Millie's LGBTQ+ lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer or questioning, intersex, asexual, and more discussion thread

[Kelliezgirl]

Please don’t infer that one plaintiff in a legal case represents everyone within a particular very loose-knit group.

This is about a major political party attempting to pass legislation. No one is inferring anything.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Yes, it’s quite odd that a two month old article From a foreign country wasn’t foremost in my thoughts.

Would you like more examples of people claiming misgendering someone is a hate crime and worthy of punishment? They are rather common, I just happened to chose one that involved an author I thought most of us would be familiar with.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Take another look at what I wrote:

———
Hmm, to be freed from empathy… to know you are correct and they are wrong, and to intuitively know what anyone’s chromosomes are whoever they may be. That must be very freeing for you.

———


“one” grammatically infers a singular individual and is grammatically correct. Do you disagree?

And I agree with @Devinter when he said how it can be difficult to be clear who you are writing about when writing same sex characters. Have you ever written a threesome? It’s a bit of a game of twister.

Not in the context you are using it in. Anyone doesn't necessarily refer to the same person as "they".
Your statement could just as easily mean that person A disagrees with persons B and C (who would be referred to as "they" in this case) and the "anyone" would be using the definition of "One person chosen without thought; anybody".

 

[Omenainen]

As writers, I am sure we've all experienced this to some extent. When you write a scene with many people involved, indicating who's who becomes more challenging, and keeping track of individuals through pronouns for the reader isn't as simple anymore. It's already noticeable the moment you have two men or two women. Sure end up using "the older X" and "the blonde X" and so on a lot more.

And to think that we Finns (as well as Filipinos it seems) can do all that without gendered pronouns!

In Sweden, he is "han" and she is "hon", so we just added a brand new third word "hen" for gender neutrality not that long ago. It works for both, and it does not mean "they", which is advantageous because if you're writing a scene with just one transgender person then "hen" will always refer to that specific individual. I find this solution to be quite solid. Can recommend!

My kid is learning Swedish now (as we all do around here), and out of laziness refers to everyone as “hen” unless specifically forced to do otherwise. Children are the future

Honestly, it just goes to show that for people from languages like ours, going through “oh yeah, the gender thing, well which gender is this, and which word was it again” is an added layer of complexity that just seems redundant.

I’ve said this before but I think we should make Finnish the world language. No gendered anything and I’d have an advantage over all you guys

 

[Zrosey]

Dysphoria fucking hurts. I was borderline suicidal for most of my teens, putting the ‘guy’ costume on every day

Yep! I was getting beyond "borderline suicidal", but I didn't know of any other way to deal with my pain.

( I hope to not de-rail the ongoing convos by replying to earlier posts, but so much here relates)

 

[Bramblethorn]

And I agree with @Devinter when he said how it can be difficult to be clear who you are writing about when writing same sex characters. Have you ever written a threesome? It’s a bit of a game of twister.

I've written a couple here, both having one "I" and two "she"s, and TBH I've never found it as hard as it's made out. Context and occasional names go a long way.

 

[Devinter]

My kid is learning Swedish now (as we all do around here), and out of laziness refers to everyone as “hen” unless specifically forced to do otherwise. Children are the future

You might know this already, but if you do not, you might find it pleasing that the gender-neutral "hen" has become the standard go-to choice here in Sweden for children in day-care and the first couple of years of schooling. The idea is to normalize this type of vocabulary, and to let children just be children, without pushing any specific gender roles onto them.

I strongly believe that in just one or two more generations, acceptance of people just being themselves will have increased tenfold, and with that, I hope that we start looking at people on an individual level much more so than put them into categories and folders in which they may not feel entirely comfortable.

 

[AlexBailey]

Oddly, you skipped right over the part where people want to make this a "hate crime" punishable by prison time.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1825391/JK-Rowling-Labour-Party-transgender-hate-crime

At first read that seems too far, it’s the first I’ve read of that enhancement. Hopefully it will be reflected upon and reconsidered if it’s truly out of line.

It’s still not representative of the whole LGBTQ population.

 

[AlinaX]

British media (and politics mostly) is extremely trans-hostile, so treat news sources with caution, but...

Insistently and persistently misgendering and misnaming someone does constitute harassment, so why shouldn't it be classified as a hate crime?

Treat people with respect, and don't assume you know them better than they know themselves.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Would you like more examples of people claiming misgendering someone is a hate crime and worthy of punishment? They are rather common, I just happened to chose one that involved an author I thought most of us would be familiar with.

I'd like to not be patronized.

There are some very touchy, sensitive issues regarding this subject that society is going to have to work out with respectful, inclusive dialogue. Whether or not to treat people with the courtesy to respect their self identity is not one of them.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I'd like to not be patronized.

There are some very touchy, sensitive issues regarding this subject that society is going to have to work out with respectful, inclusive dialogue. Whether or not to treat people with the courtesy to respect their self identity is not one of them.

Then perhaps you should try to make an honest, good faith argument rather than deride those you disagree with as screaming about being oppressed.
If you want people to respect you and your opinion you ought to show them some respect as well.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

The only thing you can trust the Express to get right is that Diana is indeed dead. (they still manage to produce a front page headline about her multiple times a week...)

Every story claiming 'teacher called pupil by wrong gender and got fired!!!' has had way more to it (generally a long ongoing history of ignoring school policies), and the person fired is usually funded by an outfit called 'Christian Voice', whose often-unqualified lawyers are quick to insult and missed the biblical memos about 'love thy neighbour' and 'judge not, lest...'

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

The only thing you can trust the Express to get right is that Diana is indeed dead. (they still manage to produce a front page headline about her multiple times a week...)

Every story claiming 'teacher called pupil by wrong gender and got fired!!!' has had way more to it (generally a long ongoing history of ignoring school policies), and the person fired is usually funded by an outfit called 'Christian Voice', whose often-unqualified lawyers are quick to insult and missed the biblical memos about 'love thy neighbour' and 'judge not, lest...'

Strange how entire religious denominational ecosystems have been created explicitly excluding those numerous verses while they are so prevalent as core tenets in most religious philosophies.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Then perhaps you should try to make an honest, good faith argument rather than deride those you disagree with as screaming about being oppressed.
If you want people to respect you and your opinion you ought to show them some respect as well.

I have no interest in engaging in good faith arguments with someone who would refer to another human being as "it."

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I have no interest in engaging in good faith arguments with someone who would refer to another human being as "it."

Then don't be surprised when other people fail to afford you the respect you deny to others.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Then don't be surprised when other people fail to afford you the respect you deny to others.

I'm good with that. But I will note that I did not in any way make reference to you. You chose to take umbrage.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I'm good with that. But I will note that I did not in any way make reference to you. You chose to take umbrage.

I didn't take umbrage. I made an observation.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I'm good with that. But I will note that I did not in any way make reference to you. You chose to take umbrage.

Taking umbrage is always a choice, and in my opinion, never a good one.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Taking umbrage is always a choice, and in my opinion, never a good one.

Right, we say people "Get angry" as though it were something that happens to them unbidden, but that they "Take umbrage," which implies it is a conscious active choice.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Why do people think parents are stupid? An astute parent will know before you do - it can only come as a surprise if they don't know their children, surely?

It of course doesn't help if you fell asleep watching a trans porn dvd late at night.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

I think the "communties" do little to increase tolerance, they just make people more entrenched in their own world-view.

They can be their own worst enemy.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

It's not about 'trying to live as...' It's about finding a sense of normalcy with who you are.
I've used the analogy before, and it's unfortunately the best one I have, but try to imagine being forced to wear a Halloween costume 24/7. The world will never see the real you. You will never experience the truth of who you are because this façade precludes all else.

Thank you for trying to understand.

I don't think one needs to be trans or any kinds queer to get that analogy.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I don't think one needs to be trans or any kinds queer to get that analogy.

Unfortunately, you'd be amazed ...

 

[Kelliezgirl]

It of course doesn't help if you fell asleep watching a trans porn dvd late at night.

It would be pretty hard to miss that clue.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

That works wonderfully in buildings or places where a single bathroom (ie one toilet, one sink) makes sense. For larger facilities it's challenging. My office has two bathrooms that are each "singles" and they are unisex.

And that's most of the unisex bathrooms in the usa. Usually a small place with one or two and it's out of convenience. There's a bar or two that has them, and I know of a lgbt coffee co-op that does. The closest thing to a large access bathroom, that I know of/seen in person(like say a Walmart or stadium), that's basically unisex, are the family bathrooms, just about every mall around here has.