeah! come on! no one in EU understands why you put your guys 20 years in prison for drug abuse... hihi

Waring Graphic true story of drug use​

Guess you don't know what drugs do to people. My cousin is a deputy in a local county. He quit the police force he was on after dealing with two married addicts who suffocated their baby to death, cut it into strips, deep fried it and feed the remains to their dog.

They were caught when they tried to borrow a neighbors blender at 2am. The neighbor got suspicious and called the cops. My cousin was the first on scene and has been having nightmares ever since.

So you think it's okay to throw a brick at people who are peacefully marching because you disagree with them. but not okay to lock away people who have committed a crime, and are known be violent and have a high recidivism rate. Seems logical.

Until you see what a baby is like when he's born addicted to crack like another cousin of mine then talk to me about drugs.

 

[kimber22]

Maybe we have more people imprisioned, because we are able to solve more crimes. A better comparison would be the crime rates in each country, not how many people are in jail.

Oh yeah! I NEVER EVER have read such a stupid thing... Give me your crime rates! We (GER/AUT/EU) have about 95% (dt. Kriminalstatistik) in murder... all statistics in the world say, the US-statistics are lower...
--

btw, I got something for you:
http://www.vox.com/2015//8/27/9217163/america-guns-europe

»"America doesn't have more crime than other rich countries. It just has more guns."«

Maybe all the gun-PRO-guys should read some real articles now and then about their stuff? In the article one can also find some real numbers about homicides per firearm, per 1 mn ppl.

AUT: 2,2
SWE: 4,1
SWIZ: 7,7
US: 29,7...

 

[wildchild24143]

What exactly are you referring too? The fact that membership in the NRA is at an all time high. The fact that gun sales have been increasing for the last 20 years. The fact that crime is down across the US. The fact tah every anti gun bill has been defeated since the Assault weapon ban wasn't renewed in 2004.

Yeah I would say I approve.

Well every anti gun bill on a national level, California is illegally passing them almost daily. They have been sued for doing so and yet they don't stop trying to secretly pass rediculous anti gun laws

 

[kimber22]

So you're comparing well known prisons ... to Concentration camps ... where ... were worked to death...

No. I just wanted to show that most of the things you're saying is nosense.

 

[wildchild24143]

No. I just wanted to show that most of the things you're saying is nosense.

The problem is that our encarceration policy simply isn't working and all it is doing is encouraging recidivism

 

[kimber22]

The problem is that our encarceration policy simply isn't working and all it is doing is encouraging recidivism

Well, actually I see no incarceration policy, nor recidivism... I see a responsible US government that gradually begins to start doing things, where everyone in the world knows it's beneficial.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

How dare you criticize the way the US treats its prisoners.

http://www.subversivetheatre.org/productions/palace_end/images/torture3.jpg

This individual was court martialed for her violations of these prisoners rights. Just proving that the US follows the law even when we aren't required too.

The Geneva Convention only applies if both aggressor countries sign it. Iraq signed but never ratified it, making it invalid.

Afghanistan only signed The original agreement and Protocol I and II but not III or the changes to Protocol I.

Yet the US follows the whole thing for all Prisoners. Even when fighting non state sanctioned para military groups like ISIS which under international law are considered illegal/unprivelaged combatants.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

Oh yeah! I NEVER EVER have read such a stupid thing... Give me your crime rates! We (GER/AUT/EU) have about 95% (dt. Kriminalstatistik) in murder... all statistics in the world say, the US-statistics are lower...

I did provide a comparison of crime rates of the US vs. Canada Above.

Are you saying you have a 95% murder rate? That seems a bit high.

btw, I got something for you:
http://www.vox.com/2015//8/27/9217163/america-guns-europe

»"America doesn't have more crime than other rich countries. It just has more guns."«

Maybe all the gun-PRO-guys should read some real articles now and then about their stuff? In the article one can also find some real numbers about homicides per firearm, per 1 mn ppl.

AUT: 2,2
SWE: 4,1
SWIZ: 7,7
US: 29,7...

That article just proves what I'm saying. The US has more crimes related to guns, but we also have more people who defend themselves with guns. Those stories don't make the news because the left leaning anti gun media has an agenda.

Honduras has the highest gun murder rate per capita in the world yet they have a total ban on firearms.

Your article leaves out countries in South America that have significantly higher rates of gun violence.

But the actual crime rate in the US is so similar to other countries that guns don't make a difference. Maybe you should read what the anti gun NY Times wrote about guns.

Yes with more guns available more people are shot. Yet our crime rates are the same or even lower when compared to other countries. Maybe that has something to do with the 100,000,000 gun owners who don't shoot anyone, and stand ready to act to stop a crime.

Maybe if France allowed citizens to carry guns there would be be less than 130 dead and 370 wounded when three men attacked.

Why do you thing terrorists always go after places where people are not allowed to carry guns?

Why has there never been a mass shooting at a pro gun rally, in a gun store, at a gun show, or at an NRA convention? Could that be because where people are armed criminals go away?

 

[Ldy_Sea]

No. I just wanted to show that most of the things you're saying is nosense.

Calling your opponents statements nonsense. Good tactic. When you can't debate facts attack the person. I have provided links, and pictures you make claims comparing well known camps for enemy combatants to Nazi concentration camps, and you say my posts are nonsense.

Seems legit.

 

[Hard_Rom]

The European continent extends to the Ural mountains. So Russia by majority of population does fall within Europe. The Soviet era stopped cultural advancement dead in it's tracks so many prefer to not think of Russia as a part of Europe. They usually refer to us as Westerners as well.

Don't try to use crime or gun death stats to justify anti-gun laws. Gun nutters in the US willfully disregard them. You can quote any source you want, they just blow it off. Like evolution. No matter the scientific data, US nation creation mythology rules.

10,000 deaths per year from guns.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

The European continent extends to the Ural mountains. So Russia by majority of population does fall within Europe. The Soviet era stopped cultural advancement dead in it's tracks so many prefer to not think of Russia as a part of Europe. They usually refer to us as Westerners as well.

Don't try to use crime or gun death stats to justify anti-gun laws. Gun nutters in the US willfully disregard them. You can quote any source you want, they just blow it off. Like evolution. No matter the scientific data, US nation creation mythology rules.

10,000 deaths per year from guns.

Because crime rates are lower in areas with loose gun laws and higher in places with strict gun laws.

San Bernidino. Two terrorists shoot up an office party and police spend several hundred man hours finding and stopping them. Including having several shootouts with the suspects. 14 dead 22 injured.

Garland Tx. Two terrorists go to shoot up an art gallery that had a picture of Mohammed. An armed citizen sees them draws his gun and shoots them. Both terrorists dead, citizen took one bullet in the leg. 2 dead 1 injured

When the police stop an active shooter the average body count is 14.7

When an armed citizen stops an active shooter the average body count is 2.4

It can take police 6 minutes to respond to 911 in an mertopolitan area, longer if you live in the suburbs or rural areas. I can draw and put 6 aimed shots on target in less than 5 seconds.

If you want to see what it looks like to disarm a society look at CHicago.

7 dead 35 killed this past weekend in Chicago where the strictest gun control laws in the US exist.

Honduras does not allow any citizen to own a firearm and has the highesst gun related murder rate in the world.

So I think you mean anti gun fascists will distort teh truth and outright lie, like Katie Couric did to try and pass their agenda.

As for 10,000 deaths a year from guns lets look at the CDC study

65,000 people a year die in bicycle accidents. 515,000 are hospitalized. If it's about preventable deaths, why aren't we trying to ban bicycles?

In 2015 there were 10,560 people murdered with guns. 80% (8,448) were directly related to gang violence. Leaving 1,712 people murdered by guns who are not involved in gangs. In a country of 350 million. Better odds than the lottery.

Since 1993, the violent crime rate has been steadily decreasing as sales of firearms has steadily increased in the US. If there are more guns why are crime rates going down? Maybe citizens with guns prevent crimes. Like the 12,000 people a day who use a legal gun to stop a crime without firing a shot.

 

[kimber22]

In 2015 there were 10,560 people murdered with guns. 80% (8,448) were directly related to gang violence. Leaving 1,712 people murdered by guns who are not involved in gangs. In a country of 350 million. Better odds than the lottery.

10.000+ people get killed with guns... that's CRAZY !!!
but it's not all directly related to gang violence. 1.700+ guys were "ONLY" murdered... "only"... You were just shot and killed...
like: That happens in US. Sometimes you go to supermarket and buy milk, and sometimes you go to supermarket and get shot... like: that happens, that's completly normal in US...

Why you not understand, you stupid Europeans!? Sometimes your children go to school and lern math and geography and history, and sometimes they go to school and have a massacre... like: nothing to worry about, happens every couple of years in US Highschools...

 

[phrodeau]

Your statistics are from the NRA, now aren't they? That bicycle fatality number is pure fiction. http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/pedestrians-and-bicyclists/fatalityfacts/bicycles/2014

http://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-nra-kills-gun-violence-research-2013-1

How The NRA Killed Federal Funding For Gun Violence Research

The CDC isn't allowed to pursue many kinds of gun research due to the lobbying strength of the National Rifle Association.

As a result of the National Rifle Association's lobbying efforts, governmental research into gun mortality has shrunk by 96 percent since the mid-1990s, according to Reuters.

Because of the NRA's successful campaign to eliminate the scientific research into the public health effect of firearms, very few researchers specialize in the field anymore, University of California, Davis, professor Garen Wintemute told Reuters. He said there isn't enough money to sustain research.

Since there is a lack of funding for independent research, the gun debate has been lacking in unimpeachable statistics that could effect a change in the status quo.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

Your statistics are from the NRA, now aren't they? That bicycle fatality number is pure fiction. http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/pedestrians-and-bicyclists/fatalityfacts/bicycles/2014

http://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-nra-kills-gun-violence-research-2013-1

This is the second tiime you state that I am using NRA stats. Once again NOPE!

What you quoted was true until Obama ordered the CDC to do a study on gun violence after the Newton Shooting. The ban was lifted and one study was conducted. THe actual study was never released to the public, it was reviewed by news agencies after requesting it under FOIA and little was published in mainstream media.

One source that reported on this study is the left leaning anti-gun Slate website
http://www.slate.com/articles/healt..._deaths_and_self_defense_findings_from_a.html

Another is Guns and Ammo, obviously pro gun.
http://www.gunsandammo.com/politics/cdc-gun-research-backfires-on-obama/

Both report basically the same facts. The biggest being that GUNS DO PREVENT CRIME!

As for the stats I cited above, they came from a 48 page cdc report I looked over the other day and I really don't feel like scanning it again to find those numbers. But it was definitly not the NRA>

 

[Ldy_Sea]

10.000+ people get killed with guns... that's CRAZY !!!
but it's not all directly related to gang violence. 1.700+ guys were "ONLY" murdered... "only"... You were just shot and killed...
like: That happens in US. Sometimes you go to supermarket and buy milk, and sometimes you go to supermarket and get shot... like: that happens, that's completly normal in US...

Why you not understand, you stupid Europeans!? Sometimes your children go to school and lern math and geography and history, and sometimes they go to school and have a massacre... like: nothing to worry about, happens every couple of years in US Highschools...

And people getting beaten to death doesn't happen in Canada... oh wait it does at greater rates than in the US.

How many Brits have had their heads chopped off in London as people stood around watching. Just one armed person and that solider would be alive.

Read the articles on my previous post Once again showing guns save lives.

Yes horrible things happen in every country. But responsible armed teachers could stop these people from committing these horrendous acts. Yet people use emotions instead of logic and say lets put up no guns signs instead of letting people defend themselves.

495 people were murdered in Chicago last year. Where is the public outcry for those deaths. Why can't the citizens of Chicago arm themselves to protect themselves from the gangs?

 

[about_average]

I never denied that one of the reasons the NRA was founded was to promote marksmanship. I even said that the fact that southern troops were better shots than federal troops was a big reason for the founding.

Words have meaning.

You said "founded to defend gun rights" which is not true. Just because you later added (when I called you on it) "oh yeah, they also promoted marksmanship" doesn't make your original statement any less false.

If you go to the gun store to buy a magazine for your pistol and while there decide to buy a pair of ear plugs would you tell a friend "I went to the gun store to buy some ear plugs"?

Just admit you don't know what you're talking about. Like your denial that the NRA was at the forefront of passing restrictive gun laws for decades, in fact for almost a century.

 

[phrodeau]

And people getting beaten to death doesn't happen in Canada... oh wait it does at greater rates than in the US.

How many Brits have had their heads chopped off in London as people stood around watching. Just one armed person and that solider would be alive.

Read the articles on my previous post Once again showing guns save lives.

Yes horrible things happen in every country. But responsible armed teachers could stop these people from committing these horrendous acts. Yet people use emotions instead of logic and say lets put up no guns signs instead of letting people defend themselves.

495 people were murdered in Chicago last year. Where is the public outcry for those deaths. Why can't the citizens of Chicago arm themselves to protect themselves from the gangs?

Then let's give out guns to gang members so that they can defend themselves from the other gang members causing all the shootings.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Toronto which just recently overtook Chicago as the 4th largest city in NA had 23 murders total last year. Canada with a population of 35 millions has on average 500 murders total. California with 35 million had 1600. Which is down substantially from the 2500 in 2005. Maybe the strict gun laws that Cali keeps trying to enact are working.

 

[L1tTleD1fferent]

Saw news teaser last night about Istanbul & (right out loud) said, "How long before US sends people there?! How many talk shows will point out it's in Turkey in reference to dumb idea to send US troops there?"

Let's not worry about US gun laws all that much when most government folks will allow their constituents to be killed by guns here or in other countries we have no business being in with equal apathy.