Millie's LGBTQ+ lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer or questioning, intersex, asexual, and more discussion thread

[M_K_Babalon]

“Communities” can provide tolerant spaces for many individuals who have never felt accepted as themselves.

When you have been raised within a ‘world view’ that says you are going to hell and are harming those around you simply by being yourself, finding a like minded community can literally save your life.

Going out on a limb here, many of the most visible people in the queer communities are those who have recently found their safe spaces - not unlike how many teens go through a goth phase where they break free of their conditioned upbringing. Sometimes it’s a phase and they go on to find their own more moderate path once they’ve separated themselves from their upbringing, other times the ‘circus’ is the life for them.

So yeah, communities can help entrench people in their own world view, but that’s not “just” what they do.

I'm sure that's not what he was talking about

 

[Gamblnluck]

Really? Because it kind of looks like your issue.

What I take ISSUE with is being expected to do it.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

What I take ISSUE with is being expected to do it.

That's still on you. Why would you have any ownership of what I expect. Conflict is just the difference between expectation and behavior. You can only control your half of the equation.
Let people choose to be offended or take umbrage if you don't meet their expectations. That's on them.

 

[Gamblnluck]

Should the rest of us be forced to call you by your chosen name?

A name as a different issue. But tell you what, you use whatever pronouns you want. If a person tells me they are neither male nor female, because today they decided to identify that way, I will use IT, a singular non sexed pronoun.

 

[djrip]

A name as a different issue. But tell you what, you use whatever pronouns you want. If a person tells me they are neither male nor female, because today they decided to identify that way, I will use IT, a singular non sexed pronoun.

No one has to use any particular pronoun. No one has to smile and nod when another person greets them. No one has to say thank you when a server gives them something. These are all things most of us choose to do out of a desire to make those around us feel comfortable and to avoid making people think we are assholes.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Should the rest of us be forced to call you by your chosen name?

You can call me whatever you want. Find something I haven't been called twice, I challenge you. You don't even have to be nice about it.

I do know many people that are very touchy about their names. David, not Dave, not D man, or Davester, not ever for any reason. I don't need to know why. It's none of my business. But social propriety and a common sense of respect says I call that person David.

In the broad sense, I don't get the whole pronoun thing. It feels kind of nacrissistic to me, so I don't go there personally.

I agree with Jordan Peterson. On an individual basis, I will do my very best to refer to you with respect and in a manner that does not cause you discomfort, Daverino....
I do, however, draw the line at socially, or, heaven forbid, legally MANDATED speech as is now the law in Canada where personal pronouns are concerned.

Thank god and our founders that the US has a constitution that precludes that explicitly; "or abridging the freedom of speech."

 

[lc69hunter]

They are usually larger spaces where the toilet bowls are in single cubicles and the hand washing area is shared.

I worked security at a large nightclub in the city, that was set up like that. We always had one male and one female working security in there, and rarely had problems, except for the fact that the stalls were big enough for two individuals, and some Karen might occasionally complain about the noise of activities going on in there

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Not write. My only vaguely trans writing was full on Futa and totally unrealistic.

My phase was watching TS porn. Normally where the TS actor was with a girl. Is TS even OK as terminology? I identify with what someone else said about being well-meaning but aware that I might say something stupid / offensive.

Em

I think most of us know two things about you; you hardly ever have malicious intent, you're far from stupid. I don't see a problem with watching porn, or writing futanari women. On average most peoples first experience(read awareness) with transwomen is porn. I believe you can seperate fact from fiction enough not to fetishize them based on porn. I know there's a stigma with the trans community about porn star transwomen, and most of that, to me comes off jaded and somewhat elitist. Porn star or not, some do get implants, breast growth is slow, and at some point probably stops. Like bio women, some want more than they got. Some just go straight for it, which sometimes involves a hard set to stretch the skin.

TS is a porn term, like shemale and tranny, or hooker term. Those not of that persuation might not like it. Some might not mind it. I used to go to crossdresser sex parties and it seemed only the cd/transvestites used the term tranny. I could imagine even the porn stars, at least a percentage also doesn't like those terms and it's a work only thing, because you're not really changing the porn industry like that.

This was my attempt at grasping your initial question and follow up explinations. I'd like to add your discription of these actresses could be seen as rude and close along the lines to how other transwomen see them. I know you meant no harm and I wasn't gonna say anything about it for that reason, but thought it might be good to say something.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

I read over many of the posts here. I'm gonna start here saying that I am politically fairly conservative. But I do not agree with that generality.
The way I see it is there are 2 sexes. Male and female. You got that at birth. Maybe you altered it surgically.
How you use what you were born with is completely up to you. You might those of another sex, your own. And you might not care. (sexually fluid but not gender fluid, gender is set.)
Which bathroom/locker room you use depends on what is between your legs, NOT between your ears.

I've discussed this next part with even strangers.::: How you live and what you do in the bedroom is not going to make a difference in my life. Just like how you pray or if. Unless or until it does, it is none of my business what you do in your private life.. It simply does not infringe on my own life.

Now I personally HATE that I am expected to applaud somebody's lifestyle. I am not going to call a person them or they when it is a single person. They do not decide how I address or refer to them. IIf I have personal contact, I'll likely say 'you' or address them by name. If I say 'ma'am" (being polite) and the person says I am a male, I will say sir if warranted. Sometimes I say sir or ma'am to those much younger, like yesterday to the 'girl' serving me a beer in a casino. I told her "Yes, Ma'am!!" when she asked if I was ready for another beer.

If somebody told me directly he/she was neither male nor female and wanted to be called 'they', my answer would be 'NOPE! you are an IT" That is the non-sex default.

Now for HOW a person puts his/her sexuality to use, that is whole other ballgame.

I agree with some of this, the rest.... nah.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I think most of us know two things about you; you hardly ever have malicious intent, you're far from stupid. I don't see a problem with watching porn, or writing futanari women. On average most peoples first experience(read awareness) with transwomen is porn. I believe you can seperate fact from fiction enough not to fetishize them based on porn. I know there's a stigma with the trans community about porn star transwomen, and most of that, to me comes off jaded and somewhat elitist. Porn star or not, some do get implants, breast growth is slow, and at some point probably stops. Like bio women, some want more than they got. Some just go straight for it, which sometimes involves a hard set to stretch the skin.

TS is a porn term, like shemale and tranny, or hooker term. Those not of that persuation might not like it. Some might not mind it. I used to go to crossdresser sex parties and it seemed only the cd/transvestites used the term tranny. I could imagine even the porn stars, at least a percentage also doesn't like those terms and it's a work only thing, because you're not really changing the porn industry like that.

This was my attempt at grasping your initial question and follow up explinations. I'd like to add your discription of these actresses could be seen as rude and close along the lines to how other transwomen see them. I know you meant no harm and I wasn't gonna say anything about it for that reason, but thought it might be good to say something.

That’s really kind and thoughtful feedback

Em

 

[djrip]

I agree with some of this, the rest.... nah.

I think this works for pretty much everything! I'm gonna put it on a T-shirt for when I watch the debate team.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I think this works for pretty much everything! I'm gonna put it on a T-shirt for when I watch the debate team.

Will Rogers said, "If two people agree on everything, then only one of them is doing any thinking."

 

[Gamblnluck]

I was prividing examples of how the word “they” is already in common use as a pronoun for an individual whose gender is indeterminable.

I agree, when you are referring to more than one , use 'they'. But not for a single individual who simply wants to be referred to as a they because they say they want to express a multiple sexuality or be gender fluid. That has almost reached the level of absurdity. I believe that there was a move to change the law in Canada.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I agree, when you are referring to more than one , use 'they'. But not for a single individual who simply wants to be referred to as a they because they say they want to express a multiple sexuality or be gender fluid. That has almost reached the level of absurdity. I believe that there was a move to change the law in Canada.

Why would the reason matter? They is commonly used to refer to both groups and individuals. I've been using it that way since I learned about pronouns in, I think, third grade. And that was a long time ago.

 

[Gamblnluck]

Insistently and persistently misgendering and misnaming someone does constitute harassment, so why shouldn't it be classified as a hate crime?

Is it misgendering if the person decides to be that sex by 'feeling' it? I'm not talking about where the person has gone through SRS.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I have no interest in engaging in good faith arguments with someone who would refer to another human being as "it."

'It' is a non-gendered term. Would you prefer Nul? None? If the person wants to be female, do it. Male? fine. Commit to one or the other. To say you are neither or both is absurd. (Well, unless you truly are NUL.)
You want same sex encounters as well as those of the opposite sex, fine. But HOW you have sex is a totally different issue than WHAT your sex is.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Is it misgendering if the person decides to be that sex by 'feeling' it? I'm not talking about where the person has gone through SRS.

Well, I'm your girl then. There is no decide. I knew something wasn't right when I was six.

I've been doing my best to deal with it ever since, decade and decades.

"Feeling it" kind of describes it, but I'd go further to "Knowing it" at a visceral level. Just like you probably know you're a man, and probably straight, but I'm just assuming. You look at yourself in the mirror in the morning when you shave and there is no doubt about what you see looking back at you. It's right. It's correct. It fits every definition and description of your world.

I my case, it doesn't. I'm a handsome man, I know that. But what I see in the mirror is wrong, and I know it at the same level you know what you see is right. My world never offered me the opportunity to do anything about it. There was zero understanding and compassion for anything like this. Now I just do my best to deal with it.

Part of the problem I see is that being transgender or gender nonconforming seems to have become chique and trendy. There is an ever increasing number of people that are taking advantage of the opportunities(?) being transgender presents, people that are creating their own little subniche to fit in to a 'special' group to validate themselves and garner attention. I can't speak to them individually because it is such a diverse and fluid issue, but in a holistic sense, they are doing far more damage than good for 'the cause' by choosing to die on the pronoun hill rather than perhaps addressing the increasing level of violence against people like me.

I appreciate your keeping this discussion open and civil. It means more than you know that you are willing to listen, even though we disagree.

 

[nice90sguy]

Germain Greer's "outrageous" outrage, which created a flurry on social media back in 2015, regarding the differnece between "identifying as" and "being" a woman, need to be followed, carefully understood, and, whether or not you agree with her, respected.

 

[Escierto]

Another one bites the dust!

 

[M_K_Babalon]

'It' is a non-gendered term. Would you prefer Nul? None? If the person wants to be female, do it. Male? fine. Commit to one or the other. To say you are neither or both is absurd. (Well, unless you truly are NUL.)

That's where I'm at. Just pick one. IDGAF if you change it by the hour, just... fucking pick one. And you can't be something and nothing at the same time, makes no fucking sense. Miss me with that they/them/those, cyberpunk ass pronoun shit.

I've only heard of one person that would be nul, or truely enby. An ex told me a story of a person they knew in college that allegedly had no real gender, or at least genitals. The only things between their legs were a butthole and a urethra, no boobs, just a chest.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Germain Greer's "outrageous" outrage, which created a flurry on social media back in 2015, regarding the differnece between "identifying as" and "being" a woman, need to be followed, carefully understood, and, whether or not you agree with her, respected.

Not familiar with the work, but why?

 

[MillieDynamite]

Actually, it is never to be used about a person, it implies an object. It isn't even used toward animals or plants other than to say it's a dog. It's a flower. It is an issue; it is hate.

It is objectification. I'd hoped this would be a friend discussion, no matter a person's point of view.

Is it misgendering if the person decides to be that sex by 'feeling' it? I'm not talking about where the person has gone through SRS.

 

[Gamblnluck]

Actually, it is never to be used about a person, it implies an object. It isn't even used toward animals or plants other than to say it's a dog. It's a flower. It is an issue; it is hate.

I tend to agree It objectifies rather than describe. (My way of push back on the 'theys/thems who want to be gender neutral or all inclusive.) Technically until very recently, the 'third person neuter' was the default to 'he'.

I find forcing 'they' on me almost as repulsive as a male (based on his genitalia, no matter how he sees himself) demanding access to female locker rooms and the like. Or trans MTF competing in women's sports where they have a massive and unfair advantage. But the 'politically correct' tend to push those 'rights' even if they infringe on others.

I can see providing protection for those with gender dysphoria in schools. Kids will bully the hell out of a boy wearing panties or other feminine attire. But the idea is they'd still have to commit. You can't have the school jock on a bet, decide today he is a girl and must be given access to the girls' locker room as his right.

 

[nice90sguy]

I

Actually, it is never to be used about a person, it implies an object. It isn't even used toward animals or plants other than to say it's a dog. It's a flower. It is an issue; it is hate.

It is objectification. I'd hoped this would be a friend discussion, no matter a person's point of view.

I found that post hard to read without quotes around the "it"s. But now I get it, and totally agree.

There was an awful breed of misogynist in 1960's and 1970's Britain that called women "it". The film "Alfie" with Michael Caine playing one of those characters is worth watching, just to see how much has changed since then. (In the way we speak)

 

[AlexBailey]

I agree, when you are referring to more than one , use 'they'. But not for a single individual who simply wants to be referred to as a they because they say they want to express a multiple sexuality or be gender fluid. That has almost reached the level of absurdity. I believe that there was a move to change the law in Canada.

I’m imagining you coming across someone whom you seriously cannot clock - you just can’t place their gender.

It would be funny hearing you trip over yourself trying to pick a pronoun like the “Pat” skit from Saturday Night Live.


Would interacting with an androgynous person be uncomfortable for you?