Looking at the US gun law debate another way...

[kimber22]

There are 6 month old children on the no fly list, and a 103 year old woman on the terror watch list. Sen. Ted Kennedy was on the No Fly List, as are other government officals.

Well, if the No-Fly-List is not good. Why not make a No-Gun-List?

 

[about_average]

Well, doesn't that go for almost all terrorists in US history?

- The vast majority ... on watch lists have never been charged with, much less convicted of, a crime..
- Owning a gun is their right which can not be removed.
- Taking away their guns would be unconstitutional

No, I really don't see how that's gonna work. Maybe, the point is to give just ALL Americans a Kalashnikov, and ALL prospective terrorists a thick gun, and THEN just let them play it all out? The stronger survive?

Doesn't what go for them?

You completely missed the point. A significant number of citizens on the lists, especially the no-fly list, aren't terrorists or even potential terrorists.

Why should I be deprived of a constitutional right, with no recourse, because of a clerical error?

 

[phrodeau]

I guess Madam Math doesn't know how a calendar works.

 

[kimber22]

Doesn't what go for them?

You completely missed the point. A significant number of citizens on the lists, especially the no-fly list, aren't terrorists or even potential terrorists.

Why should I be deprived of a constitutional right, with no recourse, because of a clerical error?

oh no, it is you who doesn't get the point: I understand that it is some very special thing with you and your guns... but you have more shootings and killings in a single city in a week than we (in Europe) have in a whole country in a year... so, from time to time, I think, one should think about his or her doings...

 

[about_average]

The NRA still promotes markmanship. They also fought to allow Blacks and Native Americans to have the right to own guns. Hence Gun rights.

Marksmanship is a very minor part of their activities these days.

I often get mail solicitations from the NRA, a minuscule amount of it has anything to do with anything other that "gun rights"
Even going to their web site there is nothing about marksmanship. Of the seven prominent links displayed none are about marksmanship and three are about gun rights.

Again, you said the NRA was "founded to defend gun rights". That's patently false. They were leaders in passing more restrictive gun laws.

A source listed as progressive news defending why the president couldn't get anything done with a Democratic majority in both houses. That's a legit source.

Attack the source rather than the data

Tell me why not a single budget was passed when all that takes is a simple majority vote. 51 senators voting yay on a budget, it passes. Yet that wasn't done when the Democrats were the majority. Is it anywomder Obama doubled the debt from 10 trillion to 19 trillion. It took 220 years and 44 presidents to do, Obama did in less than 8.

Not really anything to do with the topic at hand.

Wow. I guess a year only has 72 days. Just becasue congress isn't in session that doesn't mean that the party in control relinquishes that control.

There's nothing to control with congress isn't in session as no business happens.

This is the same thing every president had to deal with. None of them failed to pass a budget during their entire term.

No other president had the Credit rating of the US lowered twice...or even once.

No other president had teh lowest workforce participation rate since the great depression.

But blame everyone else.

Again, nothing to do with the topic of discussion. You're starting to 'debate" like plt.

 

[about_average]

oh no, it is you who doesn't get the point: I understand that it is some very special thing with you and your guns... but you have more shootings and killings in a single city in a week than we (in Europe) have in a whole country in a year... so, from time to time, I think, one should think about his or her doings...

No, it has nothing to do with my guns. I've known for a long time that the lists are a fucked up mess. But most people just don't give a shit about people getting fucked over by the government when it doesn't happen to them.

How would you like it if there was a no drive list, not one on the list allowed a license to drive, and your name got added by a clerical error and you found out next time you went to renew and when you asked why you were told nothing and there was no way for you to appeal it? Or if you were able to appeal it cost you 10's of thousands of dollars?
Would you say, "Well, at least no terrorists are going to be parking bomb laden cars around the city."

And driving isn't even a constitutional right.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

Oh yeah, I love all you US-guys referring to the Swiss Gun Laws... I bet most of you dont' even know where Swizerland is...

Because knowing geography is important in a gun debate.

There it is clearly stated:

One can buy a gun who:
1) must be 18 yrs old
2) must not have any reason that makes him/her not allow to get a gun
3) must not be known to the Swiss Authorities in terms of being something like dangerous or something...

US Federal Gun Laws

1) Must be 18 to buy a long gun (Rifle, Shot gun etc...) Must be 21 to buy a handgun, (unless you are in the military)

2) Must pass a Federal background check. Anyone convicted of any felony including DUI, or embezzling), convicted of violent misdemeanors, or under an order of protection, is not allowed to buy a gun. If you meet the above and try to buy a gun, it's a federal felony.

3) In the US we assume that you are innocent until a court of law determines you are guilty. Just suspecting someone to be dangerous is not enough to take away their civil rights.

This does not include the classes, testing and training required in certain states to buy a gun. As each state makes it's own laws they are too different to list here.

Seems that our laws are pretty similar to Switzerlands.

So, that is clearly a "European Gun Law": Guns are given to guys who are tested by the authorities. THEN, they get a gun.
YOU, Americans give your Guns to everyone,

No one in the US is given a gun. If I go buy a gun and give it to my husband, that is a felony. Even if we are both legally allowed to own a gun. Everyone who owns a gun bough it themselves with their own money.

To buy a gun you must go to a Federally Licensed Firearms dealer, fill out a four page form, provide at least two forms of ID, and then have your name and other information given to the FBI who conducts a criminal history check. Then they either approve or deny the sale.

and THEN, afterwards you complain that the guys you gave the guns to, made a horrible massacre with it. WE, in Europe don't give THESE guys a gun. YOU give them a gun and then always complain why all these horrible things happen...

So explain how guns are bad when you admit Switzerland lets all law abiding citizens own guns. Lowest murder rate in the world.

Explain why Honduras has the highest firearm related death rate in the world when all guns are banned.

How did Frances gun ban work out? How many died?

Germany bans guns. wasn't there just an incident there with a man with a gun? 25 people injured.

But blame an inanimate object instead of people.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

Well, if the No-Fly-List is not good. Why not make a No-Gun-List?

Because under our system of laws no person may be "Deprived of Life, Liberty, or Due Process without due proces of law."

How would changing a name make something different. If that worked then lets call guns sunshine. Everyone would love them right?

As long as the list is secret with no way to know who is on it or any way to get off it, it is a violation of our laws and should not be used to deprive innocent people of their rights.

Besides a No Gun List exists, it's called NCIC National Crime Information Center. It has a list of everyone who is not allowed to buy a gun because they are convicted criminals. Everyone who trys to buy a gun from an FFL holder anywhere in the US is run through this database.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

oh no, it is you who doesn't get the point: I understand that it is some very special thing with you and your guns... but you have more shootings and killings in a single city in a week than we (in Europe) have in a whole country in a year... so, from time to time, I think, one should think about his or her doings...

Yes we have more guns and more people are killed by guns.

How about total murder rates? wouldn't that be a more accurate reflection of how violent a society is?

The US with a population of about 350 Million has a Murder Rate of 3.8 people per 100,000 citizens.

The EU with a population of 745 Million (well less now that Britain voted for freedom) has a murder rate of 2.1 per 100,000 citizens.

So that's 1.7 more people murdered in the US for every 100K citizens than in the EU. Sociologists attribute that to the difference in the diversity of the populations.

The EU is about 14% non white. The US is about 30% non white. In other words each country in the EU has a common language, common history and very little divesity.

So if our murder rates are so similar, why is the gun being blamed, not the person who commits the crime?

 

[Paul_Chance]

I love sunshine.

Go to NRA.org, click Menu, then select programs. It is a comprehensive listing of all the safety and training resources the NRA provides. It's quite extensive.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

Marksmanship is a very minor part of their activities these days.

Really? I guess that's why I know 40 NRA certified instructors who teach people to shoot, including myself.

I often get mail solicitations from the NRA, a minuscule amount of it has anything to do with anything other that "gun rights"

I often get mail solicitatons from Car delearships. very little has to do with their maintenance departments. Does that mean they don't exist?

Even going to their web site there is nothing about marksmanship. Of the seven prominent links displayed none are about marksmanship and three are about gun rights.

You mist not have looked too hard. Click teh menu ling and second item is NRA programs. Under that there are links for Training Law Enforcement Officers, Links to find NRA instructors near where you live, links to find NRA affiliated shooting clubs where you can go to shoot or learn to shoot. Took me about 5 seconds to find it.

Again, you said the NRA was "founded to defend gun rights". That's patently false. They were leaders in passing more restrictive gun laws.

According to??

Attack the source rather than the data

When the source is blatantly promoting an agenda it is not reliable. That would go for any source.

Not really anything to do with the topic at hand.

Except for refuting claims by your biased source. But nothing to do with the topic.

There's nothing to control with congress isn't in session as no business happens.

Because they don't have meetings to discuss the upcoming agenda or to try and get votes for a piece of legislation they want to pass or stop from passing. But no business happens.

Again, nothing to do with the topic of discussion. You're starting to 'debate" like plt.

Again it refutes your source. It states that the president wasn't able to do anything because he only had a limited time to work with congress. Just like every other president in history. Same numbers of days. Most every other president got things done and most improved the country, a few made things worse.

But not one constantly complained about his predecessor well into their second term.

 

[Hard_Rom]

I love sunshine.

Go to NRA.org, click Menu, then select programs. It is a comprehensive listing of all the safety and training resources the NRA provides. It's quite extensive.

Extensive doesn't mean effective.

 

[about_average]

Go to NRA.org, click Menu, then select programs. It is a comprehensive listing of all the safety and training resources the NRA provides. It's quite extensive.

Even going to their web site there is nothing about marksmanship. Of the seven prominent links displayed none are about marksmanship and three are about gun rights.

Yes, the first sentence was poorly worded. It should have read, "...without digging for it."
I know they still promote the two things, so I took that to be understood.

If marksmanship and safety were high on their list of priorities, like it was when they were founded and in to the 70's, it would be prominent on the front page and in their solicitations to join. Like it was in the stuff I got from them in the 60's and early 70's.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

Yes, the first sentence was poorly worded. It should have read, "...without digging for it."
I know they still promote the two things, so I took that to be understood.

If marksmanship and safety were high on their list of priorities, like it was when they were founded and in to the 70's, it would be prominent on the front page and in their solicitations to join. Like it was in the stuff I got from them in the 60's and early 70's.

NRA Bylaws Article II
The purposes and objectives of the National Rifle Association of America are:
1. To protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, especially with reference to the inalienable right of the individual American citizen guaranteed by such Constitution to acquire, possess, collect, exhibit, transport, carry, transfer ownership of, and enjoy the right to use arms, in order that the people may always be in a position to exercise their legitimate individual rights of self-preservation and defense of family, person, and property, as well as to serve effectively in the appropriate militia for the common defense of the Republic and the individual liberty of its citizens;
2. To promote public safety, law and order, and the national defense;
3. To train members of law enforcement agencies, the armed forces, the militia, and people of good repute in marksmanship and in the safe handling and efficient use of small arms;
4. To foster and promote the shooting sports, including the advancement of amateur competitions in marksmanship at the local, state, regional, national, and international levels;
5. To promote hunter safety, and to promote and defend hunting as a shooting sport and as a viable and necessary method of fostering the propagation, growth and conservation, and wise use of our renewable wildlife resources.
The Association may take all actions necessary and proper in the furtherance of these purposes and objectives.

You have to defend the ability to do something in order to teach people how to do it.

The NRA has an Annual meeting every year and members vote on what the priorities are.

If the 2A goes away, no one can be taught how to shoot. So first defend the right to own and use firearms, then teach people how to use them.

In the 60's and 70's no one was trying to ban guns. Even Democrats were pro gun for the most part.

The political landscape changed and so did the mission of the NRA. In the 60's my dad would take his rifle to the gun range in NYC strapped to his back, on a bus. Try doing that today in NYC.

If the NRA didn't teach people to shoot, then where would the next generation of supporters come from?

Again the links for training are so well hidden it took me 5 seconds and two mouse clicks to find them. God forbid they don't put everything on the front page.

 

[sr71plt]

Extensive does mean effective.

Doesn't?

 

[Hard_Rom]

Doesn't?

Corrected

 

[NeverEndingMe]

Doesn't?

how do we deport you and your kind to Cuba?

 

[phrodeau]

NRA Bylaws Article II
The purposes and objectives of the National Rifle Association of America are:
1. To protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, especially with reference to the inalienable right of the individual American citizen guaranteed by such Constitution to acquire, possess, collect, exhibit, transport, carry, transfer ownership of, and enjoy the right to use arms, in order that the people may always be in a position to exercise their legitimate individual rights of self-preservation and defense of family, person, and property, as well as to serve effectively in the appropriate militia for the common defense of the Republic and the individual liberty of its citizens;
2. To promote public safety, law and order, and the national defense;
3. To train members of law enforcement agencies, the armed forces, the militia, and people of good repute in marksmanship and in the safe handling and efficient use of small arms;
4. To foster and promote the shooting sports, including the advancement of amateur competitions in marksmanship at the local, state, regional, national, and international levels;
5. To promote hunter safety, and to promote and defend hunting as a shooting sport and as a viable and necessary method of fostering the propagation, growth and conservation, and wise use of our renewable wildlife resources.
The Association may take all actions necessary and proper in the furtherance of these purposes and objectives.

You have to defend the ability to do something in order to teach people how to do it.

The NRA has an Annual meeting every year and members vote on what the priorities are.

If the 2A goes away, no one can be taught how to shoot. So first defend the right to own and use firearms, then teach people how to use them.

In the 60's and 70's no one was trying to ban guns. Even Democrats were pro gun for the most part.

The political landscape changed and so did the mission of the NRA. In the 60's my dad would take his rifle to the gun range in NYC strapped to his back, on a bus. Try doing that today in NYC.

If the NRA didn't teach people to shoot, then where would the next generation of supporters come from?

Again the links for training are so well hidden it took me 5 seconds and two mouse clicks to find them. God forbid they don't put everything on the front page.

Hmm... not a word about semi-automatics, then? They seem to devote a great deal of attention to semi-automatics. Not a part of their mission, is it?

 

[Ldy_Sea]

Hmm... not a word about semi-automatics, then? They seem to devote a great deal of attention to semi-automatics. Not a part of their mission, is it?

Other words not found in that document, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Handgun, revolver, assault weapon, elephant gun,... I could go on,

The word that is in that document is ARMS which includes all of the above and more.

And before you say anything about "small arms", the definition of small arms is any weapon that can be carried and used by a single person, as opposed to heavy weapons aka crew served machine guns.

 

[phrodeau]

Other words not found in that document, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Handgun, revolver, assault weapon, elephant gun,... I could go on,

The word that is in that document is ARMS which includes all of the above and more.

And before you say anything about "small arms", the definition of small arms is any weapon that can be carried and used by a single person, as opposed to heavy weapons aka crew served machine guns.

Yes, the list can be very long, and the NRA wouldn't be obliged to do anything about it or change their mission statement one word. Fully automatic weapons are banned, and the NRA gives not a crap about that.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

Yes, the list can be very long, and the NRA wouldn't be obliged to do anything about it or change their mission statement one word. Fully automatic weapons are banned, and the NRA gives not a crap about that.

Because the members aren't asking them to try and remove that ban, something that is an uphill battle. Why spend resources doing something few are asking for that has little to no chance of success.

Instead of fight to repeal laws, they are fighting to stop more laws for being passed to restrict our rights.

 

[about_average]

The political landscape changed and so did the mission of the NRA.

Well, now at least you're getting closer to admitting that the "founded to protect gun rights" was BS.
It was founded to promote marksmanship because so many soldiers in the north were such crappy shots during the civil war. Yes, they also supported the 2A, but that wasn't the reason they were founded.

I'm not sure why you have such a need to rewrite history.

I don't know why you posted the bylaws, I never said the NRA doesn't promote marksmanship and safety. All I can figure is that you're trying to divert attention off on some other thing to hide the fact you don't know why the NRA was founded, or what their primary purpose is today.

 

[NeverEndingMe]

I love gun control as its worked to well in Chicago. Honest, tax paying, hard working people are no longer able to protect themselves as the Monster of Chicago has taken away means for someone to protect his or her family ...

love how the obama kind punish those that follow the law by purchasing guns legally as a means to protect the family. after all, the police and government have failed to do their job so lets hit law biding citizens. more obama retards at work

the obama kind are just mentally retarded

but murder is a good business to be in, in chicago.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

Well, now at least you're getting closer to admitting that the "founded to protect gun rights" was BS.
It was founded to promote marksmanship because so many soldiers in the north were such crappy shots during the civil war. Yes, they also supported the 2A, but that wasn't the reason they were founded.

I'm not sure why you have such a need to rewrite history.

I don't know why you posted the bylaws, I never said the NRA doesn't promote marksmanship and safety. All I can figure is that you're trying to divert attention off on some other thing to hide the fact you don't know why the NRA was founded, or what their primary purpose is today.

Yes in 1871 when the NRA was founded they promoted marksmanship. Yes that was in part due to the fact the southern boys were better shots than the northern troops.

Never denied any of that.

However in 1871 Many citizens of this country were denied ther 2A rights and the NRA from day one was fighting these unjust laws.

IN 1871 no one was trying to ban guns. The first anti gun law wasn't passed until 1936, and that was because of Bonnie and Clyde as well as the Mob in Chicago gunning down people with Tommy Guns.

The NRA today still trains instructors like myself to teach people to shoot. My youngest student was 6, my oldest was 102 Great Great Great Grandson and every generation between firing the rifle he carried in the Ardeinne forest during World War I as part of the lost platoon, or so he claims. That was about 25 years ago though.

Ii didn't post the Bylaws, I posted a section of the bylaws that contains

The purposes and objectives of the National Rifle Association of America

to show you that the purpose of the NRA does include marksmanship training. Which you still deny.

Agreed that you never said that they didn't do it, you said

Marksmanship is a very minor part of their activities these days.

You also said

Even going to their web site there is nothing about marksmanship.

Which when shown it was on the website you changed from nothing to

and yet another

...without digging for it

2 clicks is hardly digging. That's all it takes to find instructors, clubs, training classes, and more.

Oh and guess where I got the bylaws, if you guessed the NRA website you'd be right. Guess what the word marksmanship is there too.

 

[phrodeau]

Mass shootings in the US have sharply escalated ever since Wayne LaPierre took over the NRA. Cause and effect?